I’m always amazed when I hire a new guy who has experience, and lays in sheeting without regard to the ‘this side down’ stamp. Red flags go up as they should. I always thought in all cases this meant good side up, but on my last project I used a product called Edge Gold, an OSB product that my supplier convinced me was as good as Advantech. It was about 3.00 / sheet less so I took a shot. It has held up well without much swelling. The only down side I could see is that it seems more brittle. It has several puncture holes where boards where dropped from scaffold. But this is not my real question.
My question is about ‘this side down’. My assumption that good side up, was put into question because the Edge Gold product has two distinctly different sides. The up side has what appears to be a water proof coating, where the down side appears much more stable, its much flatter and smoother. This made me think that maybe the this side down side is engineered in a special way for a glue bond, since a glue bond is no stronger than the bond between the strands that comprise the sheet. Does any one know if there is any validity in my observation?
Replies
Could be that the T&G is not perfectly centered, but as long as all the sheets are the same way that won't matter.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
You can lay osb any way, upside down, etc. I don't recall any sheets I installed that were marked "this side down". The only difference is one side has stud markings and is rougher than the opposite side.Not familiar with Edge Gold osb, I doubt that the side you lay down has any bearing on anything.
mike
Respectfully, the stamp also says space 1/8'' on all sides. That's one a lot of guys seem to miss also. But Johnny's response made me actually call Weyerhaeuser and I found what he wrote was true for this product also.
When you said upside down etc. You don't mean that you don't think there is a strength axis do you. The way the make that stuff is they orient strands in a sheet in one direction and then lay over another sheet of strands oriented perpendicularly to the first, creating a strength axis same as plywood. He said the bottom is smoother because it sets on a stainless steel sheet when they are making it. He also said as far as water proof goes the top is exactly like the bottom. It is all about the spacing. I could have called before I started the thread but what fun would that have been.
Edited 7/12/2005 5:16 pm ET by quicksilver
quickilver...."the stamp also says space 1/8 in on all sides." This has allways raiseda question in my mind . If you are laying out a 56ft roof and you need to allow 1/8in on seven sheets , your going to run off a truss. After scratching my head with one hand and my butt with the other I have decided to go back and cut a saw kerf at each butt. Can you shed any light on how to lay out allowing for the 1/8 in with your tape.
Nails, that is a good question, so good that I was inclined to call GP and see what they had to say, and what they had to say didn't seem like much help. He said you have to either bump the truss, stud or joist or trim a piece every so often to get back on layout. In my experience I have never really thought about this and to be honest with you, I've have never had it really come into play. Although on paper, or as you presented the problem it is obvious: it just doesn't work. The reason it doesn't come into play for me and for a lot of us really is because of the eye joists a lot of us work with have wider flanges. I became a stickler about this (the 1/8'' spacing) a couple of years ago when I took a job as a punch out mechanic for a builder. I used to have to grind the floors prior to hardwood and I saw how much time can be saved from a simple 10d spacer in between sheets. After all of my adult life working as a carpenter seeing the house turn over again and again was a major learning experience. Its amazing how few of us really get to see how our work stands over time, even the little bit of time from frame to occupancy. I left, on the building I'm doing now a strong 1/8 even 3/16, and still have some spots I'll have to grind. We're using RFPI 90's with a 3-1/2 inch flange so it would take a heck of a run for it to came into play.When I saw your question my first thought was, wow are those sheets really eight feet. Ya they are and I think if they took them back a sixteenth everybody would be a lot happier. Again the tech assist person said OSB is OSB through and through, so a cut edge doesn't matter. But who wants to cut edges. Well I'd rather trim every forth one than have to grind the joints. And to be perfectly honest although I try to use the spacing everywhere, the only place where I'm on the deck reminding my carpenters not to forget is on the deck. That is where the most time can be saved by eliminating swelling. Good point.
Quicksilver.......Thanks very much for your reply. The extra effort callling GP is appericated. I know you and I question "bumping the truss",drywallers are not the easiest subs to get along with and rocking the bottom cord could undo stress on them. :). I will continue to go back and cut a kerf with my circular saw in the sub-floor and roof sheeting.
I've never once in my life ever considered spacing sheathing and never did before on a deck or on a roof. I didn't even do it 20 years ago when we were just using 1/2" on the deck and on the roof and never had a problem.So I don't believe that you have to do it at all. The only place that we space is in between each row of horizontal sheathing on the walls with a 10 penny nail.Joe Carola
I've seen many a sheet of plywood buckled. I'm a big gap fan.
I tell the guys, "no bigger than 3/4" on the roof. I'd rather see a 3/4" gap, than a tight seem.
blue
I've never put gaps and never seen buckling. The only gaps I see are the Gaps I buy my shorts from.............;-)Joe Carola
The Gap wars are on!Everybody choose sides now, I'll be a take no priosoners war to the bitter end!LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here is the pic, I'm not sure if you will be able to read it or not. I measured the piece it was 47 1/2" wide from where the groove started(the edge of the piece), to where the tongue started. It was 47 7/8" from where the groove started to where the tongue ended. The piece was cut in half, so I couldn't measure the length.
I was working in a house today and my son pointed down to the floor we were standing on, it said "This Side Down", ha.About 20 years ago I saw my first osb. It was sheathing for the roof we were framing. I figured the slick side had to be for waterproofing, better put that up. Ran the first row from inside, got out on it to run the second, talk about a slippery richard.And, add me to the gappers, even with Advantec...I hate grinding Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I noticed on the Advantech it says sized for spacing, and it still measures a full eight feet. The sizing is in the T&G side. The edge gold measures shorter too. I've heard before that the stamp says this side down so the inspector can see the stamp from the underside of the roof, and joist system. Whether this has any credence I don't know but . But I remeber someone telling me this since this discussion has brought different recollections to the surface.
As far as the gapping is concerned the need to be a bit short does not hold as much importance in the 4' direction of the sheet. 98 out of a 100 times, in both floor and roof sheathing applications the 8' dimension is run perpendicular to the framing members, so that is where the gapping causes problems. The 4' dimension could run 4'3" or 3'8" and would not cause an issue except for the guy doing the takeoff. Matt
If you're saying swelling occurs more at the butt ends I agree this has been my experience also. I think this is because the T&G are self spacing. I've ripped sheets where we had joist direction change and have had the same amount of swelling. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at.. Oh your mean gapping throwing you off layout. Well like I said before I've never really had this issue come into play. And really never even considered it until 'nails' pointed it out. So yes then I agree.
If they say space an 1/8", they are 1/8" short of 4'x8'.
'Plywood' is 4x8. Sheathing is 3'11 7/8" x 7'11 7/8"
I was framing a floor once with the sheathers right behind.
The foreman and the lead sheather came complaining that my layout was off.
They was butting the sheathing sheets.
I had to show them both the facts.
SamT
If they say space an 1/8", they are 1/8" short of 4'x8'.
'Plywood' is 4x8. Sheathing is 3'11 7/8" x 7'11 7/8"
Not the sheets i use. Full 8 footers and still asking for the 1/8 space.
WC,
Hmmm. . .
Don't know what to say. . .
Write the manufacturer and ask "WTF?"
Change yer layout? nah.
Rip the sheets? nah
Change brands? yeh, that's what I would do. Vote with money.
SamT
I hafe never seen the sheets that are 1/8" short either. Maybe a regional thing? Matt
weyerheisen(or whatever) the people with the big W stamped on their OSB. I noticed today that the sheet I was cutting on said "sized for spacing". I'll take a pic tomorrow, and maybe I'll remember to measure it.
I was using it as a workbench all morning, then I sat down for lunch, and used it as a table. That's when I noticed the stamp, and thought of this tread immediately. I definetly need to get a life.
Dustin I measured some sheets myself today to be sure Advantech and GP OSB just to make sure and both were 4X8. I'll be curious to hear your findings, if there is such an animal. Because there certainly seem like one should exist.
Well, I'm here on the Westcoast where they make a bit of plywood and I've never seen anything 1/8th" short....if I did, I'd send it back....I may not be sheathing with it anyway....that 1/8th" may come in handy somewhere. :-)
But, then, because I can always get good doug fir plywood, I don't use OSB....may be a different breed of cat.
Edited 7/14/2005 7:00 pm ET by Notchman
As far as sheathing being and I/8'' shorter 47-7/8 X 95-7/8, I've never seen it. It would create the reverse problem because obviously by the eighth sheet you would be off layout on the other side of the 2X framing. For it to work it would have to be an sixteenth short. I think I'll write my congressman. This is simply unacceptable and stupid.As far as never seeing buckling, I can't imagine a carpenter never seeing buckling while butting sheets unless he is just framing and not seeing the job again or unless he's building in quite dry conditions. Here in my climate zone butting sheets will produce a 3/16'' rise in about 6 weeks consistently. If you are not spacing I think you are doing a disservice to the overall product. This is just from my experience in observing jobs at all stages of building.I was almost going to say that to think you're smarter than the manufacturer recommendations . . . but as nails pointed out yesterday them manufacturers aint none to smart.
>>>"As far as sheathing being and I/8'' shorter 47-7/8 X 95-7/8, I've never seen it. It would create the reverse problem because obviously by the eighth sheet you would be off layout on the other side of the 2X framing."If the sheathing is 1/8" and you space 1/8" you will never run off layout. 1/16" would not be enough.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You're right Jon, Sorry wasn't thinking.
I just wonder if you get all different responses from a field rep than your phone call. I don't think OSB manufacturers would spend all the money on ink for nail lines out of the kindness of their hearts. They must want nails driven though that side for a reason. I always thought the smooth side would be more waterproof until I read that the rough side was. I have been wrong before.
According to Huberwood (manufacturer of Advantech), the T&G edge is set to automatically space it self by having the top edge of the groove shorter than the bottom edge. If you put it upside down, you don't get the spacing & can have buckling (of course you could also not tap it all the way in).
It has nothing to do with good or bad sides. I assume it is the same with your product.
You're correct , I wasn't thinking about a tongue and groove osb.
mike
Walka bility..the ruff side is always up. and it is easier to print " this side down" on a smoothe surface.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
What are dreadlocks made from?
Did a search. Looks like the stuff is made by weyerheauser. Why dont you call them and see what they say and let all of us curious types know the answer ?
http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/ourbusinesses/buildingproducts/structurwood/emhe.aspBill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Hey, Mr. Bill. Check out the forth post.
sweep-a-billy ...
smooth side up for floors ...
rough side up for roofs.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
10-4..lol Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
What are dreadlocks made from?
U fancy roofing guys ...
always forget there's other parts of the house!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
yup..I don't see many copper floors or cabinets. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
What are dreadlocks made from?
I installed some "titanium" colored cabs once ...
very cool ... not my style ... but very cool.
bet they got copper out there somewhere ...
if not ... we're rich buddy!
actually working on doing some installs for a place called "CopperLeaf Kitchens" ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Talk to us, we can wrap a basket ball if neeed be.. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I've been welding all day, what is YOUR excuse?
Jeffhttp://www.frigodesign.com/sscabinet.html
story of my life ...
day late ...
dollar short ...
that sorta thing.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You've gone and inspied several comments from the gallery here.
#1 Dontcha know that carpenters don't read instructions anymore than men ask for directions. Besides, who likes negative speach? - down is what happens after sex.
#2 "my supplier convinced me was as good as Advantech. It was about 3.00 / sheet less so I took a shot. It has held up well without much swelling. "
now you know what you gave up for three bucks. brittle material that still swells is definitely NOT as good as ADvantec
#3 Rough side up would be nicer to walk on a roof. I don't know your product, but it might be treated for vapour resisance more on one side than another
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Worst ride I ever took off a roof was riding an osb 'carpet' down. Some yahoo used a piece of scrap to fill in the 'other' side of the hip roof by placing that piece upside down. "I didn't have to cut the angle or nothin!" Well next morning early I'm walking up the hip with a full 4x8 and the frost had made that one piece sooo slippery, i fell so fast I was lucky to get my fingers out from under the sheet. I barely had time to think to grab my hammer when I was at the eave. Second thought was 'where were the bricklayers working and where are the pallets of brick?" I glided in right between 2 pallets and nose dived into their sand pile. Talk about sheer luck. I tucked and rolled and wound up on my feet, no harm. (except for the smell...)
Sorry about the negetive speech. I hear you. In this day and age of engineered products I think it is more important than ever to start abiding by manufacturers suggestions. I think many of the products we deal with today are dependant on these prescribed installation techniques to warrant proper performance. As far as the brittleness goes. You're right. This is something that had I of known, I may have made the other choice. With hard wood floors throughout I don't see this as being a problem., unless therre is going to be someunforseen nailing nightmare. And to be fair the brittleness is only my sense, honestly Advantech may have acted the same. Although I think I'll be going back to Advantech next time.As far as the swelling, I should have clarified and said its sweeling was no different than Advantech.
I have a house in drywall now that I used Edge Gold on. I don't know the answer to your question(s) but have noticed pretty much the same stuff you mentioned. The surface of the subfloor is quite rough now that it has seen some wear & tear and got some water; framers did a poor job of papering the valleys - what a surprise!! :-) A few puncture holes - I patched them with bondo. I had also drilled a few drain holes in it - same remedy. All in all I think it OK stuff, but I'd reserve it's use for cheapest houses that I know will get the perm roof pretty quick. Other than that, it's Advantech for me.
6 months ago I asked here about Edge Gold and no one knew anything specific about it.
Re "This Side Up" - even my non english speaking (reading) amigos know that... :-) One house I'm doing right now has sidelights of the front door. On the side lights there were stickers that say, in BIG letters "THIS SIDE OUT". I think the stickers were so that when the door unit was assembled in the building supply's door plant, the workers would know which side of the sidelites went out.... I removed the stickers as I didn't want the homeowner thinking that my workers were so dumb that they might not know what side of the door assembly went out.... :-)
Edited 7/13/2005 7:07 am ET by Matt