Non-union contractors sometimes seem to be secretive about this kind of thing, so I realize that I’m posting this thread at the risk of getting laughed off the forum. My curiosity is getting the best of me today though, so here I go. <!—-><!—-><!—->
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How much do you pay your highest paid carpenter, and why do think he’s worth that much?<!—-><!—->
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Pay scale is public knowledge in the union:<!—-><!—->
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Residential union scale here is $18.40 and the total package including benefits is $27.16. Commercial union scale here is $24.74 and the total package with benefits is 35.63. Foremen receive an additional $1/hr. General foremen receive an additional $1.50/hr.<!—-><!—->
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There are a few things I’m wondering about: Is it possible for me to make more money non-union? Also, what if I want to start a non-union construction company? What kind of pay scales should I enter into my business plan?<!—-><!—->
–T
Replies
I know i will get beat up for this but here it goes. Bust the union. They had a time but it is past . Fight for yourself instead.
If you get beat up, it won't be by me. Everyone's entitled to their own opiniion. BTW, how much could I expect to get fighting for myself?-T
Hey,
I base all my estimates on $30.00 per hour. But what I like best is I pick what I want to do and I call my own hours. Working for yourself won't make you rich, but that's the last reason I work for myself.
Russell,
Allegan, Michigan
I don't know anything about carp labor rates.
But if the foreman has anykind of real responsibility then their preminum should be much more. Like 20% maybe.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Union labor rates for the carpenters union are about the same here. But most union carpenters built concrete forms and finish concrete. The masons union isn't active here as far as I know. So lots of union carpenters want to leave concrete behind and learn how to be real carpenters. We have so many apply at my company everytime a big commercial job finishes up. We are a residential remodeling company.
So if I were to hire a union carpenter (mason actually) I would pay them $16/hour plus benefits since virtually nothing they know applies to residential remodeling. If they were competent residential remodeling carpenters, then we pay comparable to the union scale. But our benefits are different. We have health insurance, the employee cover 25%, we cover the rest. We have a simple IRA plan, we match 100% the day the employee starts, so we don't have time tobecome vested. We also have vacation and holiday pay that the union doesn't have. We also supply company vans and all power tools.
So here is how my costs work per hour:
$26/hour
$2/hour for medicare and ss (7.65%)
$7.28/hour for w/c
$1.50/hour for g/l
$1.84/hour for health
$.70/hour for retirement
$1.95/hour for company van
$.50/hour for company tools
$.20/hour for company phone
$.50/hour for adminstrative cost for payroll
$.25/hour for education
$.75/hour for holiday pay (8 days)
$.50/hour for vacation pay
$2.35/hour for lost time for meetings etc.
$46.32/hour is about my cost.
I hope that answers your question. Is it more than you expected?
Thanks, that's very helpful. I wasn't including some of those things as overhead benefits though, but as company company overhead:
$2/hour for medicare and ss (7.65%)
$7.28/hour for w/c
$.50/hour for company tools
$.20/hour for company phone
$.50/hour for adminstrative cost for payroll
$.25/hour for education
$.50/hour for vacation pay
$2.35/hour for lost time for meetings etc.
I'm not sure what you were refering to by:
$1.50/hour for g/l
At $26/hr before benefits though, it sure seems like you pay pretty good for a remodeling company. If I was in your area, I would probably want to work for you to.-T
My highest paid guy is at $32 with benefits. I have 2 that are 2 bucks less. And down from there. We already figured out how we get along so no matter what I paid you wouldn't work here. Hope this helps. DanT
You pay 28% for WC?
U Hiring?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Not at the moment, tired of Pittsburg lol? You can come out here and live with cows and tractors. I know you would like it! :-) DanT
He just wants to make $32.00 an hour. Me too. Where's the application?
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
Man, you would be bored to death working for me. No travel to speak of, we work bankers hours (7:30=4) and little overtime. 4 hours OT is a big deal with us. On top of that you have to wash and organize your truck regularly. No more all night jobs, weekends etc. You would hate it. Besides the drive from your new house would be long for daily commute lol. DanT
Yea I'd hate all that free time. LOL I keep the bankers other hours. The satelite radio makes any commute small I love that baby. I might have to work for you for a week just so I can get my truck washed and organiized.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5MG1ZfFiZ8&mode=related&search= Mercy now
$1.50/hr for g/l is general liability insurance. We're billed by on wages by our insurer.
28% for w/c is pretty much the going rate for class 5645, class 5437 is slightly less. My state has the second highest in the nation.
The wage of $26/hour is top of the line. I have paid as high at $28. But mostly we're in the $22 to $25/hour. Laborers are $15 to $20/hour. I think we're a little higher than the going rate. But we've had our last few employees come to work for us because of our wages and benefits. I get to pick who I want, not just settle for what I can get!
"I have paid as high at $28."
I'm curious, what would make you willing to pay that much?-T
"I'm curious, what would make you willing to pay that much?"
It really doesn't matter what you pay someone as long as you can bill enough to make a profit. I bill at $50-55 an hour. So I typically make $20ish per man per hour. The only issue is trying to get a full 8 hours production along with material movement, cleaning and storing equipment, paperwork etc.
Also included in each job are sales costs, overhead of all types etc that the $20 must pay for. Material mark ups are an area where a lot of guys miss money that could help pay better wages and attract better help. We mark up material at 30-40% and subs at 20. DanT
when you find a way to get a full 8 hours a day of production out of a guy that is only working 8 hours, let me know you're secret.
I'd like to think I get around 7 hours of real production, reality is probably down around 6 - 6 1/2 by time you factor in material runs, set up, roll up, clean up, the wife calling, smoke breaks, etc.
you forgot the 3 times a day in the jon, the advil breaks, the zoning out and staring at you while you re-state what you just said and then initiate the task yourself as a primer. I would say 6 hrs out of 8 worked is what I see."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
>>you forgot the 3 times a day in the jon, the advil breaks, the zoning out and staring at you while you re-state what you just said and then initiate the task yourself as a primer. I would say 6 hrs out of 8 worked is what I see.Hahahaha..I see I'm not the only one with a 17 yr-old son working for me..You have, of course, outlawed ear-buds, right?
had a guy who likes his I pod. never heard me when I was trying to talk to him. on the otherhand, he was an excellent worker and a real problem solver, very safety minded. (engineer backround) he is the only one I would let do that. otherwise, I see it as a safety issue."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I always thought taking unauthorized breaks and making personal calls during working hours was stealing.-T
Most of my guys don' t eat lunch or just eat on the run. Not because I demand it but they just seem to fall into that pattern. But I agree that 6 1/2-7 is probably about it. I am a stickler for clean trucks (we provide them) so based on weather we clean them every couple weeks or so and you have to allow time for that too.
One thing we did a while back was create a shop guy. He has a 6 cyl 1/2 ton pickup with a ladder rack and he does material runs. Every day at 1PM he calls every crew to see what they need for tommorow. Then goes and gets it. It keeps the crews from dropping everything to go get 4 2"X4"s or such. He also will make a special delivery if they need it.
To make the position of value he keeps the shop clean, runs the pony motor equipment monthly, mows the lawn at the shop, waxes all the trucks once a year and does oil changes on the trucks and equipment. And we are able to send him out and do a small job occasionally like power washing or change a faucet etc. I really believe this move amounted to an extra hour a day per man added to production. DanT
I like that idea Dan. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
What about you Jim? Although I live elsewhere, I work in South Bend. You're in Michigan aren't you? You might not be too far from me. What's the most you ever paid one of your framers when you had employees?
Also, why did you do so? Yeah, the guy was a hard worker, but so are a lot of other guys around here. What separated your highest paid guy from the competition?
-T
Edited 11/1/2007 6:19 pm ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
I was paying my guys $25 per hour, paid holidays, full health coverage and time and a half for overtime: unlimited. I warned them that they should work sixty hour weeks and bank the extra cash. I warned them that they had never saw bad times but they will. They thought doing residential carpentry was a good solid job/career. Well, as you all know, Michigan's recession started while Bill Clinton was still in office and it's only gotten steadily worse year after year. I'm not in Michigan anymore. I took some very substantial losses getting away from there. I still have some lake lots for sale and a condo has a closing date but I'm not counting on it closing.I can get journeymen carpenter right now in MI for ten bucks an hour on a 1099. 15 will get you a pretty good foreman. I quit warning carpenters about where their "businesses" will end up. I spend twenty something years specializing in custom frames and now I wouldn't pick up a hammer in MI for what they are offering. I made ten times more money twenty years ago. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Thanks, no wonder there's almost no residential work in the union around here. It's almost all commercial. Those are the non-union residential wages I had suspected. How can any contractor compete while paying employees on a W2 in a market like that?
I'll say one thing, the economy around here sure forces every carpenter to reach their full potential if they want to keep working. It sounds like things are only getting worse right now. I should probably plan on moving also - especially if I ever want to start a successful residential shop of my own.-T
Anyone have an idea of what part of the country residential carpenters are considered the most valuable?-T
THats too true, I am hearing wages now that make me want to choke. One of the guys that used to frame with me is now making $12 an hour with a 10-99 at the end of the year. And he just about frame anything. That also means supplying your own tools and transportation.
I have been very fortunate to not have to be in the job market for a long time. I would move before I take a hourly cut like that without thinking twice.
A friend that I have known 20+ years recently moved to a town around Seattle somewhere, got a job with a union residential framing company starting at $32 an hour as a journeyman. His qualifications were knowing what the parts of a stick built wall were, thats it. He helped me a few times and was a great laborer and nothing more. Unbelievable, he called me minutes after being hired to get my tail out there.
Nashville TN pays decent money too, working on my cousins place I got an offer for $25 an hour, framing additions and new builds. But I would have to run a crew and thats not what I want to do. I tried and failed many times.
I have one full time guy at $19 an hour, and one part time at $16. I would pay them time and a half over 40 but I can't get them there that long in a week. Saturdays no matter hours is time and a half if not more. We get the job done at lunch and I planned a full day everyone gets paid a full day.
I used to take a job and split it down with whoever worked everyday. Say a billed a new frame at 10k, divide that by how many guys I had. Usually me and three others. I took $200 more for generator gas, and thats it. We would all get a 10-99 from the GC's we framed for. I got top production out of my guys then. But I was getting the shaft, I was doing the running, bidding, meetings, all tool expenses. I slowly woke up.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
"A friend that I have known 20+ years recently moved to a town around Seattle somewhere, got a job with a union residential framing company starting at $32 an hour as a journeyman. His qualifications were knowing what the parts of a stick built wall were, thats it."
Hey you guys online from Washington:
Are things really this good over there right now? If you don't want to post the answer here, then please send me a PM.
Around here business would have to be bubbling forth and overflowing before they ever let a guy like that in without sending him through the apprenticeship. Actually, the last I knew, standards were a lot higher around here to even become an apprentice.
I'll definitely be calling the Seattle union hall on Monday to see if the out-of-work list is empty. Those residential pay rates are as good as Chicago's commercial rates, and Chicago ain't near as busy as that post makes Seattle sound. Is this really so? If it is, just consider that "Location" category in my profile as reading "Washington."-T
Or./ Sw Wa (Portland area) Journeymen Union is at $27.56 base wage Taxable Wage is : $30.22 Gross Wage is : $42.02 IIRCC residential is 80% of that, I cannot remember for sure. I am guessing Seattle is slightly higher . And yes , getting into the Union is easy right now. Just find a company willing to back you . Not many union residential companies here though. Non-Union residential will get you $20/25.00 if you are really good, bring your own tools,truck etc. No bennies. Average is probably closer to 15.00
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
If you are interested in relocating, a union carpenter in good standing can go to Hawaii right now and earn $52.50 an hour. They recently were recruting through our locals here in the S.F. Bay Area, and I saw a flier at the hall today.
Something to ponder at least. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
excellent move. what a great position to create. more than a gofer on a jobsite who stands around half the day till there is a task he can do."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Thanks. I wish I could say I thought of it. During a growth period I felt as though my business needed some internal re-alignment but didn't know which way to go. A local owner of a commerical building/remodeling company and I met at a meeting once. So I called him and asked if we could chat for an hour.
I spelled out where I was with things and one of the suggestions he had was that position. He said most guys wouldn't do it as they thought of it as strictly overhead but they had that position for years and it really saved them money. I have a guy that wasn't working out in the field. He is easily overwhelmed with multiple tasks and although will do anything he doesn't remember how he did it the last time. Not good in our business.
I offered him the job as I would have let him go otherwise. He is as honest as the day is long and takes care of the equipment so has been a really good fit. He likes talking with the people as Lowes and other places so that helps too. It really has been a good thing and as I said we are able to do enough small jobs with him to offset about half his salary. And he also does upkeep around the shop so that helps too. DanT
too competetive around here to mark up that much. I usually do cost plus at $40/hr per guy plus 10% on the whole job. even at that I'm usually higher than most and don't get a lot of jobs."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
We work primarily for home owners in the retail end of it. If you are doing trim for new homes etc. then I imagine it is tough to charge more. With homeowners it is possible to charge more, you just have to sell better. DanT
it's true, I've been trying to switch over to more homeowner work. I think another year or so and I will be more comfortable than I am in selling my work. I'm not one to go around saying how good I am to people so it feels awkward to have to do that when selling yourself. not to mention learning to read people is not easy either."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
that is true most union work is form work and i did work on bridges but also worked 5 years straight as a finish carpenter in the union too
do you work year round in alaska? if so, I may consider moving if your hiring!"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
You need to get into group policy for Worker's Comp: $7.28/hr for BWC! That's outrageous!. I pay four cents per dollar paid, so If I'm paying someone $20.00/hr. then I pay .80 cents per work hour. You've got to be able to get a better rate....
You have a killer rate at 4%. We pay 9.5% and from what I've found out that's a great rate in our area.What state are you in?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm in an Ohio BWC group plan. We're at 95% discounted plan---haven't filled a claim in six years.A group plan is definitely the way to go. Also, if you're new to BWC, don't think that it's a free insurance program. When I was first starting out, I had an employee who wanted to go the the Doc in the box with every laceration, however small. Drove my rates through the roof. Now, I implement all the safety precautions I can, and reserve the most dangerous work for myself.Group rate is way superior to an individual rate. We pay a yearly rate of 125!
No I can't. The rates are determined by the insurers. I shop every year I renew. If I was a larger company and purchased $100,000 in w/c every year, I could have more help on prices. But I only buy about $40,000. I have no accidents, so our experience rate means a 15% discount.
The rates are by job class. Residential trim and framing are not too bad. Excavation and house moving are very high. They are in the $65/hundred.
Since you say you are only paying $.04/hour, you are really paying for an office employee rate not a carpenter rate. I know our office employee rates are in that low range. I'm not sure who you pay your insurnace to, but it's definitely not for w/c on carpenters. I have heard that some of our subs do as you do, and only insure their employees as office workers at the low rate you quote. If your employee was in an accident and was seriously injured, don't you think that would be a bad time to find out you are not properly insured and the insurer won't pay the claim? Then again maybe you are in a state where the rates are low? But I've never heard of rates that low.
I know your right I pay it to, just hate looking at it my highest three craftsmen are4 30 dollars per hour. Crew of 25. I constanly do the numbers in my head saying to myself do you know what this is costing me just to talk to you about this. Sorry buddy had to comment
Thanks for the input.-T
Its been so long since i worked for anyone but my boy is a carpenter and hes 27, He was offered 5 jobs at around 25 to 30 bucks an hour , no benefits, Not bragging but hes a very hard worker and is very good and at that age can really produce, I told him i think hes better off working for someone at those wages then trying to work for himself
$20-$40 an hour depending on level of expertise. No Benefits, just fun jobs to work on. I might be out of line to some but to expect someone these days to buy a truck and all the tools to build the houses we build and spend the time researching the best way to do something, like spending time on this website and only pay them $16hr is a joke! It is a true skill that deserves a true salary to those that put there heart into it. Maybe I'm crazy but I sure work with some great guys that know what there doing.
You have an awesome attitude! I hope that if I ever had a successful construction company I'd be like you. It's nice to see someone who really appreciates the skills cultivated by their employees. To me, that's worth more than pay. You say you have "great guys that know what they're doing" - I say the same could be said about their boss.
One thing though, what kind of expertise goes for $40 an hour?-T
great answer
I've got to agree with you on this one. Pay for the better people and you will have them not guarnteed but thats where it starts in the big picture 5 dollars more per man will make you money but you need to understand that just to be in bussiness Customers will pay this and want this ,work more on clean up and follow through and company image do an honest bussiness and take care of your men
Is it possible for me to make more money non-union?
Depends on how good you are. Non-union carps are paid on how much money they can make for the guy they are working for. Period.
Carpenter wages vary along with cost of living, competition, etc. so it's hard to say that what we get is anything close to your neck of the woods.
Compared to custom building carps in ski towns you're not making much. Compared to their wages adjusted for cost of living you might, or might not be.
I've never made as much after taxes as an employee as I have working for myself. It's night and day.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.