I’m wiring a room — not an electrician, this is my own structure — and I want to put four separate lights up overhead that come on and off together from one switch. But the catch is that the large room has two doors to the outside and one to another room. So I’d like to have THREE switches — one at each door to the outside and one at the door to the adjacent room — that will respond to on/off. This is the only way that we can imagine it being practical — that is, so that one never has to cross the room in the dark looking for a switch.
Does anyone know of a good place to find how exactly to wire this? three switches to four overheads?
Thanks –
N
Replies
Two separate issues. First wire the 3/4 ways to the one light.
Then from that light daisy chain to the others.
There are a number of different ways that you can wire the 3/4 ways.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switch-outlet/4-way/
But the most logical ways is to bring power to the first switch and feed the light from the first switch.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switch-outlet/4-way/4-way-power-source-at-1st-switch-and-fixture-feed-at-1st-switch.php
Or bring power to the first switch and feed the light from the last.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switch-outlet/4-way/4-way-power-source-at-1st-switch-and-fixture-feed-at-3rd-switch.php
And wiring multiple lights.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switch-outlet/wiring-multiple-fixtures.php
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
OMG .. I was SO hoping for a simple drawing or somesuch to just allow me to look-and-do. I'll keep sorting through these replies and many thanks to all .. but DAMN it would seem so simple but it doesn't look like it to me now. Of all the aspects of building, electrical is the one that tweeks me out. I think I'll set up all of the overhead boxes and switch boxes today and then come back to this and try to figure out the wiring part.
thanks again! If anyone has a kindergarten level drawing of it I'd be much obliged!
N
BillHartman's 2nd link has a picture for you, you have to scroll a bit but it's there.
View ImageTFB (Bill)
Hey!
BillHartman,
MSA1,
silvertip,
ToolFreakBlue,
and
renosteinke ...
THANKS for your time and expertise! VERY much appreciated. I have a MUCH better idea of what I'm getting into now. These explainations and pics have set me up to proceed.
Thanks again!
Aaron
Bill,
Had I seen that drawing a few years back it would've saved me tons of time.
That is the exact pic my brain finally drew after four years of trying ot figure it out on my own.
Actually I had a first edition Home Depot book that would walk my through the installs but it wasnt clear enough to make it click in my head.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Connect the other three can lights to the light in the diagram, black to black, white to white, (grounds too) from one can to the next.
TFB (Bill)
Yeah, Bill posted some wiring diagrams, but it's very important to study them CLOSELY and be sure you understand them before beginning. Often you need cable with 3-4 insulated wires (plus the bare ground) to do it properly, so observe closely what type of cable you need between boxes. It's fairly common for someone to THINK they understand it and come up a wire short.
DanH, from your sig I'd guess you've coded a bit.
Can you guess which language I coded in?
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
C
I'm thinking FORTRAN. Notice the upper case he uses. And the default for a variable GOD is real, while variables starting with I are integer (maybe even I-L).
Actually in Fortran any variables starting with i-j-k-l-m-n were integers -- IN tegers, first two leters of the word as a mnemonic.Fortran - my first REAL computer language, 1968. CDC-6400. 64K of core memory! 80 column punch cards. Oh yeah!
Fortran - my first REAL computer language, 1968. CDC-6400. 64K of core memory! 80 column punch cards. Oh yeah!
No chit! I was using Fortran 2-D on punchcards for an IBM 360 in 1968. Lots of fun.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Me too...I remember standing in long lines waiting with my pack of punch cards for my turn. Seems they were pink, green..something like that.
And this was before the days of electronic calculators. Am I really that old??
Fortran III on an IBM 1800 in 1968. And then on a DDP 116. And then on a Sigma 7. Also, on the IBM 7090 and then CDC 6600 at WPAFB. Assembler on the DDP 116 and HP 2000 and on a PDP 116. BASIC on the HP 2000. It gets a little fuzzy after that.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
DanH, Sigma 7? No kidding! I used one of those in the computer lab at Lane Community College in Eugene OR 1981. We were on CRT by then, but still doing 80 column punch cards on the screen, as it were. I was doing RPG II. We all laughed at RPG II and it was all fun and games until I got my first computer job doing RPG II programs on a Univac BC/7.I decided to get into computers back in 1980 when I had been doing construction and the economy had gone to hell -- the Carter years. Lots of people today who talk about recession don't recall or weren't alive during the Stag-flation years of the early '80s.Been doing computers ever since but haven't hung up the toolbelt. Never hurts to have something to fall back on, one way or the other.
I did my first RPG (III) about 6 months ago, on an IBM I Series. It's a miserable language, and you have to code with the (virtual) reference manual in your lap, but you get a lot done with a few lines of code.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
on punchcards for an IBM 360 in 1968
In 1984, I was still using punch cards to properly run the USN building efficieincy modeling program (as trying to sort columnar data on a monochrome dumb terminal was for the birds).
My grad school prof was a tad confused when I was the only person to document multiple scenarios for that class. Having 2-3 boxes of data cards to run made adjusting the modeling so much easier to do--even if it confused the undergrads to see someone actually using a punchcard machine in the hall outside the main coputer lab.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>>I was using Fortran 2-D on punchcards for an IBM 360 in 1968.Geez, the 360 had got things really sophisticated, what with that 24-bit addresses and the 16 megabyte range if offered. OK, the OP.system typically limited you to maybe a 2 meg partition, and maybe the particular computer had only 256K of memory anyway, but that was huge! Who could imagine writing a program to fill that!My first use was on an IBM 1620, mod II, in l966. It had 60K decimal digits (equivalent to 30K bytes) of memory, punched cards in and out, no hard drive, no printer. I used PDQ Fortran, which used "excess-50" notation for floating point calculations, for its speed, because the computer had to do floating point ops in software (floating point hardware came later to the 1620, and few ever had it, as the 360 came soon afterward.Now watch, someone will top that with experience on a drum-based 650.Edit: "newbuilder," I apologize for the thread hijack.
Edited 1/9/2009 11:05 am ET by DickRussell
"My first use was on an IBM 1620, mod II, in l966."That sound like a "modern" one.I started on the 1620 CADET. Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try. Probably around 62 or 63.When we first started the there was only the card reader/punch and typewriter that would print out terminal messages. Never used for I/O.Started with stack of card. The first handfull was a loader. And that loaded the next batch of cards which was the fortran complier. Then your source decks.I am not sure about this, but I think that it then puched out a deck of cards which was the complied code. And then you ran that back through with a deck of cards for with the all of the math subroutines.For output it generated a deck of cards.We then ran that through a standalone printer that was part of a patch card system that would do basic accounting.Later, that might have been the mod II, we got a hard disk that had complier and other stuff on it..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I think it was a CADET they had where I went to school, but thankfully the 1800 had been rolled in a few months before I started.Always got a kick out of the IBM service guys in there once a month or so, running tests and cleaning the printer. Even back them (1967) they had "bricks" -- early 2-way pagers.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
"Always got a kick out of the IBM service guys in there once a month or so, running tests and cleaning the printer. Even back them (1967) they had "bricks" -- early 2-way pagers."in 67 most CEs didn't even have pagers. We got Motorola pagers in 68-69. We didn't get the PT "brick" until 1986 although the prototype 2 way pager was around in 1980, no keyboard, no display, just an acknowledge button. The PT brick that we got in 85-86 was basically a 3 pound Blackberry.I had a two 1620s and four 1401s in 67 along with a bunch of 407s, 101s and keypunches scattered around the county. PMs were usually once a week on a heavily used machine like a 1401 and up to once a month on the 1620 depending on usage and what I/O they had. 1620s could have 2 1311 disk drives on them (2 meg on a 14" 10 platter removable pack). Mine both did. The normal output was cards from the 1622 reader/punch and you printed them out on the 407. You could get an adapter for a 1443 printer but nobody I knew had one. A lot of time they just printed out the answer on the console typewriter if it wasn't a long report.
Edited 1/10/2009 11:02 am ET by gfretwell
I was using Fortran 2-D on punchcards for an IBM 360 in 1968. Lots of fun.====
Hmmph. Young whippersnappers ;-)I thought at first he might mean Cobol, given his prior statements about his age. However, like most languages, Cobol is explicitly typed, so his statement would not apply. The only language I can think of that is not explicitly typed is BASIC, so BASIC is the only language that seems to fit his statement and coincides with what he has previously stated about his computer expertise.C doesn't fit, because all variable types must be declared. Same with Pascal, C++, C#, APL, PL/I, PLC, Fortran and Ada. Forth and LISP don't really have the concept of type in that sense, nor does Assembler. Those are all the languages I have programmed with in the last 12 months. Not really a Java programmer, but the claim is that it is strongly typed as well.Edit: Just finished reading through the thread, saw DanH's response. However, though he says Fortran, recall that in Fortran type must be explicitly declared - integers are declared "INTEGER" and real numbers are declared "REAL". So it still appears that BASIC is the only language that fits his statement that undeclared variables are real by default.
Edited 1/10/2009 9:33 pm ET by woodturner9
You haven't read carefully. In FORTRAN, undeclared variables starting with I through N are implicitly integers.
IIRC the first Fortran I learned on you did not have any options. I think that was Fortran II.Later Fortran IV where you could declare variable and do a lot, lot more.But those brain cells have died long ago..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
According to this it might have been Fortran 66 which allowed declaring variables.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran#FORTRAN_66.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You haven't read carefully. In FORTRAN, undeclared variables starting with I through N are implicitly integers.
====What version of Fortran would that be where there are any implicit declarations? Not the case in WatIV, WatV, or any others I have used more recently. You can declare them as implicit integers, e.g. "implicit integer (a - z)", but they still have to be declared, so they are not truly implicit and thus don't fit the statement, IMHO.
Edited 1/13/2009 6:03 am ET by woodturner9
Certainly by 77 they were. I thought IV also. Which is not to say some compilers may have left out that feature.
That's right, I to N (INteger). It's coming back to me now.
How could you ever forget something so important??
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
I'm getting, ummmm something? What is it when birthdays pile up? Geez another one in a week?Plus I was a fan of declaring all variables.
As long as you chain all the switch boxes in a line, 3 wire with ground is all you need. The only time you get into 4 wires is when you want to go down and back from a 4 way.
Sometimes people want to run the travelers through the light boxes. I think it can even get to five wires in that case. (I always have to draw it out -- if I try to just noodle it it makes my head hurt.)
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Yes, lots people want to wire through the boxes, but it is big mistake.First all 4 wire cable is not readily available at the home horror stores.Fills o f the boxes. And if these are can lights I doubt that there are any that can have that many wires.And Last, but NOT LEAST, it is confusing as hell..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Ok, when you have two switches controlling a light or lights you use three-way switches. The # of lights doesn't matter; just run them in series. For three switches or more google four way switch. Diagrams are much easier to follow the connections than any verbal explanation, especially if you do't know how to do a three-way.
http://www.google.com/search?q=four+way+switch&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS272US273
Habilis wrote: "The # of lights doesn't matter; just run them in series. " I think that you mean parallel and not series.
The black and decker wiring books have good diagrams. One way to do it is to use one four way switch and two three ways.
I dont know if my 2 cents will help or not, but the way I finally "saw" in my head how to wire a three way was when I finally realized this:
Picture a standard light switch and how its wired. Now look at your two three way switches. The black screw on the three way switch represents the two screws on the standard switch.
What I mean by that is one black screw should have the "line" on it. The other one should have the "load".
The other screws are just alternating routes for the electricity to go through.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Here is a simple drawing. Just save it to your computer rotate and print.
Edited 1/9/2009 10:45 am ET by silvertip
Well, I can't 'draw' you a picture, but I can describe it pretty well. While there are other specific way, I thing the way I'll describe will be easiest ... in that you'll have more room in the boxes, and it's harder to screw up.
Your wiring sequence is: Power in -> 3 way switch -> 4 way switch -> 3 way switch -> first light -> remaining lights.
You start with an ordinary cable - that is, a black, white, and ground wire. Until you get to the lights, you will simply connect the white wires together; that is, they'll just 'pass through' the switch boxes.
The black wire connects to the black (common) screw on the three way switch. Now comes the tricky part.
Between the switches, you run a different cable: one with four wires: black, red, white, and green. These balck and red wires will be your "travellers," passing from switch to switch. They connect to the common screws on the 3-way switches, and each cable attaches to one side of the 4-way switch.
On the 4-way switch, if in doubt, use your meter. Each cable should attach to a pair of screws that never, no matter the switch position, be connected to each other.
At the last 3-way switch, you return to using the 'usual' cable, and you attach it's balck wire to the black (common) screw.
It may help for you to set this up on a workbench first, to get it straight in your mind.
Can I get an amen for an ancient programmer thread? Then we can hijack it and talk about three ways (but only if we confine it to wire related issues) (;-).
Genie offered me three wishes and I asked for two actresses and enough V-pills to pull it off (so to speak).For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
You need to be more specific -- You'll end up with Roseanne Barr and Oprah Winfrey.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Agree, I just did not want to incriminate myself too much. I had a bunch in mind just trying to make final decision. Would have to be careful, could end up with Miss Piggy and Lassie if not designated.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
"Of all the aspects of building, electrical is the one that tweeks me out. "
You shouldn't let it. All you need in wiring is some good, clear diagrams and you need to label each wire with a sharpie & masking tape. Work methodically and you'll be fine.
Bill gave you some good diagrams and he's absolutely right about not running your 3 & 4 wire through the boxes. Even though it's done, it can get very confusing if you're not used to it. Run it switch to switch.
Three & four ways seem confusing at first but after a while of doing them, they're quite easy.
Just remember that the common screw on your three way switches is always the line and the load. (incoming & out going).
Thanks, Jer, ... I'll remember that. I'm diagramming it tonight. Thanks for the words of support!
n
Hey by the way ... an EXCELLENT utube video explaining exactly HOW TO WIRE A FOUR WAY SWITCH right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wknz-Beb268
:]
n
Hey, that was good!
He said at the end of his 3 way switch basically the same thing I told you to remember. The black screw on a 3 way is called the common, that always gets connected to either the incoming hot to the first switch, or the out going hot to the fixture. The other two on the 3 wire between switches are called the traveler wires, and they are connected to the other brass screws interchangeably. On a 4 way, always have the 4 way switch(s) between the two three way switches at either end of the switch run, and keep your colored screws (black, brass) separated to the wires of each cable.Once you memorize that (easy), you're gold for good. It only took me 18 years!....and that's good for me.Once you start to think conceptually about electricity and understand how it flows and works, it's actually quite fun. I don't have that kind of mind like Bill or Riversong does, (brains) but I learned to work at it.Have fun.
yeah . . . I'm amazed at how clear and how good that 'askthebuilder' is. He's got a TON of quick little vids on utube of all sorts of essential building processes. All really quite good.
thanks again -
Aaron