My wife the designer, working with the client, picked a new interior color for their home. As I am the painter, she wrote up a contract for the painting. They left on vacation, and we performed the work in professional fashion. When they returned, they objected to the color, said it was “too dark” and wanted it repainted. They are holding back $750.00 in hopes of getting us to repaint it.
My wife told them to live with it for a while, and if they didn’t like it, she’d repaint it (without mentioning money — they may think it’s for free!!). Well, it’s been 6 months, and they’re still making noises about wanting it repainted.
It is a 60-80 man-hour job to repaint this home, and if we hired a reliable college student we know, it would still cost about $900 for labor and $300.00 for paint.
I am inclined to push the point with them: they OK’d the color, and we did the job. What’s the issue, pay up!! But my wife is a bit more hesitant, esp. considering her offhand commitement to “repaint it”. She is not able to paint it herself, and I have no desire to work 80 hrs for $5.00/hr — esp. since we already did the work once!
BTW, these are the very nice, older couple, friendly, but extremely picky. She can and does spot roller spatter on anything at 10 feet (yeah, there was some in the kitchen on the countertop that didn’t get fully dropped off). So I don’t relish working for them again under any circumstances short of making decent money, y’know?
We figure our options are to just walk away from the $750, or push them to pay, or ??? got any good ideas ???.
I know everyone who’s ever painted or done work for people has run across this situation, and I’d be grateful to hear how you handled it. We’re not in a huge hurry to push the point; we’d like to collect the design fee check first; but once that’s out of the way, it’ll be time to get this resolved.
Replies
we'd like to collect the design fee check first Six months later and you're still waiting for the design fee check? Time for a reality check Geoff.
In hindsight, you probably should have bought a quart of the selected color and painted a sample in one of the rooms, and got that approved before doing the whole job.
Sounds like you're in a pickle. If you can collect the design fee, then I would sugest that you walkk away from the rest. Tell the client you're sorry they don't like the color they chose, and if they want it repainted they will have to pay for the first job plus the repaint cost.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Like Ed said, six months and you don't have the design fee ?
Maybe they intend to try to cheat you out of both ?
Maybe they are holding that one hostage as well, to try to get you to repaint for free ?
Demand the design fee now.
Once you have it, walk away. It will cost you more than that fee to repaint, and several times that, if you decide to go the legal route.
Consider it tuition, as some others have said here at BT.
Nice is as nice does. This doesn't sound like a very nice old couple.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
"Ya know? You Folks have been great to work for However,You Did, pick this Color"
Now that the color has been applied and you have had time to adjust to Your Choice. I would hope that you would see your way clear to paying me for work I did to the best of my ability Six Months Ago.
Please pay the full amount or I will have no recourse other than pursue a lien against your property."
Sincerely,
GeoffH Painting
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Go in with a full size belt sander with the 36 grit floor eater belt on it. Tell them if they don't pay you for the paint job, today, in cash, you're going to remove it. Tell them you know how long it takes to drive to their bank and back but since you're a good guy, you'll give them an extra ten minutes before you start sanding.
Edited 7/19/2004 1:04 am ET by Uncle Dunc
1. Did you have a signed contract/ agreement?
2. Does it state the color paint to be used in each room?
3. Did you give them a sample on the walls to approve?
4. Did they sign-off for each color?
5. Did you give them a written statment defining the paint/ room schedule?
6. What is the Mechanic's Lien window in your area? Here in NYC we only have 60 days from our last day of work at the site.
7. Always be firm but polite. Try to reason with them. Explain that you are not comfortable repainting when they are unwilling to pay you for the work you have already done to their specifications.
8. The Designer - in this case, your wife - mispoke and offered your services without your consent. This is very unprofessional and the Designer - regardless of relation - must be told in plain and clear terms.
9. Offer to repaint but the cost of materials must be borne by the client. Be sure to mark-up the material cost for O & P.
10. Repaint when it's convinient for you. Paint a sample on the wall and get approval in writing. Cross your T's and dot the I's. Go overboard with confirmation. This will make a point that trust has been lost necesitating that biz be done differently.
11. These are NOT nice people, nor are they friendly. Quite simply, they were shmoozing you - ACTING nice and friendly to get you to do better or extra work.
12. Do not vandalize anything, lie, misrepresent yourself or get emoitional/ angry/ loud with them. Then you are worse than them. Be dignified, professional and polite. The high road is always best.
13. If they still don't pay, mention it to them publicly whenever you see them out. Attend a church service of theirs once a month or eat at a restaurant they frequent. It's amazing how public humiliation or discomfort motivates people!
F.
It is items like this that get me back to the Form once and a while. If only to remind me of how I should be doing buisness. I use to always get the client to sign off on colurs and finishes, but have been very busy lately and have let it pass. but with this good reminder I will start this the sign off again. We can all learn form others mistakes and this form is a great way to keep in tune,
In the past if I have run into this problem I go directly to small claims( In Ontario it goes up to $6,000.00 ) usually the notice will get you the money. It is a business and if you are in the right you do not need customers that use the last hold back to get extra work done.
George.
My one golden rule (when not building an entire house) in this business has been to work out of the clients pocket, not mine. In other words, I always make sure I'm paid before doing anything else........ And never go over a week before I get some cash.
In over thirty years I've only been stuck a few times (always by other contractors for less than 500.00) cause when it comes to money, I don't trust anyone, even nice, old people. .......going in, everybody loves you.
You goofed up big time........might as well just walk away from the paint job
they may think it's for free!!). .......You can take that to the bank.
Walk!! I doubt that you can do business with these people, I mean profitable business. If you go back and repaint your pi$$ed off and will not do you best job....then your customer will start picking the fly crap out of the pepper....again.
Do and autopsy on to see what went wrong. Make some changes.
Good judgement comes from experience....experience comes from poor judgement...(someone said)
Its rather simple.
If they signed a contract than they simply owe you the money.
I hope in your contract the paint color was spelled out,as was the design fee.
Do as I did...take them to small claims court or put a mechanics lien on their house like I did with a last customer that refused to pay.
A lein cost me $250 to have a lein company do it for me.
They'll have to eventually pay you the full amt plus interest.
Be well paid
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Frankie had a good reply. A lien on their property would get their attention, but maybe small claims court (like "Judge Judy") would work. No lawyers fees, in fact neither side can use a lawyer. Loser pays niminal court costs (maybe @$35). I would call those people "passive agressive" the kind that smile and apologize while they stick the knife in.
The guy I work with reattached drywall that was falling (the stupid laminated crap that was all the rage in the early sixty's--glue failed) and painted it. The lady didn't like what he'd done (fortunately I wasn't involved in that part of job, only the shingling we did on her roof) and refused to pay. He tried reasoning with her, even had a realtor (she was selling the house) come in and look. The realtor said the work did have a few problems, which my boss said he'd fix, but the HO wouldn't let him back in the house to do the work. (Note, HO is an attorney, also belongs to my church!) Long and short of it is my boss just walked away and let the contested money go (I think he lost nearly a thousand dollars). The thing is, he is honest and a good worker and just eaks out a living from his small business--works out of his house with just me helping him. The lawyer, on the other hand, lived in a real nice, expensive house full of real nice, expensive things. Really p'd me off.
There are some points here that need to be absolutley clear.
You talk about she, me, and we. What is it.
Your wife was hired as a designer and with the couple picked a color scheme.
You where hired by the designer (your wife) or by the HO?
You talk about (your wife?) not being paid the remainder of the $750 designer fee. But where you paid for your painting and by who?
How would this have been any different that if you doing the painting that the designer has just pick a set of colors and told the HO's to find a painter and they picked the Grace L Ferguson Painting and Storm Door company?
If YOU worked for the HO's then as I see it the Designer needs to work with the HO's to pick a new color scheme, probably at no additional cost (but I am not up on either the contract or standards business practices in that field). But if the designer was only only to pick the color then it apply that color is a completely different task and the HO needs to pay for it.
$750.......?
Walk
That was great advice from Frankie. Very good on that point about the "nice older couple". Nice people don't even talk of "withholding." (read: Steal.)
And other's have given you all the info you need to "rehabiltate" your ways.
Walk.....go forth and make money. And tell your wife to get her act together too.
> And tell your wife to get her act together too.
I'll be sure to do that...
She realizes she has a problem when conflicts arise on her jobs, and her general response is to fume in private and cave in public. She also has a problem with contract and works specifications, which tend to be on the lax side -- again, she fears alienating her clients. I ask her how she likes working for free, and of course she hates doing it. I think she's nearly at a point where she's going to make some changes. Meanwhile, I'll help out on this one.
We've been delaying the collection on the design work simply because there was some accessorizing that needed to happen, but that's done now, so there's no reason not to go after that money. Once we have that, then we can deal with the paint job. I'm going to insist they pay it, and then we can help them with getting another color if they really want it -- but they're going to have to pay for the whole job. My college student painter would be glad for the work.
I don't anticipate any solid objections to getting paid. They may whine a bit, but they know that we deserve the money, they're just trying to get something for nothing, and that ain't gonna happen. I'm sure I can persuade them to see my point of view.
>She also has a problem with contract and works specifications, which tend to be on the lax side -- again, she fears alienating her clients.
Dear Mrs. H,
The time has come for you to decide how professional you want to be. I, too, had issues with contracts and such--nice people don't ask for money, right? It's how I was raised. I got over it and am much happier for it. It's time for you to get over it. Clients respond to professional practices. They didn't hire you to become your friend. They like knowing how things will progress and what will be due when. They don't like uncertainty. Provide a contract with clear specs and clear payment terms, don't ever commence work without a signature on that contract, don't ever start the subsequent stage till the prior stage is paid. Everybody will be happier working with someone who runs their business this way. Today's a good day to start.
Regards,
Jim
I feel for you.
Don't know all your details of hoiw the choice was actually made but here is a suggestion for you wife in a way to document things without appearing or feeling confrontational. Two weeks ago, I had a weekend conference with the owners reps and the interior designer to pick colours, amoung aother things. There I was taking notes while three women talked fabrics and colours non-stop at high speed for four hours straight. I only provided the colour wheel from the compnies that they and the painters prefered.
I had started right off telling them, "I don't do colours, My wife etells me that I have terrible taste along those lines."
I know your wife can't use that line, but bear with me....
After the meeting, I took all my notes and wrote out a colour schedule listing, by room, the choices they had made for ceilings, walls, floors, and trims. I sent them each a copy prefaced by a statement along these lines -
" I have listed here the colour choices you all made in our meeting on the ______(day). Thank you for making those decisions in such a timely manner because it will help me move things along in an efficient manner without losing momentum on this job. I know you all worked hard to come to those decisions. Please review the list and contact me immediately if there are any errors to be corrected. I have ordered samples and will have them in place for your next visit to approve."
Then we prepared 8x10 sheets to place in each room with smaller slips of trim colours alongside. That visit went well, and there were no corrections.
Note, still no contracted specs, this is a cost plus job, but there is documentation in that memo sent of the choices made, and a triple statement repeated to the effect that the choices and responsibility for corrections was up to them..
Almost every room had a different colour. Each room looked OK in and of itself, as a stand-alone, but when you stepped back and circulated through the house, you had the feeling of being shook up in a chex cereal party pack snack bag. Too many changes and reflections that did not compliment one another.
Friday night when I got home, I had a call from the owner's rep, and they are flying the interior designer back here on wednesday to "fix things" and a total apology for the slowdown, which I graciously accepted.
Point is, that the memo, though a one sided communiquie`, documents the facts and opens for them the opportunity to waver or change their minds at any time.
Docs such as this are a normal procedure in architects and designers offices as a way of recording the "minutes of the meeting" in case legal action is ever needed. It can be done tactfully and professionally, leaving the client feeling, "Wow, she really is on top of things here for us"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
not that i disagree with anything you wrote, but exactly how do you reconcile these two statements/positions?:
12. Do not vandalize anything, lie, misrepresent yourself or get emoitional/ angry/ loud with them. Then you are worse than them. Be dignified, professional and polite. The high road is always best.
13. If they still don't pay, mention it to them publicly whenever you see them out. Attend a church service of theirs once a month or eat at a restaurant they frequent. It's amazing how public humiliation or discomfort motivates people! (My emphasis added)
how does one politely and professionally publicly humiliate someone? "Well, I'll be darned- it's Mr. & Mrs. Tightwad here in church this fine morning! How much did you throw in the collection plate- or did you stiff the Lord, too?" or "Good evening, Mr. & Mrs. SoCheapYouSqueak! are you 'dining & dashing' on the whole tab tonite or just stiffing the waitress on her tip?"
m
Simple:
"Mr. and Mrs. Jones, how nice to see you. I have sent you four invoices and have not recieved payment. If there is something in the contract I have not fulfilled please let me know. I would love to resolve it. Otherwise, when can I expect payment?"
"Mr. and Mrs. Brown, what a lovely surprise. How's are the kids? I have sent you a final invoice four times for work completedsix months ago and have not had any response. Frankly I am very dissappointed as things progressed so well during the job. It is so out of character. When should I expect the final payment of $750?"
"Mr. and Mrs. Smith, how good to see you. I trust everything is going well for the two of you. I was speaking to my book keeper and he/ she reminded me that you have not responded to the four invoices we have sent you for final payment regarding work completed six months ago. I am sure it was an oversight on your part. It was such a delight to work with you and we would like to move you into the projects completed and paid column. When can we expect the $750 final payment?"
Those are just a few that I thought of on the fly. It's not too difficult if you treat it as finessing a negotiation where finess always has the upper-hand and therefore wins. Don't allow others to take your power. Stick to the facts, be polite, keep dialogue to a minimum and don't budge even a fraction of an inch. You agreed to do the work for a fee. The work is completed according to specifications, so the fee is due - in full - unless the terms of the agreement stated that you paint until they are happy with their color selection.
After 2 or 3 sightings they will be more than happy to cut the check. On the subsequent sighting, I'll bet they approach you first to say hello and accept a thank you/ acknowledgement for payment recieved. HA!
F.
once again, i more or less agree with your position, but making someone's private professional dealings public with the direct intent of shaming them into paying the bill does not strictly qualify as 'taking the high road' in my book. while you can certainly couch your confrontational comments in polite, professional terms so as not to lose style points from the east german judge, the objective is the same- 'humiliating' or embarrassing them into caving. i think it would be effective, and not undeserved in the least, but deliberately airing somebody's dirty laundry with the express intention of gaining an advantage in a business situation ain't my idea of the high road.
when i lived in denver there was a window(?) company right by the intersection of I-70 and I-25 (about a zillion cars per day) and they had a billboard marquee right out by north-bound 25 at the off ramp to east-bound 70 where every once in awhile they'd post the names of folks who had bounced checks to them. they usually got paid real fast...
m
and how do you respond to their retort of
"When you finish the job we contracted with you to do."_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
No matter how smooth you do it, you can run the risk of apearing to be the crass one. I may write well enough here, but I am not always fast enough on my feet or quick tongued enough for repartee' of that sort, so I have only tried it when I am already concinced that the subject is a dead loser and I will never get paid.
Harvard Prof who has a rep for stiffing guys here got me for fifty bucks. He wanted to talk me into settling for 25. I told him that he owed fifty and to pay it or nothing, if he could live with that on his conscience. That was on the phone, and he immdiately told me that he would pay right away - then never did.
So I have seen him twice since then - about ten or eleven years ago. With my biggest smile, I say, "Howdy, are you still geting tradesmen to work for free?"
He now turns away when he sees me coming, and makes sure to shepherd anyone with him away too, the scoundrel.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm wondering...is it "off color" or is it that they "don't like the color."
Off color...then someone screwed up...paint store with crummy match....wrong chip matched??
If they don't like the color....life's real tough...pick another color (and in this case, another painter) and paint again.
It's the color they picked, there's been no argument about that.
They had been living with Builder's Off White for 20 years, and we went to a light yellow. They feel it's "too dark".
It seemed like a great idea to paint while they were on vacation to minimize disruption, as it was the whole house.. but in retrospect, it would have been great if they could have seen one wall or one room before we did the rest of the job.
If they DO wind up getting it redone, I'll make that recommendation to them. Paint the family room first, where they spend 90% of their time, and once that feels OK, do the rest. It might work out they could just redo that one room and be happy, too.
The idea of shaming them in public isn't my wife's style, and in any event, we never see them except to do work -- they live 20 miles away.
The idea of shaming them in public isn't my wife's style....
Good for her....remember, if you go around dumping on a previous customer for any reason....you may very well look like winer yourself.
if I were a potential customer, don't know if I'd want to get involved with a tradesman that is still grinding an ax with someone he did business.
Say again...walk. chalk it up as the cost of doing business. Go out to dinner with wife and talk about the good jobs. Start again Monday morning.
Good luck.
this is why we pax taxes and have magistrates.
I'd send a registered letter ... laying out what happened step by step ....
no emotions here ... just the facts ...
then give 10 days for them to pay ...
and end by saying this letter also serves notice I intend to file with their local mag's office in the even 10 days passes and full payment isn't received.
First ... U think they're running around passing our you biz cards? What's to lose ...
and ... walk? from earned money? anyone that suggests that should just offer to work free all the time ...
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Not sure where you live, but in Michigan you only have 90 days to file a lien. That includes filing a notice of furnishings, and then the actual lien. Your other option is small claims court. I believe "small claims" carries a different definition from state to state as far as dollar amount is concerned. They DID approve the color, so I would think you have a legal leg to stand on, as long as you have signed contracts to back your claim.
you don't even need a signed contract.
a contract just clarifies then intents of each party ....
I heard about a case local to me with no contract ... the judge said it was pretty clear the contactor didn't pick a house at random and go in to work for free for a coupla weeks.
and since the HO's were saying that the final payment of $X,XXX.XX was being withheld ... judge said it was real easy to know exactly what dollar amount was previously agreed upon.
the contractor got the judgement ...
the HO's kept pushing there was no "signed contract" and the judge commented that that sounded like they were thinking ... wrongly ... that they didn't have to pay for work done in good faith ... or words similar to that ... over heard second hand ...
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Well, we actually DO have a signed contract. I don't think they're going manage to withstand my polite but firm method of dealing with this when we get around to it. Up till now, the wife has been putting off what she feels will be a confrontational meeting, but I know if it's handled right, they'll pay up. It's just a matter of meeting with them and making it clear that, as much as they dislike the color, they aren't going to get it repainted for free, and they need to cut us a check. I'm sure they'll understand once it's explained to them.
have the meeting quick b4 something changes
fire
sickness
car wreck
they leave town
etc
chances are you'll get the money just by asking ...
most contractors that miss out on a paycheck don't "ask" a second and third time ...
I never liked "asking" for money anyways ...
I did the work ... now pay me.
I usually say "I'll be needing that check now".
I like to tell when I want my money ... not ask permission to recieve it.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
>I never liked "asking" for money anyways ...
I've had to learn that. Now I say things like, "I can begin the ____ phase once I receive the next payment." They expect the work to be done, so I expect the payment.
1 take your contract to the county court house and get that recorded as a public record,where the work was performed.Be insistant with the county clerk,about finding a classification under which you can record it, they must find one...
2 take documents to the sherrif or justice of the peace,(which ever office can take that through to a Lien or summary judgement) some states have both...
3 If you can,try for an identification of the contract as business to business (many states are highly pro-active about this and may take property from a business for a sherrif's auction...If the client sees his expensive property being pro-rated in value, they will be anxious to pay you off...