Just a quick update.
I posted about this job elsewhere .. thought this would be a good place to post the resolution.
Quick recap. Laid a tile floor at the begining of this year. Got a call about 3 months ago … hairline cracks were showing in 2 places. I scheduled to see it in 2 weeks from that time … by then … 4 cracks … some now extending into the tiles themselves.
I measured and was convinced that the hardibacker I used over the vinyl was the problem. At the time the flyer said “ok for over vinyl” … I later saw their new one… “OK for vinyl… except for cushion backed”.
new flyer had the info printed real big on the front … figured they found out about the problem right before I did!
I went over last week to tear out … started at cracks … only problem … no backer seams as I had expected.
Went downstars and popped the drop ceiling …. read the ply stamp …. 19/32!
The original builders used only 5/8th …. I “assumed” 3/4! Dammit!
I did look the first time … and measured the exposed ply at the basement door …. realised what I measured was the 19/32 with the 1/4 luan they put for the vinyl!
Musta had that 3/4 measurement in my head when I glanced and mis-read the 19/32.
So I now take a closer look … measure the joist spacing …. about half 16oc …. some at 17 and 17.5 oc … and right at the ends of the island in the kitchen above …. 18oc.
I go up and discuss with the HO’s.
Confess to laying tile over substandard framing in the first place.
Say no matter what … it’s all gotta come up …. the backer is still over cushion back … let’s not forget that problem……plus it’s cracked.. So that cost is on me.
And …. if they want tile again …. only was I’ll warrenty it is overlay the whole floor with 1/2 ply. But that raises the floor … which raises sereval other issues.
Second option is 3/4 glued and screwed between joists below … but due to the construction .. I can only get to half the floor … right where the heavy island is …. I’d do it in my house … but I can’t guarantee it in theirs.
They both look into the hall and ask … what about matching the hardwood?
It’s Bruce prefinished …. full 3/4 …. oak.
house is only 3 or 4 yrs old … I say I can get it close … probably!
Can lay the floor …. either that or give them back a nice vinyl ….
they want hardwood … so we compromise.
I ask …. and they accept …. I demo … prepare and install the hardwood….
If they pay for the hardwood materials. Husband says his friend just got the deal of a lifetime at Lowes … took HD’s 10% off price in and they matched and beat by 10% …. spent about a week shopping around though …
and we had scheduled the “reinstall” over a long weekd they’d be outta town with the kids … so time was of the essence. Plan was for me to buy and give them the reciept for reimbursement.
I shopped quick …. all I could get was the HD 10% off … coupon weekend … so I decided to stop wasting time and just get it done. He called that nite .. asked about the price … said HD’d give 10% off … and I’d deduct another 10% so he’d get the same price his buddy got …. the one he said he’d be thrilled to pay for a new hardwood floor.
In the end … I paid out about $800 …not even thinking about my lost pay …. instead of somewhere around $1500-$1600 ….
And they bought a hardwood floor they’re both still getting used to ….. at first .. he wanted tile … she said OK .. but really started to love the tile floor …. so now it’s back to getting used to a new floor….
Personally … I really liked the tile … and didn;t think the oak would match the cherry cab’s … but the wood really softened up the room and brought out some nice highlights in the cabs ….
Like a great lawyer once told me …. he also arbitrated …. a successful arbitration is when both sides feel they lost!
We both lost money …. but I think we’re both happy with the outcome.
At one point .. I had 3 other guys there (2 demo laborers and one carpenter helping with the hardwood install) … everyone was making money except for me!
On the plus side .. I already had a dumpster across town to throw the old tile …
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery…..While U Waite
Replies
pics ...
old and new
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
this part should probably be in const tech or the pics section ...
but notice the clever "re-use" of the custom carpet to tile/wood threshold!
That's one fancy carpenter guy doing that kinda stuff, ya know!
It's finish screwed and rabbited over the gold metal carpet strip ... removable ... in case they ever have to pull the carpet ... now that one side is "grooved" ... more of a tilt operation as opposed to remove ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Bummer Jeff, but the candor with which you share the periodic headaches is refreshing. We've all been there, we just don't like admitting it.
All in all, I've taken a few years to try and convince myself that the $600 my last good oops cost me was cheap education.
Glad you and the HO parted amicably. You'll hopefully get some future dividends off that.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
They've been good customers in the past and should remain that way. They weren't even gonna call in the first place ... didn't want to "complain about some minor cracks!" I yelled at her for telling me that ... said as rule ..... I like my stuff to look pretty much like I left it ....and I didn't leave any "minor cracks"!
I had a good chance to bs with the husband the last day as my helper was cleaning up .... told him I was luck to have an understanding customer ....
I'll admit a mistake here ... I'm learning and grwoing the hard way just like everyone else .... each time I "confess" I just think about that honest new guy that may pick up a minor tip or two.
Dad always said ... a good carpenter makes mistakes ... a great one knows how to hide or fix them!
This one couldn't be hidden .... had to be fixed. No shame in that. Figured I told the story .... might as well finish up with the ending. Just glad it ended well.
I'm betting it'll work to a few more referals when their friends see the new floor and wonder why something looks different.
And his great grandma already commented/admitted ... she never really "like" the tile they picked out anyways!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Thanks for sharing the story, Jeff. I feel for you. I HATE doing work over, ESPECIALLY when it's out of my pocket. That can be totally demoralizing.
I haven't looked at the pix yet. I assume you're proud of the finished work. At least you have that.
Handled with class, Jeff. Sorry about the loss, but take consolation in the education gained. I'm with the others, I can't stand to do a job twice, and hate it even more when it's because I screwed up the first time. But I know what you mean about misreading the floor thickness; I've done it myself.
at first ... I was just gonna do the whole tear out and replacement myself...
I laid the first floor all by my lonesome no problem ....
then I thought about how much I just hate tearing out my own work.....
decided it better mental health to hire it out.
Spent a few bucks and the spent the rest of tear out day with the wife and kid.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
a 5/8" subfloor doesn't sound like it was done to code...hmmmm.and the floor joist spacing either.....but none the less, I know you know what you did wrong.
Probably would have happened even if it was 3/4" 16 OC for some reason.
Everyyyyyy time I do a tile floor somewhere in the back of my mind I think the right job is a mud job...not even CBU's.
Safest thing is to over build......sorry bro....I hate when stuff like that happens but shid happens in this biz...you treated it super fine and proffesional!
Things could be worse......
I had some dope working for me years ago....he did lots of tile work so I let him loose on a bathroom....he installed all the tiles upside down..OMGGGGG.
Had someone else put all undercourse up first before the shakes on a garage wall ......they asked me wasn't it great how fast they did that...I sat with my head in my hands almost crying/laughing.
Be redone
andy
PS..hey, ya have yer health, right?My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Kuddos to you Jeff for being accountable and doing the right thing. My foundation/framing guys weren't always so honorable; there was suppose to be 4 X material for mudsills it turns out, they put in 2 X material. One Saturday the foundation guy and his crew are out drilling the mudsill and gradebeam. Turns out they are putting in more hardware to compensate for the mudsill slip up. I had a 50 plus person party on the property that day and was wondering why they were out working that day and would they be finished at a reasonable time as I would have people arriving around 2 pm. They were cordial and everything, but I never did find out why they were doing this "extra" hardware work till the lead framer told me matter-of-fact a few months later.
On my same job, the young project manager orders a wrong beam for the header opening of the garage; he orders for garage opening when he was suppose to order a beam running the whole length of the garage front. The foundation guy (one of the principles of the company) tells the lead framer to just put in the shorter beam cuz Wiley won't notice and neither will the City. The lead framer says, well, if anyone does notice (my engineer would have noticed as I had him out to check the job before framing inspection), then it will be a hell of a lot more expensive to replace the beam than to just replace the cost of it now (and probably get the lumber yard to return the other one). Really glad I had the leader framer I had; we had some problems together, but nothing we couldn't ever work out--I paid him extra at the end of the project and his crew too, but nothing to the company itself--just a "thanks."
On another note; Jeff, any reason to put down 1/2" hardiback board before tiling than the more standard 1/4" floor stuff? I realize that 1/2" isn't going to add anything more structurally, but was wondering if it might be better anyway to put down the extra thicker (which I believe is more for walls) hardiback board--maybe "softening" any inconsistencies in the floor itself. The subfloor got a fair amount of rain on it last year. I'm still kinda vascilating back and forth about whether to put down hardwood flooring (which I won't install) in the kitchen and kitchen nook or tiling which I can install myself. I will have hardwood in other parts of the house, and abutting the kitchen. I'm kinda leaning towards tile in the kitchen areas.
Jeff,
Great job on the resolution. The great thing about those pictures is you can use them in 2 different sales presentations. "Here is a picture of a job we did taking up hardwood and installing tile." And vise a versa. DanT
the only real difference between the 1/4 and the 1/2 ...
is the extra 1/4 thickness!
Common sense tells me it'd add a slight bit of strenght ... but all those in the know .... say it's just for padding up the floor level to match an existing floor.
Now bumping up the sub floor thickness itself a bit .. if not already installed .. can make for a dramatic increase in subfloor performance.
I've found that as far as stiffening by over laying ... about the only way you'll see a benefit is by adding a minimum 1/2 ply over the existing.
If you could add 1/2 ply (instead of 1/2 backer )...... then use either ditra or the new mapie lath ... both add a minimum to the total thickness ... you'd be good .... as long as the first layer of sub ply is 3/4.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistery in Carpentry
Jeff,
Wouldn't the 3/8" thickness of the vinyl and lauan, plus the 1/2" cbu plus thinset add up to almost the same as 1/2" plywood and 1/4" cbu plus thinset?
And, by the way, nice job on resolving a problem."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
the only real difference between the 1/4 and the 1/2 ...
Horse bunk, the 1/4 in is a lot more flimsy and "bendy" then the 1/2, I know you're not advocating useing 1/4 in on walls, (I hope lol) but someone may read it that way.
CAG, what about walls! That was going to be my next question. I'm planning to tile most of the walls in the masterbath, the craftsman type white, what 3" X 5" (?), subway tile, something like that? Anyway, I've got 5/8" rock throughout. In the non-water areas, could I just tile on the sheetrock, or do I also need to put hardiback on the walls too? My problem thinking about this is how to I butt against my molding around the window which is 1 x 4 advantage pine material? I mean throw up 1/4 hardiback and then the tile and I'm damn near protruding out from the molding.
More important than the non-wet areas...how do you plan to tile the shower? Hopefully with cement board (not hardie type) and a membrane.
Do it right, or do it twice.
If the walls you are tiling are not going to get wet, (as in not the shower surround) you can tile to the drywall with a latex modified thinset.
Wiley, for your window: extend the jamb flush to the tile, case the window, backfill the casing above the tile.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
CAG, I'll plan on going that route then, thanks.
Elcid, I don't know that I will be tiling my shower. Most of my experience is with floors and counter tops. I thought tiling the rest of the bathroom walls (non-wet) would be a good start, and leave the shower to a pro (probably "mud" the walls). I am, however, considering tiling the guestbath tub walls and would probably just nail/screw up wonder or hardiback board.
Calvin, it's funny you bring up the window casing; I've been casing and trimming all the windows at the moment. They are Milgard vinyls, and I was just thinking the other day about possibly ripping out my casings that I've already installed in that bathroom to extend like you suggest! I think I follow what you are writing; the trim actually is on top of the finish tile? And the "backfill" another piece of trim the thickness of the tile? The only thing is, I would probably now have to rip out the stool I already put in and extend that too. No biggie, but...
...I'm just wondering, with CAG's acknowledgement of being able to just tile on the sheetrock for the wall tile (I mean it's basically just asthetics), the 1/4," 3/8" thickness of the tile butted up against my window trim (side and bottom) would leave a 3/8" reveal where the tile meets the trim. That should be cool shouldn't it?
I don't think it would bury the trim too much, you be the judge. Does it get painted? You could caulk (matching) the line at the casing. You might want to try this in a future job. Instead of running up to it and then dealing with the cracked grout as the seasons change (around the casing/apron and sill). Take the casing and apron and remove the tile thickness from the back of the casing (at the tile) so the tile will slip behind it just enough to cover, you'll still nail the casing to the wall framing. Same with the apron. The sill, you notch out the horn so the tile slips behind that too. Tile guy (fast eddie) always complimented my thoughtfulness when he came for a splash and the trims all finish painted/stained and he can just slip his tile behind. Takes a little planning, but doesn't everything.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Jeff I wouldn't be at all surprised if that $800 out-of-pocket expense and your lost pay for the time you put in turns into many thousands of dollars of work in the years to come from both that client and the people that they recommend you to.
Brilliant move. That's one of the best Customer Service stories I've ever seen in these forums.
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Man Jeff, you really went out of your way to resolve a flooring issue caused by a builder that took no pride in his workmanship.
Not only does the floor bounce, it flexes under your feet.
That really stinks............
The new floor really looks warmer.......
I did a re-vinyl over old on a kitchen remodel years ago. I nailed 1/4" ply over the old vinyl 8" square with ring shank nails.
Vinyl installer installed the vinyl the customer picked out.
Next day there are bubbles in the vinyl.
Vinyl guy tells me that the plywood should be nailed at 6" square.
It would have been nice to tell me that before he laid the vinyl. I had to rip up all the flooring and start over
That little lesson cost me a few bucks.......
I feel your pain..........
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob