Question…..
I have done a lot of bath tile in my time and have always worked with “mastic”. But I am still hearing the debate that thinset mortar is the best.
I would like some tile recommendations if you please…. I will be using 6×6 tile on the walls of the tub, I already have the cement board in place. I always liked working with the mastic becasue it is easier to “backbutter” the tile this allows me to keep mess out of the seams for when I grout later on. I never got any callbacks on tile falling off the wall when I did it this way.
What is some of your opinions on this. Thanks.
Replies
I'd keep doing what you have been successful with.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
even if mastic is a terrible choice for a wet location?
me ... I'd stop pushing my luck and start mixing some thinset.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yes. I think his track record proves something. It aint that wet back there! If it is, where is the water going? Do we all leave the bottom open now to drain all that water out? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have wondered about that myself.
Before thinset we had a choice of mastic or a full blown mud job. Most of the remodelers in this area would do a mastic job over green board because a mud job was over budget for many small remodels. I was one of them.
Like the op, I have never had a call back on any of those remodels. Going back to 1976, that is a pretty good record. Might be just dumb luck, but I think the real big slam against mastic was caused by poor workmanship to start with.
Cement board and thin set have reduced the error factor a lot. It is all I will use now, simply because it is better all around than mastic.
My objective has always been to give the customer the best value for thier dollar. That is the best reason for switching IMO. The old "it's always worked in the past" or "it's the way Ive always done it" just doesn't justify not switching to a better and more durable product.
You are one of the guys that have taught me that through this forum,Jim.
Like the op, I have never had a call back on any of those remodels
sure U have. They just called me instead.
I've torn out tons of mastic'd baths.
shouldn't say "torn out" though .... more like wave my hand and watch the tiles fall.
I've also torn out thinset jobs ... and full mud jobs.
those demo's are actually like work.
I've said it before ... will say it again.
I ain't here to argue ... could care less what Blue puts behind his tile.
but ... when someone asks ... usually they're looking for the best answer.
and thinset is way gooder than mastic.
even says so on a tub of mastic.
if ya don't believe me ... believe them!
I ain't in the business of selling thinset but they're in the business of selling mastic.
so if they're saying their product ain't such a grand idea ...
I'm thinking I'd take the hint.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I switched about 16 years ago.
I did maybe 15 to 20 mastic jobs in the 15 years before that.
Maybe some did fall apart, but I never got a call back to fix any of them. I did do a room addition on one of those early jobs about 8 years later. the tub surround was still solid at that time.
I have also demo'd a bunch of mastic and mud jobs. I've seen failures occure in both. Mostly poor workmanship up front and no HO care for years.
I want to know what fails. Does the mastic fail or the bond to the substrate fail? Does the substrate fail? If the water is getting back there, where does it exit? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, the failures I have seen were on tub surrounds over green board, or in one, over 1/2" dw. Failures started at corners, tub edges, and around faucet/diverter valve assemblies. I seldom saw a tile pop off in the field, unless the grout was pin holed or falling out.
The primary areas were caused by a several different reason. Tile set to tight to a tub edge and grouted instead of caulked at that joint. Corners set to tight or even overlapped and grouted. Fill/diverter valves and handles with nothing but the trim hiding the cut tile. And finally in tub/shower combos with windows there was the inevitable window to tile joint and the improperly sloped sill.
In short, anywhere water could get behind or through the tile, there was going to be mush and mold forming in the greenboard behind it.
The reason I don't think I had any failures with mastic jobs was I paid particular attention to all the areas I had seen failures, and I never used water based (latex) mastic. That stuff didn't seem to have the grab that the solvent based mastic had. I could glue and set an 82 sf surround in 1/2 a day with solvent based mastic. Latex mastic meant 8 hrs. for the same job if I had used it, and I still had to worry about sag on the parts I did at the end of the day. I just never liked the water based stuff.
Mooney and some of the others have likely seen more of it than I have.
I just dabbled around with residential remodeling as a part time business while I made my living as a commercial carpenter. When cement board and thinset came along I gladly switched. My tile supplier convinced me it was a better and less risky product line that everyone was going too.
Jeff , you are in your zone with that post you made.
They all can fail. Depends on the operator mebbe more than the product except in very wet areas. Even then I can prepare walls above water line as Bill points out . I can do all three but everyone doesnt do it right . Ive used an epoxy paint years ago on green board to let Dad use mastic in showers . Oil base mastic should be used . If thats all done its there . By the time you go to that trouble you might as well have used thinset if you go to the trouble of testing the mix often enough. Thats where thin set fails . Thinset is better only if the operator does what he needs to do.
Most all failures are operator failures. But again , if everything was done right in every case , thinset is better because if done right , its stronger. Over cement board , its there to stay. The tile site says its true also.
Tim
I don't know about this. but I have heard that the difference is that is used to be a solvent based mastic. And you where suppose to put on a skim coat and let it cure. That formed a water resistant barrier. Then the tile was set on top of that with mastic..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Check out this thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63686.1
It includes one of my own posts:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63686.19
where I explain why I am now a convert to thinset and won't use mastic in shower areas any more.
Thanks a bunch for the excellent thread. I had a feeling I would be convinced to go with the mortar. I just hate mixing the thinset and it has to be the right consistency to adhere to the wall once its troweled on.
Thanks
No doubt mastic is convenient, I use from time to time in non wet areas. In a tub surround or shower it's thinset. Mixing thinset shouldn't be a big deal, start with small batches, let it slake for 10 min and remix/adjust.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I just hate mixing the thinset and it has to be the right consistency to adhere to the wall once its troweled on.
Check with your tile supplier about types of thinset which are specially formulated to give maximum adhesion for wall and ceiling applications. It's more expensive stuff but it really does the job.
BTW, it's not hard to get the right consistency. I use a small plastic mixing box and a garden hoe. That way it's very easy to see how much water is needed. When it's ready to apply, I use a flat shovel to put it in a 5 gal bucket to transport it to the work area.
In the direct water areas, always use thinset, even though they say on the mastic bucket you can use it...don't. I've seen it fail.
In all other areas for wall, definitely use mastic. It's much easier.
I'm on the thinset band wagon. We do quite a few steam showers and heated bath floors. Especially in the steam shower area mastic becomes plastic from the heat and we have had several floor cracks in the past and an occasional loose high wall tile. Thinset cured the problem. In non high heated areas mastic works fine, but why have potential failure damage and call backs to contend with?
You bring up an excellent point.
And I have started that wall already, and have been using the thinset.... I was easily convinced by all the great pointers everyone on here offered.
Much appreciated to you...... and everyone who wrote and chimed in.
Thanks
I used to always use mastic, too, in fact, I just re-did a shower I had done 20 years ago with mastic over green sheetrock. It was perfect underneath, with the exception of a little minor sponginess around the valve hole. Two reasons for this, I think- caulk has been well maintained, and this tile was siliconed between all the joints instead of grout. In spite of this, I've listened to the experts over at JohnBridge.com and switched to backer board/thinset. MUCH BETTER. Thinset, apart from the hassle of having to mix it, actually is cleaner to work with for me- less gooey, just wipe excess with a wet sponge.
Bill