Replies

1. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Apr 25, 2009 12:35am | #1

   a lot of boxes just won't except them. if you have a 40 space box,and room for 40 breakers you will find that you can't snap these in and get more spaces. now some boxes will only have 30 lugs/40 spaces thats how you get the 40 spaces.

   all you can do is buy one and see if it will snap in. i don't think there is any problem with functionality with them as long as they match the box.

   YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'T
   MOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THE
   DUCT TAPE.

2. 
   JTC1 | Apr 25, 2009 12:37am | #2

   Two possible reasons:

   1) Your panel may not be listed for use with the skinny breakers.

   For example (numbers are made up):

   Some panels are listed as 30 spaces / 30 circuits - in this case skinny breakers are a no-no.

   Other panels are listed as 30 spaces / 40 circuits - in this case some of the spaces will accept the skinny breakers.

   Approved listing should be on a paper label inside of the panel.

   2) Those things are pricey!

   It depends on how many skinny breakers you want to add - may be cheaper to install a CH sub-panel or just change the older SEP to another CH panel with more spaces. I would stick with CH so your old breakers will work in new or sub panel.

   Jim

   Edit: alwaysoverbuget types faster than me! 

   Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/24/2009 5:38 pm ET by JTC1

3. 
   cap | Apr 25, 2009 12:51am | #3

   Because the panel may be designed not to take 'em.  Otherwise, they work just as well as a full-height breaker. 

   In new construction, I choose a panel with enough full-height spaces to avoid using slim (pancake) or twin breakers, but I use 'em without reservation in retrofit situations.  As long as the panel is designed to accept 'em.

   Why not put pack the breakers in by using pancakes or twins?  The NEC says materials have to be used as intended by the manufacturer, and consistent with the listing (typically, the U.L. listing).

   So if the manufacturer has designed a panel to take only full height (1") breakers, then you can't use the pancake (1/2") breakers or the twins (two independent 1/2" breakers in a 1" case).  Some panels allow pancakes or twins only in some of the spaces.  Some will take pancakes in all spaces.  The idea is that putting too many breakers in a panel may lead to too much heat accumulation. 

   Another point, the bus onto which the breaker seats also may not be the right configuration for a pancake if it's intended for a full height breaker, or the rail onto which the breaker hooks may not hold a pancake securely.

   Most residential panels are "CTL" designated, that means "circuit limited", and that means no more breakers can be installed than the manufacturer intended; there are blocking mechanisms to prevent the use of pancake or twin breakers, or more of them than the panel is designed for.

   I've seen panels where an uninformed or irresponsible person has cut and filed off the blocking tab on the twin breaker so it'll fit.  Of course, I've seen panels where someone has done much worse.

   A side note, the NEC prohibits more than 42 circuits in a lighting panel (defined as a panel where more than 50 percent of circuits are lighting circuits; more meaningful in a commercial situation, where lighting and other loads are kept separate).  This requirement was instituted in the mid-1940s.  A milkbone to the first person to name the tragedy that precipitated the requirement....

   Cliff

1. 
   PeteDraganic | Apr 25, 2009 04:17am | #5

   The Great Lighting Massacre of Chicago?

   <!----><!----><!----> 

   I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish.        Pete Draganic

    

   Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day.          Matt Garcia

2. 
   jonblakemore | Apr 25, 2009 05:28am | #6

   Cocoanut Grove? 

   Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

3. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 25, 2009 05:33am | #7

   "A side note, the NEC prohibits more than 42 circuits in a lighting panel"I understand that this changed in the 2008 NEC, but have not seen it.And that Canadian code allows much better.But I don't think that the larger panels are yet common available in the US.BTW, I had never seen a 42 breaker panel, single phase. Although I know that they exist.But I saw one one of the home horror stores the other day as a value pack. It might have been a Murry, but not sure..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   JTC1 | Apr 26, 2009 01:58am | #12

   >>BTW, I had never seen a 42 breaker panel, single phase. Although I know that they exist.<<

   The main panel in my house is a 200a, Cutler Hammer, CH breakers - has a cover marked for 42 spaces.  Notice I said the "main panel" as there are 2 sub-panels pulled off of it, a 60a and a 100a - all Cutler Hammer, all CH breakers - have never had any problems with any of them.   All installed circa 1994.

   The humorous detail is that there are 42 spaces marked and twist-outs provided for 42 slots on the cover ( yes, the cover is the one specified for this panel).

   However, there is no buss connection bar available for slot #41 or #42 inside of the panel - they are too short!

   So the reality is that it is a 40 slot panel.  I have the bottom two twist-outs marked with a red X and the word NO - just as a reminder for my failing memory!

   Glad we did not start the single pole breakers at the bottom and work up and blindly removing twist-outs from the cover as we went.

   Would have been humorous - "hey, this cover doesn't fit right" ; snap out two more twist outs; "that's better ----hey, now there's two holes at the bottom!" "Aw man, now I gotta get those plug'em up thingys." I hate when that kind of stuff happens.

   JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 26, 2009 02:57am | #14

   I wonder if that box was orginally designed for 3 phase service? 42/3 gives 14 breakers on each leg. split left and right 21 breakers on each size.And then they decided to change the guts for single phase..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   JTC1 | Apr 26, 2009 10:24pm | #20

   Don't know what the story is / was.

   Panel and cover bought by licensed pro from a large electrical supply house here in town.  We worked together on the whole project, I did 99% of rough and trim - he taught me a lot - he checked my work, lent advice, pulled permits and made arrangements with POCO.

   Just glad we did not snap out those two bottom tabs in the cover.

   JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

4. 
   user-253201 | Apr 25, 2009 01:00am | #4

   Hardluck,

   If you want to be code compliant, you can only use the twins if the box is specifically labeled for twins.

   Will the twins fit in your box?............I know they will in a GE box, not sure about CH.

   Will it work with out problems?..........Probably

   Will it be code compliant?.................. NO, because if its not labeled for twins, the box was not tested with twins, the manufacture won't sign off on it with out the testing and the AHJ will not sign off on it without the manufacture's blessing.

   Is it often done anyway?............... I've seen it done more than once, but it would not have passed an inspection.

   Regards Rich

5. 
   RFM 2 | Apr 25, 2009 05:54am | #8

   The older Cutler-Hammer type CH panels are not able to accept a twin/skinny/tandem/piggyback breaker they did start manufacturing one but the panels they fit are limited & if a panel is not marked to accept a twin it violates the listing to use it, I was POed when they did introduce the CHT breaker, as that is one of the nice features of that line of loadcenters: NO FREAKING TWINS!

   Cutler-Hammer makes 2 lines of panels: Their original line, the type CH "classic",and the former Bryant/Westinghouse type BR line, the type CH is the last decent residential/light commercial loadcenter that has not been cheapened to the same extent like SQ D QO has been & the BR line is the mark of a low end/trunk slammer job.

1. 
   hardluckknocks | Apr 25, 2009 02:55pm | #9

   Glad i asked. thanks for all the replies.That's funny, i put a twin in and the inspector didn't catch it last time he was here when i put a 100 amp sub for the barn. And i'm sure as it was pointed out that my box isn't designed for them - they're 20 ampsas i'm just a dyi-er, are those 'arc fault' breakers worth the money?

1. 
   Scott | Apr 25, 2009 06:56pm | #10

   I don't know what some of the other posters mean by "older" CH panels, but I've been using the skinny ones since 2000. Everything was bought new at Home Cheapo. No problems so far.Scott.

1. 
   RFM 2 | Apr 26, 2009 01:29am | #11

   Your using the Cutler-Hammer garbage line which is the former Bryant/Westinghouse residential/light commercial load center line it became part of the C-H lineup when C-H's parent Eaton bought the electrical portion of Westinghouse Electric Corporation.The "BR" frame breaker is 1" wide & the other C-H line "CH Classic" is 3/4" wide per pole.On another note: The BR line is advertised as "Engineered Value" which in plain English means "cheap".

1. 
   Scott | Apr 26, 2009 05:51am | #15

   For "garbage" (your words, not mine), it has performed well. No nuisance trips from AFI or GFI, reasonable fit and finish, no stripped threads or broken mounts, no loose lugs after almost 10 years, and no defective breakers. I've got nothing to complain about. Have you?Scott.

2. 
   RFM 2 | Apr 26, 2009 07:31am | #16

   It's a bottom feeder panel picking up where Zinsco left off, I judge a building by the electrical gear, & when one finds cheap gear in place, do not usually have to look much farther to see poor construction elsewhere because if folks don't care about the electrical, they don't care much about anything else either.

3. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Apr 26, 2009 04:30pm | #17

   so give me your opinon on whats a good box.

   seems to me most boxes seem good when new then 20 years down the road the problems show up.

   just yesterday i replaced a fedral pacific box. i'm sure when this box was new it was considerd a good box back in the 50's.they are probably the most popular box around here from that time period.now they are bad news,some insurance companies won't write ins with them.

   just for disscusion i put in a semiens [?] seems good ,but we'll know in 20 years.

   i have a ge box in my house and 3 semiens sub paneled off,everything seems fine so far........................YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.

2. 
   hardluckknocks | Apr 26, 2009 02:38am | #13

   ours was put in 1998 so the doubles don't have the same 'tail' on the opposite side of the place where it snaps on and gets its juice.but they've been working for the last couple years - but i think now that i know what the scoop is i'll change them back.

6. 
   danski0224 | Apr 26, 2009 05:23pm | #18

   I have a Cutler Hammer CH12M100 panel in my house- probably 1967 ish vintage.

   The double breakers fit in mine, and there have been no problems.

   It would be nice if I could get new "guts" for the box, as there are 3 or 4 exposed mounting locations for the bus bars.

   I will be installing a few more double breakers to gain room for a small, but useful, garage feed.

   As to code issues regarding the double breakers, I don't know. I do not have everything on at the same time, so the load capacity is never approached, and I understand that is separate from code compliance issues.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 26, 2009 08:40pm | #19

   FWIW I don't know when the CTL system came into being. But I am sure that it was well after 67. I am guessing in the 90's maybe even this century.But for older panels they made tandems without the exclusion feature. It used to be common that the box stores and hardware stores only stocked those.But that might be a local bases of which type they stock. Don't know.2nd FWIW Cutler Hammer has a series of retro-fit panels. They consists of the guts and a new cover. You reuse the old box.They come in several standardized sizes and both BR and CH series.They are special order and hard to find the info on their website.And probably most distributors don't know about them either..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe