My one man band plumber has more than he can do… i keep work lined up for him… mostly service stuff… but HW tanks… rotted lines in walls… insurance repairs… I keep him in very profitable work so that he doesn’t profit too much on my stuff… works out well… i get him 90% of his work… he’s more than fair… does good work… and is never doing nothing…
my glass guy… Showed him how to do alum store fronts 10 years ago… now 50% of his business is boarding up storefronts (folks in cars love to go through em it seems I’ve had 3 in 2 years) then he comes back replaces doors locks frame & glass… these things average over 10k from one small hit… he still does windshields all day long…. but… he is stay’n busy…
my painter… any day i don’t have work for him i have a waiting list of peopl wanting paint work done… he’s not getting rich but he charges a flat $20hr and works alone… he’s not fast… but he is good
My point is… there is service work to be had… yes people might be holding back some but insurance work goes on… we just had a cold (for us) spell alot of burst pipes…
p
Replies
he's not getting rich but he charges a flat $20hr and works alone
In my neighborhood, that's good wages for an employee, but not a legitimate rate for a business (i.e., self-employed).
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
$20hr for a painter here is at the top of the pay chart for that skill... he has a few ladders and some basic tools... he does lite sheet rock work..patches ect... he gets in a full 40+ hours a week he's not getting rich but he's not hungry...
p
$20 per hour for a painter, and I'm assuming that's as a contractor, not an employee.Minus about a fourth of that for worker's comp.Minus about 28% of what's left for federal taxes and social securityMinus perhaps another 5% for state and local taxesMinus a grand or so per year for liability insuranceMinus a couple of grand per year for mileage, depreciation, tools, work clothes.Works out to about 8 bucks.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Lot of assumptions there. If you work unlicensed, uninsured, and under the table it works out to twenty bucks.
""If you work unlicensed, uninsured, and under the table "' lot of words used to mean "Illegally"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Absolutely. I am seeing an epidemic of illegality.
Lot of assumptions there. If you work unlicensed, uninsured, and under the table it works out to twenty bucks
Great observation David.
If a person DIYs it works out to nearly $30/hr.
So what if less than the day job, but great satisfaction to boot!
If finding a qualified contractor without the benefit of BT, total time equivalent for small jobs probably near $60/hr?
if he is self employed...no workers comp... insurance is not required here to be a painter for hire... no state taxes... no city taxes... he drives a $500 van (mini) so... maybe $20 a week gas... ... so he charges $800 a week... after expenses lets call it $700... he has 4 kids and a wife... I'm not a cpa... so i don't know what his tax burden would be...... could he charge $40-60hr and be working? NO not here...
but in your world would he be better off? on welfare and living in section 8 housing... and getting food stamps... and free lunches for his kids... vs work'n the best way he knows how... no one is taking advantage of him nor him of them...
i don't understand why you have an issue with him?
p
I don't have an issue with your painter, or his price structure.But you say that if he is self employed, then no workers comp.Well, I'll agree that anyone who is a sole proprietor can choose to not carry workers comp. But those who hire him are taking a risk unless he gives them a written waiver. And if he has no basic medical insurance, it's an even greater risk (for both him, and his customers).As for insurance not being required by law -- good. But any contractor who doesn't carry general liability is asking for trouble.And maybe his customers are glad that his van only cost $500. But maybe some would prefer to see something that looked more reliable. Certainly none of us need to show up in a $45,000 monster truck with a ton of chrome -- but if it looks like he might not get where he's going.......
And back to my original point. It seemed that your point was that $20 per hour is good pay. It's not.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
He didnt say that. He said theres work. He also says it beats not working .
Tim
Are things that much different outside of Raleigh, NC?
Im thinking its our area.
Thats partly why I quit working for the public here .
Tim
Edited 1/19/2009 8:01 pm by Mooney
And back to my original point. It seemed that your point was that $20 per hour is good pay. It's not.
Your original point is pointless.
If the guy is happy with $20, that's his business not yours.
He's not better off not working for $30.
He's supporting a family, he's not on the dole.
Not everyone can demand $50 or $150 an hour, some have to make $20.
Some jobs aren't worth $20 an hour, what should those people do?
You're long on theory but short on practical.
$20 looks like riches to the guy making $10, $5 an hour looks like incredible riches to 90% of the world's population.
You're wrong again.
Joe H
thanks for your post...
i try hard to remember a simple quote "when you argue with an idiot... most people looking on can't tell who is who"
when i see posters on store windows "come work for us... join our team... starting pay $8.27hr" i have to think... man i'm pretty sure $20hr is BETTER
I have an office building where i will rent you a 400sf space with utilities and janitorial services for $400mo. this is not an in the hood building... marble floors... better part of town... best access to local interstate is 1 traffic light away..
i know i should get $1000 mo for a space such as this... i could list all my expenses and all the reasons why but it ain't going to get me me $1000mo... it's called market forces... some folks get it... some never will...
p
400sf space with utilities and janitorial services for $400mo
Heck, if I didn't have so much crep here to move, i'd move to Memphis. <G>
$400 a month here gets you an unheated 400 sq ft storage shed, if even that.
OK, you're all right.Choosing between working under the table, and working for almost nothing, is a good thing. Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Choosing between working under the table, and working for almost nothing, is a good thing.
I think you're still missing the point. One can only charge what the market will bear. So, one must choose whether to work in that market or not. The options would be to "endevour to persevere", go on the dole, commute to a better market, change professions, or change markets.
All but the 1st two likely require large upfront investments and working capital is probably sorely lacking in this guy's arsenal. He's trapped into choosing between the 1st two options.
Is he happy about his lot in life? Probably not. Is he proud of the choice he made to stay off the dole? More than likely.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I'm self employeed and don't pay workers comp.
don't have to ... so I don't.
now I could ... they'll take my money ...
they just won't give me any back should I ever ask.
paying and not being able to collect seems kinda dumb.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Are you a corp, LLC, or a sole prop? Here in WA as a corp officer or member of an LLC, I can have work comp on myself (and I do) and they will pay a legit claim. Work comp is not available at all to a sole prop, you can't even pay in.
llc.
and from all I've been able to gather ... can't collect.
think I could be if I was a full corporation.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
S Corp, here. We don't have to have WC with less than 3 employees... but I do a lot of work for GCs, and am a GC. Some counties require a GC to have WC to pull a permit. When the insurance co. does it's yearly audit, one thing they're looking for is uninsured subs. GC has to pay around 11% on any sub who's uninsured.GC's will either deduct a percentage from sub's checks, or eat it.When first started working for myself, and was uninsured, I got check from a GC that was 17% light. The bookeeper was also taking a cut, and it was legal! Got insurance that day.Corporate officers do not need to be covered by WC.Most subs have what we call ghost policies. You have WC for the books, but you can't collect. Some of those policies do give year end rebates.All this probably varies by state.
http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Definitely varies by state. I am not sure my personal medical policy would cover for work injuries, and they definitely don't have any long-term disability or lost work time coverage. I do not want to work with my hands and body without full comp coverage, so my business has to pay for it. If it can't I'll get a job somewhere else. Costs me about $2.25/hr. for 1500 hours per year.
Dave, Just a note as we adjust to this year's paperwork mountains. WA State ESD is no longer automatically exempting corporate officers from unemployment insurance. We've got to fill out a form now. So's you know in case you haven't caught that little update yet. -duke
Yeah, that one puzzled me enough to call my bureaucracy consultant. Apparently I could only collect if I closed the business and never swung a hammer again, so it hardly seems worth it. I do know that they need extra money in the UI fund these days, but I have already paid in quite a lot and no one that has worked for me has ever collected.
now I could ... they'll take my money ...
they just won't give me any back should I ever ask.
paying and not being able to collect seems kinda dumb
Not entirely true................yes it's dumb to pay into something optionally that you know you can never collect on............
BUT
Depending on how you set it up, you can in fact get coverage for yourself that will pay. Even in P.A.
I did it and it was a pain in the a$$ because my agent didn't know a thing about it. Most don't.
The reason most agents don't know about it is that depending on the structure you can get a disability policy cheaper and at a fixed cost.
Didn't say W/c on yourself was a good idea.............just that you can get it and be covered in P.A
Edited 1/20/2009 9:20 pm ET by robert
as an LLC?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Or as a sole proprietor.
It was a huge pain in the a$$ and like I said was way more expensive then just plain old disability with a 30 day exclusion period.
For interior carpentry it was 12 on the 100. I do know a guy who collected on it and it was a pain but they did pay.
that seals it for me!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I could actually get a really good deal on disability if I could go the 90 day exclusion period route.
The reason most people don't buy WC on themselves and most agents don't know about it is how hard it is to do and the 12-30 on the 100 depending on trade.
If you sub from a big builder or shop in N.J right now you stand a good chance of getting hit up for WC on the owner. Because they are getting hit up.
I know of two stair shops and two big kitchen places that require their subs to be covered by WC. And if they aren't, the bigger company gets hit for the premium.
That's actually how I found out you could do it. Two shops I was installing for required it and I told them they were crazy. My agent (Erie) set me straight.
I'll check with my Erie agent next time we talk ... but ... for those rates I'll sign the "don't carry / don't need" form for as long as I can.
this to may be changing with the soon to be contractor registration in PA.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"And maybe his customers are glad that his van only cost $500. But maybe some would prefer to see something that looked more reliable."
maybe you just shouldn't hire this particular painter.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My stepson just had a call offering him $40/hr to do trim in a casino in Vegas with a guy he used to work for in Idaho.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
that's a bit of a commute 'tho, no?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I do believe that I would seriously consider that.
He is.He was making 25 as a "sub" carpenter and that guy ran out of work, so he got another job before the boat sank - this one at $17 but a real job with taxes and partial health paid and at least enough work ahead to get through to mid summer.They just bought a house here last year, but could probably rent it. I think his wife is lobbying for the move.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
as i understand it you can rent a house in vegas for less than half of what the note is... he might be $$$ ahead if he can rent his and then rent one there... it might be a job related expense?
p
Just my opinion, but when a carpenter in Maine has to go to Las Vegas for a job, that belongs in a thread entitled There is Precious Little Work Out There.
My B.I.L. moved to Vegas for construction work - said the pay was great, the work was steady. He lasted less than a year, factors and jobsite conditions other than pay kinda took the air out of his balloon. He's a building inspector in Colorado now, haven't heard lately how his work is going, but he was lovin' it last we spoke."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
"when a carpenter in Maine has to go to Las Vegas for a job,"HAS TO isn't the key phrase that applies. They are making a decent living here between their two jobs. I guess he enjoyed working with this guy, and there is less snow to shovel in Vegas...things like that and the higher pay are enticing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A cousin of mine has a beautiful ranch in Tenn. He works in California; has for a year now.
His dw is tending the ranch and the horses.
We do what we have to.
Hey Craig -
While I think about it, thanks again for hooking my son up with Tony. They were pretty impressed with him. He taught them way more than they thought they ever wanted to know about HVAC systems.
Now, back to the subject at hand: I'm getting way more repair type calls than usual and my contractor business has slowed up some. I'm taking some jobs I wouldn't have even looked at this time last year. But roofing is pretty recession proof. I've never missed a day of work I didn't want to miss in 25 or so years.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
cool deal... tony is one that i Trust... glad he helped...
Guess my point is... if people aren't spending money on things they want... then you have to do the work they Need... insurance claims don't go down in lean times ( i wouldn't guess)
someone has to fix the stuff that breaks....
p
AS I've been looking for a new car or truck,
I finally I think settled on a new car. We'll still have the family SUV.
When I asked a few friends what they did, not having trucks and all, they simply said they had it delivered.
Don't know about your area but trucks are fewer and fewer on the lots these days and many people have traded for cars based on the fear that gas will suddenly shoot back up to $4 a gallon this summer (it won't).
I'm thinking a whole new line of work might be popping up in the near future.
Full size trucks are cheap these days and I'm thinking an industrious type could make a living delivering "Things" in Yuppie neighborhoods.
I see fewer pickups in the company lot than a year ago, but I'm guessing that they're just leaving the PU at home, not trading it in.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
there is a local guy... older retired guy... has a pick-up lwb... he delivers anything from prints to flowers to people... takes alot of people to the VA with their wheel chair... I can't see him getting rich but it keeps him out of the house...
there is a local company "rent a wreck" they only rent full size pick-ups half day to weeks... i don't know the rates but pretty poplar with out of town contractors who fly in and need a truck to install equipment or set up stores...
p
Interresting little thread you have going amd the takes on it so far.
I dont know a lot . I have a cousin thats running work up north in no wheres ville . Seems the gov is putting in a power plant there . Well there isnt enough housing . So hes working for a comany working for the goverment providing houseing . Colder than a well drillers teat. They been trying to stay up there in campers and are getting froze out . Houses rent for 4000 per month cause theres not any supposedly. In the middle of no where north country the way I understand it .
Anyways theres been a lot of trouble getting help to stay from the cold temps and no living quarters. Lots of takers and then they leave .
I can hire a carpenter here to work alone , his business , for 20 bucks an hour. One man bands or two. Any time you bring this up on this board youll get the same beat back from it . It isnt enough to make a legit business and we know it but the woods are full of them. Looks like the city is full of them as well where you live. Electricans working for 25 an hour .
The thing is as you say if they charged twice that they would not be working . Im not sure how that would ever get changed.
Tim