Been doing some residential carpentry work for the last 6 years…seem to get more calls over the last year…mainly references from prev. customers.
Got a call from a HO in a newer sub on the edge of town…wanted another door in a sun room. Told him that I couldn’t get to it for about 6 weeks, got to finish another job. He says OK…good timing cause he is having a brick patio put in soon
Looked at room, gave his wife estimate of $325 + materials….cut out and install door with lockset, trim in and outside. Pick up the door. Move and electrical box….Match existing trim etc.
Says she wants to pick out a door…told her sizes, 32″ or 36″ max…talked about RO, door swing, lock set, size and style of trim. Told her to order the door and I’ll pick it up.
Called a week before I finished current job…Oh! she forgot to call me….seems her husband and friend put the door in themselves…but thanks anyway.
What happened…think I know but would be interested in others experience. They went to school on me…got measurements, what to do, general info and did it themselves..
Don’t want to do this again if I can help it. Losing this job won’t break me..but it’s a clammy way to operate. Now I know why some business charge for estimates.
Wadda ya think?
Replies
I think they probably did a shiddy job on the door and will want you to 'fix'it at some point!
Don't sweat it, you just lost a customer you didn't need and it hardly cost you anything at all.
Eric
I charge a non refundable 10% to get on the schedule. It come off the price of the job but that is what it takes to get me to put someone on my schedule. Since starting that practice I haven't had that problem.
Do I thing people use my for info, sure. Do I think they take my quote and break it down for someone else? Sure. Just part of the deal. DanT
I like that idea of a 10% downstroke to get scheduled. Not a lot of money on a $300+ job but it should help to keep my scheduled from getting jacked around.
Could have really gotten screwed if I bought the materials then they changed their mind.
Not a major deal for me since there seems to be enough work around to keep me as busy as I want to be....Just ticked me off that someone could be so casual about it.
Bet if I called them 2 days before the start date and cancelled, they'd raise holy hell.
Hey Lenny,
Yeah, ya got used.
But don't get bunmed out too much. These folks may be on their way to be good customers someday.
My definition of a good customer:
1. Has done projects, jobs, repairs and installations on their homes and has finally realized that they're not very skilled and they don't really enjoy doing the work themselves anymore.
2. Has been disapointed with the work they have had done that was based price first.
So be sure to give these folks a call, be nice, keep the communication going, and never let the customer handle the material once you've invested yourself into the job. In fact, any investment of your time after the first "ballpark estimate" should result in some kinda compensation. But they won't offer it, ya gotta require it.
When I hear a conversation in which a couple talks about the "money they saved" doing a project themselves, I always ask, with a humorous smile, "Yeah, but did ya fight?" They always smile, laugh and then agree that at some point, they did indeed fight....or have a heated discussion.....or just a bit of nastiness. I knowing nod.
Not judgemental. Just planting a seed.
At some point, most people, who as they become more affluent, decide to place a greater value on their "free" time and that's the beginning of a great customer!
Lenny,
On a job of that size I make up a number. $50, $75 or $100. Really doesn't matter I just want them to commit and not decided the week before to cancel because they saw a car they wanted to buy and figured they had nothing to lose. We do a lot of jobs in the 2-5k range so the dollar figure is enough to make them think. And if I do get cancelled at least I have something towards payroll. DanT
Some customers are fantastic, others a waste of time.
I have a job coming up where the owners didnt shop around for price. Just thanked me for a professional quote, thanked me for looking at the job, thanked me for giving them a start date........Said they wanted me to do the job. Very cool.
Another one recently called and said they wanted their bathroom done "right now" Said I was pretty busy but would have a look. Did so, gave a quote. As it happened I had a delay with another one so had a space big enough to do theirs fast. Told them I could fit them in. Heard nothing. called and was told they were waiting on other prices. Hmmmmmm. The one they picked was the cheapest ( surprise surprise ). His was merely wages plus $200. I figgured if they chose someone who was that cheap and available now with the severe shortage of skilled workers, then they are deserving of the major bite in the arse they have coming.
Some folks will promise "future work" in exchange for a cheap price.....yeah right.
Some will blatantly get you round, use all your knowledge ( if you let them ) then never call again.
Some ( this happened to me ) will want what they want NOW, then 1/2 way into the job ask for a price reduction. ........yeah right
Some will make all the right noises, then get evasive when the numbers get added up. ( in the middle of this now )
Some ya win, some you lose. Seems to be the nature of the beast when dealing with one particular beast called "The Public". damnit.............
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
A friend of mine who at the time was 53 years old and is an artist- decorative painter was painting a mural in the house of a bajillionare, I was doing the trimwork. She completed the mural in 3 days and it was beautiful, and when it came time to bill (I think it was around $2500.00) the angry HO lashed out.
"Wait a minute, how long did it take you to do this job?!", he said angrily.
Very non chalant she said, "Fifty three years".
Wish you coulda' been there, it was a real Kodak moment.
I charge the cost of the materials, or one third total cost max, up front. The max this state allows is 1/4 the total cost, but it's not inforced. Materials or 1/3 the job covers the upfront costs to get on the schedule and to get started when scheduled. Never had a similar problem as yours. Been underbid on quite a few, though...
I think that it is fine to charge for estimates. A standard system to eliminate tire kickers is to apply the charge to the job if you do the work.
I don't think that you should feel too bad about these people doing their own work with the help that you gave them. Did you ever get help from anyone? Of course, and the people that helped you out were happy to do it. If you leave them with a positive experience they will help you build your business for the long run. And next time you will charge them a small fee for the estimate and the guidance.
Lenny,
I've similarly been burned, most contractors have been. Aside from charging for an estimate, which can be a good idea to separate the wheat from the chaff, I try another tack.
When a prospective client asks you what's your price and how would you do this, it's tempting to be flattered and impress them with your knowledge and wisdom. But doing so can get you burned. So, say " I'm sorry, but I don't give that information for free. I've been burned before. But I'm happy to do the work for you."
I heard an electrician once tell a woman who complained about his high prices, "Ma'am, you're not paying me to turn a screw, you're paying me to know which screw to turn."
Don't be hissed till you come by to do a little job and find out they have had some major renovations that you never knew about the 'bid' opportunity...
For my sanity (I know, what little...) I have had to tell at least one client I wasn't interested in doing that little teaser job since I was excluded from something very important to my business...and they weren't loyal enough to me in return for my previous hard work etc.
Dave...
Thinking back, thanks to other opinions I received, I don't think I would be so offended if the HO had fessed up and just said " Is this something I could do myself, we're trying to save some $$$" instead of what I feel was a talk and switch deal.
I think I would have freely given my suggestions on door detail, suppliers, etc just on a goodwill move in hopes of spreading my name/card around the neighborhood.
Len
God bless you Lenny,I believe life is to short for worrying about "job security" if there is any such thing, because the info age is here... people should hear you tell it,not their uncle jim,who dunnit a way back. or save us all if the "depot" attendant tells them how...
KEEP THE FAITH!(this credit to unknown) LIFE IS SO SHORT,YET THE CRAFT SO LONG TO MASTER
Lenny,
Please man, don't charge for estimates. That would indicate a lack of couth & finesse. To be successful, you need people skills as well.
Gab
gab... damn, you saw right thru me... no couth and certainly no finesse..
show me da money !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm gonna guess that you are one of the "customers" that feel it necessary to get 4 or 5 free estimates for any job you hire out.
Matt
Dear Matt,
Keep guessin' pal.
Gab
next time, bid it with door and other misc materials and markup included, then get a deposit equal to the cost of ther door. Wjhen you are holding their money, they won't go far astray
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
All you guys who ask for a deposit to get on the schedule: What do you do with the money? Escrow it? Pay interest on it? Commingle it with your money?
It's probably no big deal when you're talking a few hundred dollars for a door job that you will start in a month or two. As a customer, I think I'd get a little twinge about handing over thousands or maybe even tens of thousands of dollars for a job that might be a year more in the future.
dunc.. most of thetime with me.. the deposit is for a job one month out... maybe 3 -4..
but for a major project.. it's gotta be enough money for me to know the contract is bound.. so i'm generally looking for $1K.. and yes.. i commingle it.. and ( shudder ) spend it..
this is legal in RI. ....some states it's not..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what's it matter?
you're supposed to hire someone ya trust.
just had a lady last week ... after I gave her a bid/price ...
she asked ... if we hire U ... now remember .. we need this done as quick as possible ... what's the next step.
So I say ... well ... I get a deposit. Then have my plumber/electrician/HVAC guy come thru and make sure my numbers were on target ... then we proceed with the paper work.
She asks ... how much of a deposit.
I say .... usually 10 to 15% .. but since this will be at most an 8 week job ... a seeing as how it's a small addition/bath job ... lotsa the upfront money is going to go out fast to order everything so it's all on site as soon as possible ... so we have no delays ... because you want this done as asap ...
without looking at my numbers ... I'd say I'll probably need 25% .... to get started and order all the special order stuff ...
dead silence ....
then ... "25% .. why that's almost $13K!"
so I say ... yeah ... but if I took $5 as 10% down ... I'll be asking for close to $10K about a week later ... as everything has to be ordered quick ....
"Oh ...."
"I'll have to think about it ... I thought U guys had arrangements with your distrubitors where they gave U credit?"
so now I'm thinking ... ok .. this lady wants a $50K addition on her $650K home ... so they can sell it for $750K ....
and she wants this $50K of work done in 8 weeks ...
But she's wanting me to have the suppliers give her/us "credit"?
I was tempted to ask if she thought I should wait until the house sells to ask for any money ....
Credit! I told her I do get credit from my supplier .. but I don't use it to finance my customers remodels ... and that there are even some remodelers that'll finance your whole project ... but I'm a remodeler ... not a bank. I don't want to learn how to be a bank.
So to her .. she'd probably wanna know what that money does as soon as it leaves her hands ...
to me ... none of her business. Either trust me to build ... or not. Simple.
I gotta truct her to pay, right?
Anyways .... she said she'd call back. We'll see.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
When I was a roofing sub, I took 30% just to get on the scedule. not escrow, but iput the bucks in a separate account antill I started ordering materials for that job.
Now, I just roll it all into the same act, but I keep track to know that I am not spending their money on other things. for instance, On the current job, I have 20K deposit. At months end, after bills paid and invoices sent and liabilities accounted for, I had a surplus of $19,995.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Some times I just hold the check until I start the job. They dont know I have'nt deposited it so the chances of them trying to cancel it is slim.
You must have met angus1 or a close relative...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....
WOW!!! What a Ride!
They get on the schedule when they sign my contract and three days (OH statutory term for canceling contract) have passed. I do get a materials deposit... but am very particular about segregating the money. I NEVER carry materials... period. I even open an escrow account at whatever store will be handling the incidentals (lowes, HD, local lumber yard, supply house)... in their name... but with me as a signer.
Word to the wise as emphasis... NEVER EVER CARRY MATERIALS on a remodel. Get it in deposit; make the HO pay for the materials on delivery... but do not carry materials, no matter what. I have seen, and have been victim to, a homeowner claim "on my property rights" to materials... and the cost (time and money) to litigate and recover are just not cost/reward effective.
I am a weird bird... I get paid for the job when it is complete... ie, I get paid when the framing is done, i get paid when the drywall is done, I get paid when the cabinets go up. It is laid out in a payment schedule that we agree upon. On larger jobs, I might get paid 20 times. I know this is unconventional... but it only took one time getting burned to learn.
And if they don't pay when required... pack up and go to next job until paid. You normally don't get your first tool loaded before they have a check appear miraculously!
I charge for quotes if it requires some design or plan from me. If it is a simple door replacement... I figure if they are so cheap to take the information and do it on their own... I would have had difficulty with the job anyway... no loss. And don't worry... when the cooler weather hits and they find out that they didn't shim it properly or insulate it well... they will be calling.
that pay schedule isn't so weird ...
I do the same.
I bill for each seperate phase prior to start ... like a start check each time ..
and the next phase's check is due upon completition of the last ... and the next phase doesn't start until that check is recieved.
I don't bankroll anyone ...
and I don't walk around with a pocket fulla their money either.
Seems very fair to me ....
the first start check usually includes the framing package ...
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff
But if I understand him correclty it is only for the materials.
He does not get labor until the job is finished.
Correct.
If the outstanding bills will be in excess of 1k (I try to break out the pay schedule, hover, so the bill will not be in excess of 1k), I do get some up-front money. Otherwise, I do bill when the phase is complete... that is the "weird-bird" part.
I know a lot of contractors get labor up-front... and that is cool. But when the HO sees that I bill when complete (even if it is only a little work), they are much more comfortable.
So far... only one gave me trouble... on the final bill... since I started doing it this way. Filed the lien, and they paid within two days of the filing. If anyone did challenge the lien or didn't pay, I only have to contend with small claims court (which I can do myself).
One other benefit. I get the HO to sign off on the approval of work completed at each phase. Keeps communication flowing well as the job progresses. I want the HO to be aware of what is going on at each phase, and I want feedback often.
Plans are nice... but as we all know, HOs can sometimes be overwhelmed when the work begins. By getting constant feedback, I can adjust if necessary. It makes for a happier HO in the end.
Edited 8/1/2004 1:56 am ET by Rich from Columbus
I like that as a HO.
As a HO I have real problems with large deposites say more than $5k) for a job does not start within a week or two.
And it has nothing to do with trust.
But if the contract has say $35k for start of 100k project that will start in 6 months what guarantees do I have that he will able to perform or return the money.
There are many things outside his control such as accident and illness.
On a job of that size, I have performance bond capability that I invoke. It's not easy to come by. But, I agree that there are many factors that can effect ability to perform.
On a 100k job, however, the materials bill is going to be earlier than a couple of weeks. Up to three months on some jobs.
Unless the homeowner is willing to pay inflated cost of materials, the wholesale supply houses are running about 6 weeks out... and many times, the bill is due at order.
Custom materials (which are very common on larger jobs) have long lead times. I have seen situations where an archy has speced materials that take 6 months for delivery... thank god not on one of my jobs :). I did have to laugh when the contractor on that job was biatching about the bill for the custom material coming in 2 days... but the actual material would be 6 months out.
A mason... well, that is a whole other story... they want 50% up-front just to get on the schedule. I have a mason that is inexpensive and does great work... but that lower cost/good work comes at another price.
The bills start before the the project begins. I work with the HO to establish reasonable expectations. I explain these things up-front. If they have an issue once they understand everything... it is easier to "just pass-on-by". It will be a hassle every step along the way.
I got "schooled" this Spring. A large living room and dining room remodel to include bay windows, built-ins, crown moulding, trim etc. On my last meeting I handed them the drawings I had done and told them I would call with a start date and then they could send a deposit. You got it...... "Oh we decided to go in another direction and the carpenter has already started the work".
Bottom line: it was my bad. This was going to be a great project and I fell head over heels for it. For a second I took my hand off the switch, took my eye off the prize, got sucked in and forgot about being a businessman first.
Hang in there!
MES
"I like people, I just do better without them."
Never give away your homework.
I was burned once on a larger job. Only once. The homeowner had a cousin who was just starting out but had no idea how to proceed. My brother who was my partner (until then) left the plans that I drew up and the line by line materials spreadsheet with the HO. You can guess what happened.
My current job I am doing on a cost/plus basis. I sat in thier dining room and showed them line by line on my laptop. The HO asked for a copy. I calmly explained he could have a full copy of everything when his check clears. No problems.