(With apologies to Leni Refenstahl)
I have to build a temporary stair for construction access on to the porch roof. About to start a major renovation of the attic, and need a way to get material in and out – I’ll build a doubled-doored dormer out of the main roof, centered under the ventilator.
Drew up what I needed, made my material list, but BORING – it just didn’t “sing”, ya’ know? Homeowner left it in my capable hands . . .
Hour or so later this morning, had a Eureka moment. This design will be much more arty and fun to build. Lumber ordered; gets here tomorrow. Plus, it was $732 of wood vs $1031 (6x6s are pricey).
I know the balustrade doesn’t meet code – it doesn’t have to.
Forrest – having to commute across the street
Replies
McDesign -- why wouldn't you just scaffold the challenge with 6' walkthrough and have a great staging/work platform -- seems like the stairs are over kill when a ladder would do
Well, I suspect the stair will be used for a while - 8-12 months, perhaps, and the client expects better aesthetics than scaffolding. Other additions are in the works for the house. The stair is going to be "external egress" for the new attic room until a 2-story addition is put on in place of that closed-in back porch.
<EDIT> Also, jus' li'l ol' me has to carry down all the demoed stuff, and all the new material and stuff up there (800 finished square feet) - stairs are just too easy.
Oh - and I fall on ladders ;-)
Forrest
Edited 11/28/2006 8:12 pm by McDesign
Consider these facts (I am surmising here . . . ):
1. Forrest works solo.
2. There's gonna be a lot of stuff going up those stairs, and down, as well.
3. Lugging stuff up and down ladders is harder than doing it on stairs.
Forrest,
Design 2 looks good. How about scaffolding that include stairs with an extra tier fitted with a yard arm and a power wench. Tile, sheetrock, mud, etc. igets real heavy going up steps. (Built a solar roof in D.C. on Capitol Hill years ago and used scaffolding and a come-along.) Whatever you decide consider the timeframe. The expense of your egress will save in the long term.Do you have any finished pics, or pics of the joists,of the Lusby job?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck - you mean these pix? Wasn't sure; thought you saw these - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=81690.38.
Just didn't want to use scaffolding - may try a winch solution. Maybe just a wench to carry stuff for me!
Forrest
Forrest,I did see those pics. Thanx. I had a long weekend in LA. Orange Beach. I guess I was looking for the wisteria.
How are the temp steps coming?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Yeah - I laughed with my FIL about being "careful" with that wisteria. To plant it around her, you just throw a piece at the ground and run. He says that particular varietal is relatively non-invasive, but that big braided trunk is only 6 years old!
Got the wood delivered and sorted here; making the cutting drawings for all the pieces - I'll cut and mark all the pieces first, (in the shop; it's raining) then move 'em across the street and assemble in place.
If I build it right on screen first, the assembly is fast and fun.
Forrest -
Get the wench (Sam) in the new deodorant commercial (hey dude, how about some help moving this chair). Cute ad first couple of times but our ABC station ran it about 6 times during the news last night.
Ummm - okay!
Still looking for the wench . . .
Got the roof sheeted and blackjacked the seams. That should shed water until, my favorite, SEAL-O-FLEX!
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Forrest
Edited 12/14/2006 5:28 pm by McDesign
This was a trade off here. If you look above the ridge of the back roof, you can see what will be the rake facia board of the shed dormer. The plan was to hide it, but the client wanted a 9' ceiling upstairs. That pushed it up the 12" over the old ridge.
A compromise, at best.
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Forrest
Edited 12/14/2006 5:33 pm by McDesign
Those "I wanna's" seem to overcome good practices all too often.
Did you cut the shingles out under those rake walls?
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."-- Thomas Sowell
No - my 2x6s each bolts flat through them into a rafter.
Not the best, but expedient. I'll slice them after the fact for step flashing.
Forrest
Forrest,
Looks good. Can you do a false gable on the front as well?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Here's how I do it -
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=83028.1
Forrest
Read that and thanked you, already
Thanks again
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."-- Thomas Sowell
Here I am today. Got all sheathed, flashed, one side sided and trimmed. Pod people delivered the POD; all the attic stuff (a significant quantity) will be downloaded the stairs, into the POD, and stored away 'til I'm finished
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View ImageForrest
Edited 12/18/2006 5:40 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/18/2006 5:41 pm by McDesign
Here I am at COB today - buttoned up for rain - I'll build the French door frames in the shop tomorrow. Trimmed out, caulked, and primed.
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Forrest
Edited 12/20/2006 5:28 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/20/2006 5:29 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/20/2006 5:30 pm by McDesign
The stair came out very nice. Good job.
Thanks - it's been darn handy, and will REALLY be when I load the pod and start the attic renovation. Still haven't even been in the house on this job - hate interfering with folks with construction mess and traffic.
Forrest
Forrest,As always, looks good. How tall are the doors going to be?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The doors are each nominally 36X81 - normal French doors. That FO is 82" X 72.25". Looks like they would be shorter, doesn't it? I'm always surprised how trim scale fools the eye.
Forrest
Edited 12/21/2006 9:01 am by McDesign
Okay - holidays over - back to work. Dad and I completely emptied the attic this AM, into the pod. I got the top coat of trim white on; primed the French doors. I don't cut in the glass on them - work it in the crack and scrape it. Cut in the top coat.
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Funny crooked chimney; one of three that will hopefully be re-lined
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Forrest - finishing up this thread. I'll start a new one for the interior work; gotta' think up a catchy title
Edited 1/2/2007 7:45 pm by McDesign
Edited 1/2/2007 7:45 pm by McDesign
Edited 1/2/2007 7:46 pm by McDesign
Edited 1/2/2007 7:48 pm by McDesign
forrest.... cool.. i just found this thread....
when we going inside the attic ?
ah... i see
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/2/2007 8:01 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks - I need a good title. Something like . . .
Well, I'm stumped.
Forrest - DW says maybe, "Up in the Rooftop?"
Forrest,Looking good. That's a good way to seal the glass. I try to prime and one coat before glazing. Looking forward to your new thread.
try http://www.thesaurus.com Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Thanks - I'm going over now and get my new laser(!) spinning, and make an elevation map of the existing floor and joists. Oughta look like the Himalayas.
I think I'll start over the "highest" downstairs room, sister the joists and make a screwed, glued, and blocked Advantech platform, then prop and spread out from there.
Forrest
If this remodel work inside is all routine stuff, and the worthwhile topic is the large amound of floor leveling you need to do, you might call the thread continuation "Taming the Himalayas."
<Taming the Himalayas>
Interesting!
Forrest
Here's some "leveling the Himalayas". This area is about 1/8 of the entire attic, which will be nearly 900 finished sq. ft.
I set up my new rotating laser at a reference point 9" above the desired top plane of the joists, and measured from the laser beam down to the top plates at each new joist location. I subtracted 2" from that number, so as to notch my new 2x8x16's to 6-1/2" to 7-1/2" on the seat cuts. Floor is screwed and glued, dead level and solid as a rock.
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The new joists are ~12" OC, with every other one sistered to the old full 2x6 ceiling joists. 2" of sag in some of those! The tall wall sits on a double 11" LVL; all joists sit on the top plates of the 16x16' room below.
Walls were laid out by putting the laser on its side and establishing a true vertical plane.
This laser is a really fun tool!
Forrest - workin' on Saturday
Edited 1/6/2007 6:00 pm by McDesign
Forrest,What kind of deflection do you get spanning 2x8's 16'? (I realize they are sistered)Is that a chimney at the right side of the photo? I guess you'll have to do some draft stop there.Looks good.Chusk Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The handbook I'm using (from JLC) says 2x8 SPF 12" OC will span 15'7", even without the old 2x6 sistering. Thats for a 10# dead load; a 40# live load.
Having catwalked on them, I can say that the old 2x6 (unsistered) have half the measured deflection from me standing in the middle of them. With the sag, the 2x6 + 2x8 combination beam is almost 10" deep in the center of some of them.
Forrest
Forrest,Sounds and looks like a stout floor system.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Could you recheck those figures? I looked at the IRC 2003 because that seems like a big span to me.The attached table shows a max span of 13'6" for SPF #2, 12" oc with 40/10 loading and L/360 deflection. I wouldn't expect the JLC book to be 100% in agreement with the IRC, but a difference of that much makes me wonder who is right.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I went out to the office to get my book. Basically, you're right.
This is from the 2004 US Span Book for Major Lumber Species (got it with the JLC Best Practices manual).
40/10 load; 2x8#2 12" OC Hem/Fir is rated to span 13'2"
30/10 load; 2x8#2 12" OC Hem/Fir is rated to span 14'6"
My actual clear spans are right at 15' in these areas. In my noodling, I added in the existing old SYP 2x6 24" OC as 2x8s, to reduce the sort-of-actual OC to 8". I am confident this gives me a 40/10 L/360 span pretty close to my actual of 15'.
Basically, doubling the number of joists (24" OC vs 12") took the allowable 40/10 L/360 span from 10'2" to 13'2". I SWAGGED that adding half again the number of joists (going from 12" OC to 8") would kick up the allowable span half as much, or about a foot and a half, to 14'8". And, the every-other-one combo joists are really deep in the middle because of the sag in the old ones
Close enough, I said. Actually though, these rooms will be sleeping / study rooms and some conditioned storage, so 30/10 is probably the right design target.
My lumberyard doesn't carry SYP 2x8s (which would give me the extra foot of span over SPF), and I just hate getting big stuff at Home Despot, who has SYP 2x8s. Didn't want to lose the headroom and screw up the stair going with 10s.
Forrest - getting my ducks in a row
I see, I was misunderstading you. I thought the span was for just the 2x8's, not the total system.It's amazing to buildings that *should* not be standing, at least according to the code books.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Just out of curiosity what can one expect to pay for a POD. I may need to move in about two years and was wondering.
I've got the sheet in the shop; I'll check it tomorrow. Seeing lots more PODS here. Evidently they started in FL, and are spreading. These folks found it cheaper to load it, and then have it stored in the warehouse rather than leave it in the yard.
Forrest
Forrest,As always. Nice work. Plumber and electrician are almost finished on Small Addition.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
That is sweet! Instead of tearing it down when done and seeing that the stairs are so nice, you could almost make a french door on the roof with a dormer stepping out on the "deck" you built for material removal. That or after you are finished lower it to the back door for a nice deck. I wasn't sure what that green structure was to the left of the door, maybe a shed, could move that.
Semper Fi
<make a french door on the roof with a dormer stepping out on the "deck">
YES! - That is the short-term plan, until the 2-story addition goes on. The next work after the attic re-do will be to add a 22x18 bedroom suite out the back of that gabled 1-story section to the right of the pic, and turn that existing bedroom area into two baths and a closet.
Nice!
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
Thanks -
My good call, all layout and cutting at the shop - I'm also laying out all join lines, and it seems like I go back to ACAD for another dimension after every board!
Price you pay for cuteness - lots of dimensions and angles that you can't easily calculate - have to get them off the model.
Forrest - cutting away
Forrest,How 'bout an update and some pics? I know you ar pre fabbing the stairs in your shop. Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Will do - almost finished yesterday; ran out of daylight. I'll get some pix in tonight.
It's cool - it feels like an old railroad trestle!
Forrest
That looks cool. Go for it. Im curious, what program do you have to draw that?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
Thanks - I drew it in AutoCAD - I'm embarrassed to say I only use its 2D drafting capabilities - all I've needed so far.
The difficulty in this design was that there are no vertical members or right-angle intersections. The only way to build it was to cut each piece to the computer drawing, and draw lines on each piece where it intersected other members. Assembly was a matter of overlaying pieces to the lines, clamping, and screwing them together.
No kidding, I assembled the entire precut stairway, 18' high and 22' long, and only used a screwgun and 2" & 3" screws. No cutting on site was done until I had to notch a couple of stair treads to clear balustrade posts.
It took (22) 8-1/2X11 sheets to dimension all the pieces and cut them - that's why I had the wood delivered to the shop, so I could run to the computer for more dimensions all the time.
Fun project, and I look forward to the client getting back from vacation and seeing it.
Forrest - big dormer is next
Here's what I was talking about on the geometry - my pencil lines aren't too visible, though.
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Forrest
Okay - pix finally. Probably too many, but I'm really pleased with the result! It will be a pleasure to work up and down this rather than going through the house all winter.
Here's the rear elevation -
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Here's the end pylon, with my "fantasy of bracing"
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Here's the middle pylon's "bridge". To align all this, I placed the (6) pier blocks on hard-tamped soil, then triangulated around the little storage building to get them all X-Y perfect (in plan view), ignoring elevation.
Then I shot the pier seats, and cut the stumpy vertical 6x6s at various lengths to make the horizontal members of the (3) bridges at the same elevation. I slotted in a vertical 2x10x12"; the angled support members screw into those on either side. Remember, no bolts in the entire structure at all - just 2" & 3" screws!
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This single fence section was already here; I braced it and hinged it.
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Gate open, headed up. (23) 52" wide steps; 10" x 7-3/4" rise; 1-1/8" nosing overhang
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Top landing
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Top step to roof plane - yes, I used lots of roofing cement under and around the screws. These boards are spaced apart for drainage into the gutter beneath.
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From the roof; showing the handrail blend into the roof - this also acts as bracing for the structure.
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Forrest - making magic again!
How come the final project looks exactly like the drawing? ....or is it an as-built dwg? ;-)
Cool design, great execution.......I like the forethought that allowed for assembly w/ screws only. Cool idea w/ the slotted-in 2x10 at the base.
All in all.....nice job.
Thanks!
Actually, those little double-pointed horizontal 2x4s about 2' off the ground weren't in the drawings. I had some scrap, and thought I should cover the end grain top of the slotted-in 2x10s with an egregious detail.
Forrest
Forrest,Very nice work. It does sort of look like a RR trestle. This will save time in the long run. You won't have to fight 4 X 8 sheet goods going through the house, dinging woodwork and knocking lamps over. (just kidding).
The 2 X 10 Supports are a great alternative to vertical posts. Did you use SS screws? That ACQ lumber corodes fasteners quickly.It is 27' here in Columbus. Waiting on the plumber.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck - I used the GripRite (green) posi-drive screws for new treated decking. Found a huge install torque difference between the merely pointed ones and the ones with a little slotted "tapping" tip.
Actually, those long legs of the pylons are just 2x6s - the 2x10 at the bottom is only a foot long, as a mounting surface.
Hope the plumber gets there. Is it a freezing-related problem? It was 21º here near Atlanta this morning. The rats and mice have moved in!
Forrest
Forrest,No frezing problem. The plumber has to start the rough-in on "Small Addition. I have used GripRite square drive.Maybe you should start a Christmas lights thread.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
At the speed he works , he'd have half of Ga covered up by Sunday and the space station would fone home and say " hey! turn off them damm lights"..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Amen!Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Had a "whimsical" solution to a design issue today; client went for it. Building this dormer, I have to use a shed roof because (4) skylights go above it, through the main roof. But, the house is all gables and hips.
So - this:
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The plan is to use Seal-O-Flex on the 1/4"/ft flat roof, then float this Post-Modern gable slightly above it (it will be braced from the back). The "porthole" is goes through the triangle. This should look interesting from the back yard.
Got the walls lined and leveled, and some joists installed today; hope to button it up tomorrow.
Forrest
Forrest,
Nice dormer and design work. Post your roof plan and someone may have a solution to get away from the shed detail. Maybe cut a lower roof pitch.
Side bar: If you want to salvage some archcitectural features from your Uncle's home, let me know.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
This morning - Didn't even drive the truck home last night - it's quicker to walk. My house is just above and to the right of the truck.
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Handy work area -
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Forrest
Edited 12/14/2006 12:55 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/14/2006 12:56 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/14/2006 12:56 pm by McDesign
Lunchtime -
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Forrest
Edited 12/14/2006 12:58 pm by McDesign
Forrest, way cool. That would even look swell inside a house!
How long were the stringers/carriages? Looks like a long run.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Duane - Thanks!
The carriages are about 24' long; each one is two pieces of 2x12, 12' or 14' long, with the joints staggered at the middle pylon posts.
Forrest - puttin' up Christmas lights
Very nice If you have to be working there for a long time .Why don't you rig up a boom and pully for hauling up some of your stuff.
Today got the second coat of color on.
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Got the door frame and sill and sill flashing in; some initial demo and layout - whoooo this house is crooked! Good thing I've got my new Christmas laser.
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Got the top coat on my favorite flat roof miracle, SEAL-O-FLEX! Over 3/4 Advantec, this time. Screwed a rabbeted and beveled TREX 2x2 around the edge this time to reinforce it. Seems to be a good idea.
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Forrest
Edited 12/28/2006 5:56 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/28/2006 5:57 pm by McDesign
Edited 12/28/2006 5:59 pm by McDesign
Cool...but I am still wondering about that stove pipe tha was spewing smoke, when you started..is that a common thing? That sumbitch looked liked a castasrophe waitin for a place to begin.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
That was a high-tech furnace chimney on a cold day - nice, huh?
Forrest
Scary stupid huh?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Maybe it would not be so good for construction, but what about a sprial stair unit?
The stair you drew is so dominating related the the rear elevation.
For construction, scaffolding is avaliable with steps, and hoist systems.
Edited 12/7/2006 11:10 am ET by txlandlord
Edited 12/7/2006 11:10 am ET by txlandlord
Spiral would be smaller, but useless for construction materials. Scaffolding is ugly, and the emergency egress needs to stay until a 2-story addition is put on where the stair sits.
You're right about it dominating the rear of the house, which is sort of why I wanted the thing to be "sculptural".
Finished moments ago, and it looks sweet - pix in daylight tomorrow.
Forrest