Which way is crown supposed to go?
In a previous post, someone referenced Gary Katz’s website where he discussed the 135 degree cope. In his photos, IMHO, the crown looks upside down. (see attached photo)
Maybe it’s different with the crown he’s using, but compared to the standard crown you can pick up at the big box, it doesn’t look right to me. Of course the crown can go either way based on the customer’s preference, but what is the standard way to hang it?
Replies
In the crown I've installed, I've placed the extra detailed edge
down. Your picture is upside down from the way I would have installed
it.
This doesn't mean I'm right!
I agree with brooks; that crown seems upside down to me, too.
Maybe it was just for demonstration purposes?
The crown in that photo is upside down.
As to why?......I've no idea.
Remodeling Contractor with no ties to the Glass City
Most crown shapes have an ogee and cove, the cove is down.The photo appears to have only a cove with a molded edge. This crown you would install with the molded edge against the ceiling,the cove is still down.
mike
"Most crown shapes have an ogee and cove, the cove is down"
It may be hard to see in the picture, but the crown in the photo is made up of a large cove and a small ogee. In this case, the cove is installed down. Which I guess would make it right according to your rule.
another photo
on YOUR crown the ogee goes down.
the spring angle for most crowns is measured of the wall.
and is usually <45º
this is so the crown is "taller" than it is "wide"
in other words: hangs down the wall farther than it projects on the ceiling.
Looks better this way.
don't ask me why...
Mr. T.
There's a steering-wheel in me pants and it's driving me nuts!!!
"on YOUR crown the ogee goes down.
the spring angle for most crowns is measured of the wall.
and is usually <45º
this is so the crown is "taller" than it is "wide"
in other words: hangs down the wall farther than it projects on the ceiling.
Looks better this way.
don't ask me why"
( That is the correct answer) Unless of course it is a 45 ;)
While I agree there are no moulding police, the method for putting up crown does have a more aestically pleasing appearance it is hung with the smaller profile on the bottom.
The comment about the 45 is suspect. The most common spring angle is 38 degrees from the wall. If anyone were to turn the moulding 'upside down', the spring angle would change to 52 dgrees and would look 'wrong' as it is flatter than taller. I guess if its a 45, you wouldn't change.
I would install the crown with the cove down,I did not see the ogee in the first pics.After seeing the ogee, I still would install cove down.
mike
so a cove is always down ?
so a cove is always down ?>
Just about.
Hey Jer,
The small looking detail should be down.....I thought that it was a cove cut, but looking further it looks like an ogee/fillet.....THIS smaller detail should be at the bottom......Unless other details and design in the space it is used in will help support the other "upsidedown" style and feel.
Sorry for the earlier confussion on my part.
The belly of the large curve of crown moulding should be at the bottom under the large sweep that goes back inward to the edge. It should look like a beer gut or a buxom woman in her later years who has fallen under the tyranny of time and gravity.
Yep, you are right. That's a VERY important note for observation for anyone that is unfamiliar with crown orientation......
....a beer belly.........? ..suddenly it all makes sense to this amateur !
Any possibility that the crown isn't the only piece of moulding going up on the wall? Don't know about the greeks, or anything else, but in these parts it's customary to take a piece of base with cap, put it upside down at the top of the wall, and mount the crown to that (so lack of detail at the wall side of the crown makes sense -- the profile of the base cap provides it). About a year ago, I did a coffered ceiling where all the insides of the coffers were made that way and it matched the mouldings in the rest of the house, as well as in most of the neighborhood (built about 120 yrs. ago).
The Greeks did tons of stuff on walls, relief friezes were huge with all kinds of scenerios.
Nearly always....it all has to do with visual WEIGHT.....the taller rails are at the bottoms of most home doors and the same is true in classical column work and most furniture pieces. Most things need a visually heavier BASE, then you go up from there. If you break these "rules" you need to know how to do it right and have it work. Like rules of photographic composition, there are lots of "rules", to break them you have to have other things in play to offset what you've done.
This may sound a bit confusing. It really comes down to letting your eye have the say....it's a pretty natural thing.
I think most of us have seen crown put up upsidedown and you can tell it's just a bit odd looking.
Edited 2/28/2006 6:02 pm ET by zorrosdens
Thank You......
Count me in for an upside down vote.
BILL
J, the answer is found in the past.
Crown was made of plaster in the very distant past... they used a corner cove board (to take up space), then scratch coat loaded with horse hair. The decorative molding was mounted and that acted as a straight edge to drag the shaped trowel along. The trowel would follow the straight edge and follow the ceiling.
That was always at the bottom.
Visualize that cove or shingle mould as the straight edge.
Yes, upside down.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Could it be that he was just cutting it upside down for purposes of coping it??
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Isn't that what they mean by "upside down & backwards"
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm wondering if he installed it that way just for demonstration purposes. Check out the photo I've attached. With it upside down, this little wedge cut would have been easier to cut (and easier to see in a photo)
now the photo is attached...
Lawrence
Although your answer may be correct in how the plaster was applied it has nothing to do with why the crown was done that way.
Crown like all moulding, including columns, plinths, rosettes,......... were studied for their visual as well as there proportional look.
Read any of the books on the anicent Greeks and you'll see how they studied exstensivily all aspects of moulding and there use, as well as the proportions of room size and so on and so on.
Doug
Ancient greeks apparently studied many things-- oft wrong, oft made things more difficult than they should be.
We know what looks right because based on our experience, the sum total of everything that we soak in through the years, it looks right. When you advance to designer status, you can truly look at something without consulting a book, your friends or any expert and decide whether you like that thing or not.
I offered a simple way for all the guys to get it right 90% of the time based on north american methodology.
The greeks do things differently, some of it is tacky in my opinion and simply won't look right here. (I'm talking modern Greek Architecture)
In short--I don't have a rule book.
I do what looks good to me. And if pushed, I could mount crown upside down clad 5 different ways, it wouldn't fit your ancient greek rules and most people would like it.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I do what looks good to me. And if pushed, I could mount crown upside down clad 5 different ways, it wouldn't fit your ancient greek rules and most people would like it.
Lawrence
I could build a house upsidedown and inside out but that probably wont stand the test of time. Something that your obviously overlooking!
Nobody said that these are hard and fast rules and that you must obey them.
You made the claim that crown was designed the way that it is because of some sort of plaster's technique, I simply told you that that wasn't the case, you can belive it or not, really don't make a sh!t bit of difference to me.
I'm pretty sure that I can make that crown inside out and install it seven different ways but that doesn't pertain to the question of "how is this crown typically installed"
Doug
I guess we agree that their are no rules, just generalized acceptable norms that are pretty much undefinable beyond-- it just looks right.
The more you see--the better chance of having your work seen as "right" by a majority.
L
ps. Turning most of the accepted theories about house construction is next... we'll be working on that within 3 or 4 years.
(if it's been done the same way for a hundreds of years--it's time to re-think it)
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
The ogee at the top should be oriented so that the top end is "parallel" to the ceiling. This orientation of the curve is most visually pleasing when looking up. Having the other way around, the ogee seems to dive into the ceiling, instead of sweeping across the top.
I've installed that same crown a bunch of times. Always put the cove on top like you have it, the other way just didn't look right.
DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
Always, always ask first.
I've used the same crown a few times on past jobs.
On one job, we ran a room and a half and the GC can in and about $hit. Says we are running it the wrong way. Says he's from the East Coast and they always run the way you did.
Tear it out and redo it on our dime because I didn't ask him first. Homeowners come in LOVE it done his way.
Next day, designer comes in and tells home owner it's ALL wrong. GC should have had it approved first. Now, homeowner(wife) agrees. Tear it out again.
Later, husband gets the bill. Now he $hits because the GC charged them for my added time and refuses to pay.
Now the GC and I get into it because "he's not going to eat it", "he's not making anything on it:. Husband over hears the discussion and rips into the GC for not taking the responsibilty. Tells him that he's said that I should have ask, why didn't he ask the designer, who has the last sayso. Husband says "if you won't pay him, I will and then take it out of the final bill, it's up to you(the GC)
Soon after this, I found out this guy did this to most other subs. I had a completed bid for another job that was to start in a few weeks, but he hadn't signed it yet. I told him that I wasn't interested in doing the next project. Then, he threatens to sue me for breach of contract because both of the jobs were a "packaged deal".
Oh yeah, homeowner and designer become some of my best refering clients
Don't you just love contracting
Moral of the story, doesn't matter which ways as long as you ask/cover you a$$
Lol. Good story man.
maybe it will get another molding below, like an ogee
otherwise I do it with the detail down, if you have to fit to the ceiling you could lose that thin detail