Some of you know that I’ve been renovating an old place for a new customer this winter. I’m going to post a few photos here of the almost finished product over the next couple of days as they are moving in and hanging the picuters.
It also means that they are adding a dozen last minute items that nobody bothered to tell me about.
and I get to patch a couple of walls where they changed their minds about what picture to hang there.
But a major reason for this thread is that I can make it a learning item for homeowners and newbie contractors with regards to controling costs. Decisions the interior designers made and the way they made them added about 40 – 50K to the total cost of the job. I’ll do the running comentary with each set of photos as I go through.
First,
At the back entry, theere is an old service stairwell that was budgeted for plaster patching and white on white for paint colours. They chose some wall paper from abroad that had a higher price tag than I’ve ever heard of before – and it’s not cheap to wallpaper in a stairwell, especially when it goes up two flights.
Hey, I can do handrails too!
Excellence is its own reward!
Replies
Now, as you mount those stairs, you come to a unique situation in the old house. It disembarks into a bathroom. I had offered a redesign that made the bathroom slightly smaller and created a hallway leading to the rest of the bedrooms. The IDs talked them into keeping the larger bathroom which is nice but if you come up these back stairs, you need to go through it to get to other rooms on the second floor.
I had asked for specifics from them on where they wanted to hang racks in the framing stage when the walls were down to studs here so I could add blocking. No answer so I made the wood wainscot cap to trim out the ceramic tiles and provide a mount for towel bars.
They ended up wanting a soap rach/glass shelf above that. I would have placed that glass shelf immediately above the faucet where you see towel bar and then put two towel bars along the length side of the tub.
There is also a toilet to the left of the vanity, slightly recessed into the wall for privacy/taste.
Excellence is its own reward!
One more for now, then I've gotta go do some stuff.
If, instead of going up those stairs, you had turned slightly, you would be entering the playroom, which is well lighted with lots of wondows and has another exterior door leading out to the covered porch with a nice porch swing. This room used to be the dining room.
Now, these IDs were better than many to work with and did a tolerable job, for sure, but like many interior designers, they couldn't always dicide what was the right colour for something until they saw it. So the walls of the playroom went from white to linen after everything was done, and the ceiling of the red sitting room has about eight coats of paint because the first colour was described bt the owner as a "particularly hideous shade of used bubble gum" They finally got it OK though. BTW, red is a hard colour to cover or cover with.
I am heading out to the shop now to build a piece for the wall over the sofa in the playroom. disc 1.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Interior designers suck, suck, suck! The good ones out there are too far and too few between. I don't know how they do it, but they have a knack for turning every job into something about them, and not the customer. The only thing that is the customers is the money which designers don't seem to have a whole lot of respect for.
Don
These guys are a pair. One of them is a BS artist from NYC, while the other has some concern for budget and some good taste.
The owners are a hubby who has concerns for budget but certain demands for quality ( which is why I'm there, of course ;o)) and the wife who wants what the BS artist shows her.
I know of a job that was nearly finished when the IDs were first brought in. Bad move to wait that long. They wanted to put a four poster canopy bed into a cape bedroom with kneewalls. That meant the builder had to add on a dormer to increase loft space.
Oh, and by the way, could you get that done by next week?
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Excellence is its own reward!
Those are some weird clients with bad taste. They deserve the IDs...
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Even if someone says to me where bath accessories are to be hung so I can install blocking, they end up changing their minds anyway. One of these jobs I'm just going to sheet the entire bathroom with plywood. There was one time when an ID asked me to raise a towel bar up one inch because the towel he picked out hit the toilet tank.
I've seen mantles brought in from junk shops that don't fit the fireplace openings, luminaires imported from europe which looked like they'ed burst into flames the first time voltage got swithed on to them, and portraits hung on walls which now need a spotlight on them switched from over there, no problem, lets just open up the walls, oops, already wallpapered.
I heard a couple twink ID's in a bathroom once, talking about "rods", and then some laughter. They sure weren't talking about shower rods!
Not only rods, there's knobs too.
I had the cabinet knobs approved by one of them to be brushed nickle. I was installing them when the other one came along and said wait up while I call owner.
Changed to polished chrome.
Ka Ching!
Anyways, In the next photo here (7), there will be a made up chandelier that is getting buiilt from a lens on a navigation bouy. This is the dining area entered from the door you could see in that white playroom. The table was an oak tresle table set they had me cut down to fit the room and they painted it gloss black. You see a lot of that gloss black in this house. I'd hate to be the housekeeper. Every bit of lint or dust sits under a magnifying glass on gloss black.
I'm throwing in a shot (20) from another of the bathrooms. Notice the light over the med cabinet. The IDs provided this and apparantly didn't think about the two pieces needing to work together. The bulb housings wanted to sit almost on top of the med cab so I had to build mounting boxes to bring them out where they wouild do some good and not burn the house down..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin:
What is the white floor surface in the "playroom"? Looks like painted wood, but I can't quite tell....
=====Zippy=====
It was some nice maple flooring!
Speaking of designers choices!...!
The Sitting room has the only original floor finish left, plain pine planking. It was the worst and I figured, "No way will they keep this." so Ididn't even protect it to start out. Then I found out they wanted it for "effect"
Get yourself set because in this next picture of the living room area, they painted the floors red! Took six weeks from the time I was ready to paint them for these guys to tell me which shade of red they were choosing and the owner was crying about why can't we move furniture in yet - your painters are mighty slow.
The red floor paint is over a beautiful antique heart pine. One of the arguements that I lost.
now - I always dedfer to the decorators when it comes to colours because, well, what do i know about things like that. So somebody please educate me why these colours go together????
After hearing plenty of comments on the wallpaper during the process, I kept telling everyone that it would eventually all come together once the furniture came in...
In bright sunlight, the red floor reflects off the linen white ceiling onto the mint green divan and argues with the blue stripes...
By the way, part of the added cost was to repaint the ceiling when they changed their minds about that colour. First they chose gloss white. I asked, are you sure???????? When it turned out to be too harsh and institutional looking, I suggested a satin with a tint but they wanted a gloss linen. Gloss shows flaws so the labor to eliminate flaws... every coat got sanded and swept with tack clothes.
The painters did a fantastic job with this place! The quality of the paint job on baseoards is better than some furniture work I have seen!
They patched a lot of plaster and skimmed it smooth to have flat base for the wallpaper too. Good job guys!
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Excellence is its own reward!
Is that a giant crack I see in the beam above the fire place? The craftsmanship looks wonderful in all of your pics, but the decorating, well...you know.
The beams are old hand hewn with some checks in them. Not structural damaging.
We had considered wrapping them for smooth painting and classical styling but the old man wanted to keep them as a testament to the old craftman who first built the place and the wrap to dress them up ould have extended another couple of inches into the headroom, feeling intrusive..
Excellence is its own reward!
Are those steps to the bathroom a little steep ?
Nice work you do there, Pif . use any piffin screws to attach things ?
Thanks for the compliments - you and everybody else who has been here! I know the job has lifted my name in the owners social circle.
Those stairs are the original 8/8 which scares the goosegrease out of me to go down them. but they are common in old New England homes, especially for the back staircase. The formal one is 8/9.25", still a little steep but liveable..
Excellence is its own reward!
Nice Work, Piff. The pride is in the details.
When my neighbor was having his house built, wife shows up with ID, can't remember if it was before or after drywall, and ID announces that the windows on the main floor are all wrong... The ones in the family room in the back of the house needed to be bigger, and I don't know what the deal was with the ones in the front of the house (living room and dining room) - maybe they had to match the ones in the back of the house or something... Anyway, at this point the siding is complete on the back of the house and the front windows are already bricked in!!!! It was all torn out, brick lentils and all!!!! Must be nice to have disposable $$$$!!!! Contractor just laughed about it - it was a cost plus bid... This was just one of several changes (that I was aware of). Same deal with newly "needed" arch top garage doors... Flitch beams torn out and raised ~1'!!! Like you said Piffin: ca-ching!!!Matt
I've seen the same amoung architects. Some will have a stronger inclination for making it nice on the interior while the exterior looks terrible. Others will create a great facade but the interior layout is nearly unliveable..
Excellence is its own reward!
..."particularly hideous shade of used bubble gum"...
That's a classic line if I ever heard one. Right up there with "faux midwestern".
Can't imagine anyone wanting a stairway to terminate into an upstairs bathrom.
I've heard it said more than once that architects should work in the field for a couple of years before they're allowed to draw stuff. But what could you do with IDs? Make 'em live in your house for a couple of years after they redesigned it ???
Last night I had a dream that my flour sack was kidnapped and the abductors started sending me muffins in the mail. [Frasier]
Very nice work piffin. Looks like you've nearly finished this one.
You've built what my wife would call a 'grandma house.' Neat to look at, but I wouldn't last a day without starting to tear out that loud huge pattern wallpaper. Reminds me of a house some friends of my parents built. Very loud elaborate decorating. They moved and found someone who liked the house so much she also bought much of the wall hangings, furniture, ect.. Again neat house to look at, but would drive me insane to live in it.
The stairway going into the bathroom reminded me of a house we looked at. Big unfinished basement, except they'd built a big, extremely nice bedroom at the bottom of the stairway. Lots of fancy woodwork, ect.. Lots and lots of unfinished space, but you had to go through the bedroom to get to it. Much of the basement had an elaborate model train set in it. House even had its own bomb shelter. That place was a trip.
Again, nice work.
Some of these older house were built "shotgun style" where the hallways didn't exist to save space and you always had to go through one room to access the next. This bathroom situation was an especially bad example of that. Stairwell patterns shows how this staircase winds up to the attic past the bathroom.
Luckily, there ia a front, formal staircase that I'll lay on you here, along with some more "gramma house" shjots of a peek into some bedrooms...
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Excellence is its own reward!
These ID guys did do some good work here too and overall, they were better to work with than some. No hissy fits, and they did find some good fixtures and fabrics at decent prices.
This next photo is from a bedroom that I liked. I think of it as the George Washington room. It faces east, has a view of the water, and the door beyond leads to another small bedroom that is labeled Nursery. Standing in the same place but turning to the left, there is a hall accessing that bedroom by going past another bathroom (21) If you get lost, ask the lady in the corner for help.
A lot of these old houses have small places that are hard to get pictures in 'cause you can't back up far enough....
Excellence is its own reward!
Definately understand the elimination of hallways to save space. Have seen that in many homes. Helping my sister do her basement, and because of where the plumbing comes out of the floor the downstairs bathroom will be accessible only through a bedroom. It was that or put a hallway in, which would make the bedroom really small.
This entire place looks like some of the dollhouses I've seen. My folks once owned a gift shop that sold doll houses and furnishings. You've just built a really big doll house for them to live in.
While the quality of work looks great, it'd drive me nuts as a house.
Interior Desecrators, oy! Looks like it'll be a pretty neat house for the next tenants, after they get rid of all that stripped stuff.
What's the deal with that hand rail? How was it done? The paint job, I mean...I'm sure you used the crapusquare when you made it<G>
Once did a study entirely in walnut, not an inch of drywall showing, The IDs had it painted! Still makes my marbles draw up thinking about it... EliphIno!
Which handrail? The plain jane round bar?
The house originally had a 2x3 put up with screws through blocks to the wall. I took it down to let the painters have clear sailing. Then when I found out the wall would be papered, I didn't want them to have to work around it and some of the old plaster worried me for attachment of hardware, so I milled the mounting rail from 1x6 poplar with 5/16 beaded edges and had it pre-painted with the trim colour of the hall. The rail is standard fir stuff pre-painted gloss black. I used biscuits to make up the returns with glue. I hung the mounting rail and the black handrail after the wall paper was up and the painters were gone. Had a small line showing at the glue joint on the return that I touched up with my Sharpie..
Excellence is its own reward!
I hate going back through threads in Desparao, especially to look at pics...but don't the handrails have a pattern applied to them? Could be my dust filled eyes (lot of sanding on those white oak panels today)...anyway, if there is indeed a pattern, how'd you get that on there? EliphIno!
Nah. Probably the power of suggestion and reflected light.
In the red sitting room, the casings ( Original) have an embossed pattern. I used the Williams and Hussey to replicate casings for other places that I needed to..
Excellence is its own reward!
From what I can see, you have made a "technically" nice job of high quality. I can understand why you don't care for it. For me too many pink ships, too many stripes and on the whole too pale for me. But if the check clears................Hey I've install purple formica countertops!! And they loved it!!
The check has clear sailing! The captain would have liked to have had a little less canvas out though, I'm afraid. I was his sea anchor to hold things steady in the storms.
Yuch on the puple formica.
I had a job two years ago where they mentioned blue countertop so I collected up a bunch of blue and bluegray chips to sample to them. One even looked like a mable veining under water that wasn't too bad but I made the mistake of including a chip that was a solid, bright blue blue, a little brighter blue than that blue scree ofdeath we hear about in Windoz terminology. I figured to have it there for a "See how nice this one looks in comparrisson to that ugly solid blue there" but before I could barely start to show them, the wife pounced on that one, certain that it was what she wanted. I almost had to swallow my tongue on that one!
LOL
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Excellence is its own reward!
Looks like a nice house but that sailboat wallpaper, somebody please pinch me.
That is the most hideous stuff I've seen, and I don't like the pink ceiling much either, but if they are happy...
Looks good, and I especially like that railing detail ;) any special tools required for that?
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
The check has clear sailing! The captain would have liked to have had a little less canvas out though, I'm afraid. I was his sea anchor to hold things steady in the storms
In keeping with the nautical theme, between the ship wall paper and the stripes, I need some Dramamine. The horizon won't stop moving.
Your pirate days are all behind you then?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your pirate days are all behind you then?
Nah. I just need a bland diet when it comes to wallcovering.
Do you get to do much sailing in your neck of the woods? I used to sail in Penobscot Bay a bit when I had a boat in Boston. Now I have a friend with a boat, but it never gets to Maine.
Only in my dreamsI am a landlubber, 'cept when I travel the ferry.Less expensive to dream of sailing than to own the boat
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I stuck my neck out and tryed something unique to compromise with the desecrators. I ( Gasp!) mixed differen crown moldings together and made it work nicely.
The budget and original plan was for the larger bedmold you see on the old beams to run all the way around the room too.
Decorators felt that it was important to have a larger crown proportionate to the size of the room. In theory, I agreed with that idea but it would have been ridiculous against the beam size, almost hiding it. I found this other crown from Dykes Lumber in NY that was appropriate for house style and size of room.
See that there is the same crown but larger profile in the dining room beyond the beam above the sconce.
The angled wall was part of original. It is the plumbing chase to a bath above. I made it with a removeable panel for access and the paperer matched her paterns on it when she did the wrapping.
Nobody even notices the crown job though. Wanna know what really brings out the raves? Look at 19. It's just a goofy little solution I made up in three hours out of spare parts for a telephone table in the hallway. It has a slot for the telephone book and a hole for the cords to drop through in the back and it uses an otherwise wasted space. I thought it was a simple no-brainer, utilitarian idea but everone who sees it is going ga-ga.
Never can figure what winds their clocks or holds their socks up..
Excellence is its own reward!
OK, as a gurl, and a non-construction=involved gurl, I've been thinking about this one all day. I've decided the ship wall paper is lovely, but not in such a huge dose. Use it in one place. Maybe just one wall. Also, I think the scale of those two pink/red wall papers doesn't work with the scale of the prints on the upholstery. They are competing, not complementing. The blue stripe has got to go. It is too overwheming. I could make a case for the green divan and the red floor, but throw the stripes in there and you lose me. All I see is stripe. If they have to have wallpaper, they needed something softer in there.
The painted floors are pretty, but why paint over the beautiful woods? I like the structure, and the moldings and lovely ceilings (sigh, drool) and the special little details like the phone table, but I'd do some major color adjusting to soften and mute stuff a bit. A taste issue, I guess.
I don't have a particular point of view pro or con IDs, but I'm willing to take the stand that how our surroundings look is as important to some of us as how well constructed our house is. I can certainly see how scheduling conflicts and changes are frustrating, and it would make me nutty to spend and extra 40-50K on decorating influenced changes. Even if I had it.
Nice thread, Piff."There is a land of the living and a land of the dead and the bridge is love, the only survival, the only meaning."--???
You're hired! When can you move? Don't forget your samples!
LOL, you do have good taste! You expressed my every thought. The ship wallpaper may not look quite as good in photos but I like it on the wall and it was the favorite of the painters and paperers too. Just a little too much of it.
One paper that was in consideration for the nursery ( which I haven't shown yet - it's for you - here) was very loud like wrapping paper for a four year old boy's birthday present or maybe a very hyperactive eleven year old mama's boy's bedspread. As you can see, they ended up with a sedate, soothing stripe. Some rooms here are so loud they wake up the cat. Others are very tasteful. I wonder if some decisions were made by saying, "OK, you do that room and I'll have my way in this room."
One of the things I've learned from working on houses like this and with budgets like this is to have patience and to bite my tongue. I can't count how many times that I have offered advice on many different jobs and had it rejected, generally by someone with the attitude, "Oh, he's just the carpenter" ( I almost named this thread by that phrase). Then a year or two later, they say, "You know, I wish that I had listened to you" and occasionally, I'll get hired back to rebuild it the way I see it being right! That is so sweet! But at the time of rejection, I don't let my hurt ego spoil the fun. Just being right is 80% of the satisfaction.
Reputations are built over a lot of years. Each of these customers learns to trust me and rely on my judgement more and more. So every year, a higher percentage of my income is from design work.
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Excellence is its own reward!
" it'd drive me nuts "
One of their friends - an old lady - stopped in to look around while they weren't there. She commented on the LRm colours by saying, "I suppose you can stand it for only a few months of summer but it would drive me crazy to live in it all year long".
Excellence is its own reward!
Very nice, just not my taste. Everything is too overdone for me.
I love woodwork, but have toured fancy houses where the entire room is wood. coffered ceilings, paneled walls the works. Nice, but it's too much for me to really like. Last one I saw was an entire walnut room. Tons of lights, and still was too dark in that room. A light colored normal ceiling would have been a huge improvement, and probably $20,000 cheaper.
Now take that same room done with some nice built in cabinets, crown molding, and trim....WOW. Sometimes less is more.
Thedora's ship comment. In a smaller dose, contrasting with some regular walls, that'd be fantastic. Just seems too much as is.
Not sure you could put the stripes into a small enough dose. <G>
"Not sure you could put the stripes into a small enough dose" LOL
That has to be one of the most precious comments in this whole thread!
I like the beaded boards on the ceiling. It flanks the older beams pretty nice. The old ceiling was something else. I dug out one of the "before" pictures to show you. It had an inch of plaster weighing down an understructured floor above. It needed more repair so we took it all the way off so that 1/2" SR would be lighter and to shore up a couple spots while giving the electricians access to above.
Once we got it stripped, she decided that she liked beaded boards
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Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 7/3/2003 12:20:53 PM ET by piffin
I'll have to go back and find a picture of that room as it was redone.
Wow, that was a very nice, comfortable, homey room. I could live there with no problems. Great place to invite a few friends over to shoot some pool.
Still could lose a few stripes, but they're not nearly as overbearing as the new wall paper.
Guess I just have no class. <G>
Edited 7/3/2003 12:31:22 PM ET by BILLYG83440
Other than some of the colours, it is a comfortable home to be in. It was once run as a bed and breakfast place. ( they did the home improvements all themselves so there was a lot of weird wiring and plumbing stuff to re-do.
Funny thing happened. As I was packing up tools to leave the other day and yard man was watering newly planted landscaping, a car pulled in and a guy jumped pout with a great big smile on his face, "Well, Did we find it?!?"
I asked him, "Depends what you're looking for?"
He wanted the B&B right around the corner, but must've liked the looks of this place..
Excellence is its own reward!
This has been great! Thank you so much for posting those pix and your commentary. The workmanship is evident. The decorating is hmmmmm a bit hmmmmm pretty. If you can't play a sport, be one.
Piffin:
Its obvious that you did some fine work on this place; but something still bothers me about this job. I went back through the pictures to try to put my finger on what it was that bothered me, and decided it is all in the decorating! I tend to agree with Theodora's comments about too much of a good thing with the wallpaper, but more than that it is a feeling that with all the slick finishes the ID spec'd, they might as well have built a new house & got the advantages of a better floor plan. Obviously we haven't seen all there is to it, but it seems the character of an old coastal house is now buried under a sea of white and off-white finishes.
I suggest that the ID's be taken out, painted a just-so shade of glossy ecru, and tossed in the sound.
=====Zippy=====
Shucks, And I thought it was just me.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
It was ;-) EliphIno!
Pfiffin...wonderful work. I agree, though, that the big problem with the decorating is simply too much of it. That first bath was beautiful in it's simplicity.
To everyone...remember that there is a different between designing and decorating. What these consultants did was decorating. I would call them interior decorators. Pfiffin was the actual designer...having to cover up wonderful design decisions with decoration.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any governing board overseeing who calls themselves decorators vs. designers.
Unfortunately you are right. A lot of good design recommendations weere ignored in oreder to spend money on decorators who called themselves designers..
Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting thread, piffin. Worth a read.
The most common trouble with poor interior designers/ decorators, is that often don't have any 'vision' perhaps surprisingly. Work with a good one though, clear in thought and concept, and with good technical understanding, and the job generally just sails along.
Got to watch out for the limp-wristed ones (or those ladies in the trade with the coiffed iron hair and permafrost smiles) playing expensively with paint'n'paper, curtains'n'cushions, an' furniture'n'folderol, ha, ha. Slainte.<p href="http://r-gjones.laof.home.att.net/" Website
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any governing board overseeing who calls themselves decorators vs. designers.
There is in many states - They are regulated much like architects in Texas. You can "decorate" anything you want but if you put "Interior Designer" as your title on the shingle you hang out, you better have a license number under it or a fine will likely ensue.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thanks to rez for finding this old thread again. I'd forgotten all about it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,A belated tip of the hat to some great work there!I really liked the 'George Washington' room, too. And your trim solution on the beams. Nicely done indeed.Best,
Steve
I always thought the correct spelling was interior desecrators.<!----><!----><!---->
Congratulations!
Norman receives the much coveted
MrT/brownbagg OneLiner Award.
Saaalute!View Image View Image
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
I am both grateful and honored to receive this award.
snorK*
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Your comment about ID's having to work in the field for a period of time rings true. As an engineer in the airplane business, I was required to work on the assembly line for 2 years before they ever let me near a drafting machine. It just makes sense to live in the "other" world for a time to see what problems we were creating for the mechanics with our design ideas. I spend a lot of time out on the line discussing my ideas with the mechanics before it surprises them, makes everyones life easier.
Experienced, but still dangerous!
I don't know what the qualifications are to hold that title.
I thought the first coat looked al little more like used pepto bismal myself.
Excellence is its own reward!
But what could you do with IDs?
Target practice.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Piffin
I read some of the thread and I think I understand the issue.
you kept talking about interior decorators.. there are interior designers also.. the difference is one has a 4 year degree while the other simply has an eye for colors and style.
The designer has to have the ability to design like an architect
They are also given rudamentary engineering training Plus some hands on experiance.
Like all things there are good ones and bad ones in every field (including contracting)
"you kept talking about interior decorators.. there are interior designers also.. the difference is one has a 4 year degree while the other simply has an eye for colors and style."That should be the case, but is not true in every state.
All it takes to become an interior designer in many states is a pallet, some marketing, and the first big dollar customer.Just as I can function as a residential house designer with no degree, but never as an architect.And as you point out, there are good and bad - good and bad....IOW, I have been complimented by one of my recent customers as having done better architectural work on their home here than their licensed architect did on their other home in Denver, but I have also worked under some excellent Arcchitects, and Interior designers where I have learned a lot along the way, and vice-verse. Three of them are old-world and have already gone to the great drafting board in the sky already.
I am glad to have "studied" under them.Many of my frustrations with IDs is their lack of practical knowledge.
Some of the other is simply a difference in taste and I can live with that when the owners can.But where I get my back up about things - here is one example -
There is a change proposed by the IDs to the owner. I sate, "That will cost about another two thousand bucks" ID pooh-poohs me and says there is no way it can come to that much, you can get it done for 5-600 bucks"
Then the actual cost comes in at $2200 and owner only heard the IDs information because they are higher on the food chain....Then the ID wants to paint a fine oak table to a japan black enamel and tells the owner he can get it done cheaper because my guys waste money. Final product of course had no prep work done and a sloppy spray on with drips, runs and sags down the legs and no spray on the underside to balance the moisture transmitions....but they got what they paid for.I am perfectly happy to stay oput of the IDs business and let him do his thing if he communicates with me, but he needs to stay out of my business and not screw things up.It is an eternal struggle in this business between art and engineering is what it is. but licensing and schooling will not solve the problem. Respect and communication between skilled professionals will.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
licensing and schooling will not solve the problem. Respect and communication between skilled professionals will.
Ayup.
Piffin,
You cannot be a member of ASID without the 4 year degree and while some states may allow a person to call themselves whatever they wish (I don't know but I'm pretty sure that is not the case, I'll check for you) I do know the degree is required to be a member of ASID American Society of Interior Designers..
Sounds like you need to have my sister do the work (she can't, she's an in house lead designer for one of the big HMO's but she not only has practical experiance She built her own house.. When I say built she cut the boards and handed them up to her architect husband who nailed them in place.. They slept in a tent in their living room thru a winter with nothing but a blue tarp between them and 40 below weather.. (excellant story in and of itself.) I wish the magazine would do a feature on it because it's a really neat cottage they did with their own two hands.. EVERYTHING! Well they did have someone spray the foam and they did have someone install the granite counter tops.
I guess you must know that a person can be a licensed architect without belonging to any of the professional organizations, or that one can become a licensed doctor without belonging to all of the organizations pertaining to that profession as well, or subscribing to the American journal of medicine.But it is possible for me to become a member of the kitchen and bath design organaisation by submitting evidence of three of my completed designs and taking a test. Same for the residential home design organ.I would not be surprised if there exists the same possibility for the club you mention. I know there are also differing levels of membership for these various organizations as well, such as student, and associated up to professional.
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Piffin,
No I didn't know that you could practice medicene without a license. Oh, On careful rereading your statement, you were refering to membership in various organizations not to being licensed..
I assume that you do agree that a certain level of education is required in order to do most of the things you spoke of legally.
Definitely which is the point of this disussion - that being the fact that in so many states, one can hang out a shingle to practice ID work with no training or licensing or certification of any kind. Not advisable, but possible.
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Piffin,
Designer or decorator? I think it makes a differance, I wish I could be more definative but my sister isn't at home right now.
OOPS! Just reached her, she doesn't know your states requirements. Minnesota to claim to be a designer you must have the education, pass the national test, pass the state test, have experiance, and be certified. ASID is the certification board..
designerI am trying hard not to argue with you. I am just stating what IS.
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You mentioned the "he's just the carpenter" comment a while back in this thread. Boy, does that resonate with me!
I've been on both sides of that one. I have an engineering degree and worked for a number of years in that field before changing careers and becoming a residential contractor. At my old engineering job, we had a research lab where we used physical models to help investigate the problems we were attempting to fix in the prototypes. Since I've always enjoyed working with my hands, I spent a lot of time in the lab -- machining parts, conducting tests, etc. and working directly with the technicians.
Anyway, when new clients would come in, there was a palpable difference in how I was treated depending on how I happened to be dressed on that particular initial encounter. If I had a shirt and tie, I was given respect. But if I had on some coveralls, I barely received eye contact.
Personally, I don't care how many degrees a person has, how many fancy letters they have behind their name, or how may organizations they belong to. None of those "qualifications" says a thing about their abilities. I've seen PhDs who couldn't use a screwdriver, and I've also seen high school graduates who were mechanical geniuses.
The only way to gauge a person's abilities is to look at their past work and ask questions. To adapt the familiar MLK quote, it's about judging a person by the content of their porfolio, not the letters behind their name.
Unfortunately, way too many people want to skip a little leg work and independent thought and instead rely on pedigrees. It's almost as if these people are afraid to use their own judgment.
I'll let someone else have the soapbox now. ;)
Your comment about clothes make the impression is exactly what happened to me yesterday. I've been doing construction on and off for at least 35 years. I was working on one of my rentals, had some sawdust on from routing and cutting all day, and I had to go meet a couple and their real estate broker to see if they were interested in buying one of my lakefront lots. I got looked over - up and down - for about half the time we were there. I told them right up front, some days I'm in a suit and tie, some days in my overalls. Today, it's overalls. Deal with it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"The only way to gauge a person's abilities is to look at their past work and ask questions. "So I have been hiring done heavy jobs or things that are just beyond me. Been using the same guy, he has been good and dependable (like leave him the keys to the place while he does work while we are out of town dependable). But I was pretty strict with guidelines for each project. I have been doing 70% of the work myself he would always just nod and do it that way. Last job I went out to his place to drop off his payment. . . HOLY CR** he is building a cabin/cottage out by a pond on his property, similar in design/feel to my renovation but about 4 levels higher in innovation/quality. Loft area to die for, a cool/cute mini kitchen, 12" plank floor, exposed beams, this awesome fold out laundry area, everything.I had no idea what he was capable of, I never asked. So now our relationship has shifted. Maybe my ideas were not that bad or he has been bitten too many times, but the man is a craftsman, and could probably be making lots more money on each job for me if he brought some of his ideas to the table. "Your way is OK but this would be better if. . ." goes a long way with me.
Interesting story. I know a couple of contractors who are similar to what you have just described. That is, they are very capable, but they don't often attempt to exert much influence in the design phase of a project.
I've always attributed it to a personality issue -- some people are more comfortable than others in expressing their opinions. The contractors I'm thinking of, for example, just don't seem to like to make waves. They seem to be more comfortable to pretty much take orders rather than risk an argument.
I guess it's an important reminder to ask questions when interacting with people and draw them into the discussion. I always try to ask different tradesmen if they see a better approach than what I've come up with, for example.
Another possible explanation is that some contractors don't want to be drawn into the design process since they either: (a) don't care, or (b) don't get paid for that time. I've always been happy to help and very interested in the design phase, but when I started out, I would often spend lots of hours answering questions and giving advice -- free advice. I felt uncomfortable asking to be paid for my time in that capacity since I hadn't set up the relationship that way from the start. Now I structure my services so that I get paid for design services up front, and I really like it that way.
Exactly my point. He pretty much bills me by the job, sometimes there are snags and he goes over or we change a material and the price moves a bit but for the most part he gives me a bid, I say OK and that is the price. I don't ever screw with him in the $$ department or ask for a lower price. I know he is worth his money. So if in the initial discussion he said something like "I can do this cool thing for XXXX extra dollars" chances are I would say yes and love it and never look back (ok assuming it was only XXXX extra not XX,#### extra). More work for him, more things for me to brag on him about to my friends and co-workers and thus hopefully more work for him.
ASID for interior designers is like the AIA is for architects. In Minnesota at any rate, they're overseen by the same state board as engineers, architects, surveyors, landscape architects, and soils scientists (the AELSLAGID.) If they practice without a license they're subject to fines, just as if I were to practice engineering without a license. From their website: The board examines, licenses, and regulates the practice of architecture, professional engineering, land surveying, landscape architecture, geoscience, and use of title for certified interior design. A person must be licensed before being permitted to offer professional services to the public, or certified before using the title "Certified Interior Designer."
Having said that, I'm sure they're just like any other group of people...some of them are good, some aren't, and the majority are somewhere in the middle.
Yeah, I was researching this more late last night.
Maine does license interior designers.
And I used the state site to search for some names of some people I know who are practicing and advertising themselves as interior desiners here. nobody is listed as licensed, which is interesting....Most of them I know doing it here are from out of state and brought in by the HO. I don't know how thaat applies if they don't maintain an office presence here.
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"Most of them I know doing it here are from out of state and brought in by the HO. I don't know how thaat applies if they don't maintain an office presence here."
That's interesting. I haven't looked that far into the rules for interior designers, but us PE's need to be licensed to practice in a particular state before we can be responsible for work done there (and as a result our names will show up on that state's list of licensees.) For example, I'm licensed in MN and WI, but I wouldn't be allowed to sign off on work on a project in Maine until I got a license there. Most states have reciprocity so all you have to do is fill out the application and pay the fee, but it's still a hoop that must be jumped through.
I recall one job where the electricians carefully fished wires throughout, for new outlets and switches (one guy in the attic, one on the ground, all day, with walkie-talkies, drills, and fish lines). A few holes punched and patched, the whole exterior wall floated and painted. Then the homeowner decided to insulate. Tear all the old plaster off (archie's call), install batts, sheetrock and paint. Sparkies nearly had an anurism.
THEN the interior decorators came in. Oh, these window wells are too shallow for Roman Shades (whatever that is). Re-framed a new wall ON TOP of the old wall, so that the window wells were now like 10" deep. Sheetrock and paint, yes ma'am.
The I.D.'s changed their mind so much, the finish carpenter walked off the job because he got tired of tearing his own work out. As they say, some people have more money than sense.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Homeowners dictate what they want done and stupid homeowners hire stupid decorators who repeat the pattern.
A decorator knows that her job is to keep the homeowner happy and if that means doing things in a stupid way, so be it..
People who have no vision of their own need people to tell them what they want and why. A really smart decorator would do just enough to excite the homeowner into doing more than they planned, if that means doing things foolishly so be it.
Yeah it's sad to say that often decorators don't know what they are doing.. but they do know how to satisfy the homeowner which is the really important thing.. does that mean some craftsmen aren't properly appreciated? I'm certain that's the case.
However a designer is almost never going to be involved in a project of this magnitude.. her niche is further up the dollar chain.. Seldom do they venture off the corporate ladder. The very busiest decorators seldom make 1/2 of what a corporate designer does. If you find a designer doing a private residence, it's either the corporate designer doing the bosses wifes place, a friend of the homeowners, or a poor designer who's not able to keep a corporate job.
A designer wouldn't make elemental mistakes of this nature. Part of why they are hired is their ability to see the project from start to finish and know where to put things and how they go together.. A designer making mistakes like this winds up doing work in private residences just like a decorator..
The hard part for craftspeople like yourself is that because a designer decides colors and trim patterns etc. it would be relatively easy to mistake the two. while that is certainly part of a designers job, it's not the sum of her abilities..
http://books.google.com/books?id=c0dGPU_frc0C&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=sister+parish&source=web&ots=wBiFnkgAvY&sig=sjsM6hBhSK4QifE6TGjOKkF_IzE#PPA88,M1Spend yourself a little time reviewing this book and you will see that a lot of interior designers will disagree with the great insullts you have just heaped on interior designers and many decorators with your shotgun approach.Also, in my research last night, I found it a very ccoomon eror to make the mistake of confusing the two. Newspapers, magazines, and architects do it regiularly.
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Piffin,
I don't know that I've ever advocated a shotgun approach. I'm certain my sister hasn't.
If we are speaking about my house there is a consistant thread thoughout it and while I don't have the training or skill my sister does it comes through clearly to her..
If we are speaking about decorators VS designers that is exactly the opposite of what I know.. designers have the training it takes to make clear subjective decisions regarding suitablity and taste. You may not always agree with that taste but it's an informed decision, not a whim..
The one thread that keeeps appearing here is the inefficency of some decorators.. Designers are trained to be efficent. They wouldn't make the fundamental mistakes several here have posted about,,
Sure as I said homeowners may force decorators to do stupid things because they simply don't understand. A designer shouldn't let the homeowner get away with that.
I have seen sample pieces used where a homeowner can't imagine things , in fact that is the norm, but to build and tear out? Not to a well trained designer.
Your shotgun insult was in stating that no good interior designer does residences - that if they do residential work, they are just no good or not good enough for commecial design work.Take a look around and research the names of Sister Parrish, Hadley, Mark Hampton, Colefax & Fowler, Imogen Taylor, Lyle & Umbach.These are interior designers who are pre-emminent in their fields.
I have worked with them or with people from their practices. I have learned from some of them and some of them havve learned from me.but for you to say they are poor interior designers because they do residential work only serves to show your own ignorance. You can try to make the distinctions without being insulting to an entire class or profession. That is the same as if I were to say tht all salesmen are dishonest. It just ain't so.
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Piffin,
I now understand your comments and in retrospect it was a poor choice of words..
I should have used more qualifiers and listed some exceptions because yes there certainly are..
In addition colleges graduate more students than the corporate world can absorb, thus there is sure to be a overlap.. The corporate world wants to get the best they can for the money they pay and thus their job hiring is sure to be much more complete than the average homeowners. Since their jobs are considered such a plum there is fierce competition for those jobs and any opening means every available applicant will be knock on their doors. (again, put some qualifiers in that last statement)
It's ironic, nearly every single corporate designer that I've met over the years thru my sister has this wishfully idea of starting her own design studio. and every nearly single designer with her own door open yearns longingly for that corporate job.
(qualifiers)
Thanks for that correction.
I haver expressed some of my own frustrations with IDs here in this thread, but I would not want to castigate the whole pile of them for the mistakes a few might make.And sometimes, they can make my mistakes look good!;)
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Piffin
Again, I'm not sure if you are speaking of interior designer or interior decorator when you make those comments. (ID)
Understandably there is a significant differance and to be sure there are certainly some great decorators as well, however the gest of this thread has been about the inefficency of decorators which as I pointed out is understandable given their lack of education compared to a designer..
Just pay attention to my context.All the way through this thread I have been talking about interior designers and have made that clear more than once.YOU have been talking about interior decorators.
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There is a change proposed by the IDs to the owner. I sate, "That will cost about another two thousand bucks" ID pooh-poohs me and says there is no way it can come to that much, you can get it done for 5-600 bucks"At that point you should have said to the HO "yeah and the ID is charging you way too much, I can do their job for half of what they are billing you."