Tiling a shower floor overtop concrete
Hi Y’all.
Am doing a basement remodel; including installation of a new bathroom and shower. There previously was no basement bathroom, and consequently, no floor drains to hook up to. I had to dig out the basement floor and install a sewage sump pump system.
All initial floor work is completed,drain system has been tested and works fine. Am installing a 34″X60 ” shower. This is not a prefabbed unit. Floor to be tiled, and walls to be covered with shower surround ( not tile as owner doesn’t want it).
Anyway, existing floor needs to be sloped to drain properly. Was planning on coating floor with thinset and then install a 2-3 inch mud bed; sloped accordingly.
Normally on a “mud” job, after the initial sloped floor is put down, a PVC or CPE shower pan is then installed overtop, followed by another mud layer, and then the final tiling. My question is this….since my existing floor is already concrete, do I need to worry about installing a vinyl shower pan? Can’t I just increase the bed thickness a little on my initial sloping and then tile over it?
Don’t know enough about tiling. Any info is greatly appreciated. I just assume you put down a vinyl shower pan when working overtop a wood subfloor…but this is not the case.
Please help.
Thanks.
Davo
Replies
>My question is this....since my existing floor is already concrete, do I need to worry about installing a vinyl shower pan? Can't I just increase the bed thickness a little on my initial sloping and then tile over it?
NO, a thousand times NO!
I've been exploring alternatives to the traditional setup, but what's specifically clear from that is that no matter what, you cannot count on concrete as your waterproofing. Look into Schlüter's Kerdi and Kerdi-Drain as one thing that might help.
nope .. can't skip it.
See .... Cloud finally believe's me that concrete ain't waterproof!
You still need to direct all that water into the drain ...
otherwise ... it'll start ... slowly but surely ... start leaching all over the place ...
and depending how old the original floor is and what the first mix was ... might even seperate your new slad from the original.
Just thrown in the pvc and 2 part clamping drain assembly.
or up grade to the kerdi stuff ...
I have no problems with the pan liner ... so I haven't had cause to try the kerdi paint on stuff yet.
what's the provisions for the wall/floor junction?
off the top of my head ... I'd run the membrane way high .. like a foot or so ... with the wall sub-material being held up pretty high too .... then float my second floor pour up there to cover it all .... making for a 1ft deep swimming pool ...
then run the shower walls down to where they should be ...
I'd also form it nice so the pan is exposed or tiled for at least the bottom 4 inches ...
and the bottom of the walls sit flush ... with a mini ledge that was formed in to accept it. The goal would be to have the shower wall and the tile "floor extension" flush ... or at most .. the wall have a very small overhang ... with that junction to be grout caulked.
Mixing materials and site built floors/pans combined with factory walls makes me nervous .. if the factory hasn't come up with a decent waterproof junction ... I go the extra step.
which is keeping the pooling and splashing water as far from that junction as possible.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Always believed it wasn't waterproof. Just looking for a compatible spray material that WAS!
>so I haven't had cause to try the kerdi paint on stuff yet.
Kerdi's a membrane with fleece that you thinset to the wall/floor.
my mistake .. I was confusing it with something else ...
isn't there an adhesive or someting that's used when ya gotta "glue" it to the drain .. or some special inside/outside corner and flashing that's preformed and glued up to work as a whole?
I gotta re-read their website ... I might be confusing 2 seperate products here ...
anyways ...
just used a pan liner!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
They have corner pieces and the drain with fleece, but it's all membrane that's thinsetted.
just regular thinset huh?
I gotta go back and read that site for real ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
On the Fine Homebuilding main page there is an article which you can print out to learn the basics of shower pan installation. 1. Read it, 2. Print it out, 3. Read it and then 4. Repeat step 4 three more times. I find that the best way to test your understanding of any part of the construction process is: Once you feel comfortable with the concept and process - draw/ diagram it. Then label the components. It doesn't have to be pretty. Compare the components in your drawing with the drawings provided by the pros. Do it until you get it right - a day after last studying it.
You can do a lot of damage if you take shortcuts or just plain install a shower pan incorrectly - even in a basement situation.
BTW - You don't need to plan "on coating floor with thinset and then install a 2-3 inch mud bed." Thinset is not needed here.
One last point. http://www.johnbridge.com has excellent articles and photos of how to install a shower pan properly and how to tile properly. It is a great resource. There as well as here, are great places to ask tiling questions.
F.
While on this subject....
We have two floor drains in our basement.
One in particular would be perfect for fitting in a shower stall.
Is this feasible ?
The drains work fine and I tested them with a garden hose.
No backing up.
Just curious if this is not unheard of.
I would install a proper shower pan and drain fittings.
Thanks !
Edited 2/23/2004 6:26:05 PM ET by Ahneedhelp
"We have two floor drains in our basement.
One in particular would be perfect for fitting in a shower stall.
Is this feasible ? "
Sure it is very easy.
Step 1. Rent a demolition hammer.
Step 2. Find some young kids with more brawn then brains.
Step 3. Set back and watch then open up the floor.
Step 4. Replace floor drain with drain applicable to your shower base.
That is the EASY way of doing it.
I am in the process of doing exaclty that right now.
I am not sure what this area was setup for. It had a sloping area to a floor drain and then concrete block walls where build around it. The HO calls it a campground shower. There was a wall attached basin and a toliet. The toliet flange has been cut off, but the male part was still inside the hub and the hub stuck up about 1" above the floor. They had put some ground around the base to elevate the stool, but the bolts where attached to anything. There where signs of old bolts for a 4 point hold down.
I tried to salvage what I could. My main "worry" was not the work with busting up the concrete, but working with the cast iron.
But I found absolutely no way to attach any kind of a shower base to the existing floor drain.
And after I dug up the old one I found out that the floor drain has holes around the edge. I am guessing that that was weep holes to drain out any water from under the slab.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Demolition is not what I had in mind, more like a drain fitting onto the existing floor drain opening that works similarly to a toilet flange adapter that uses PVC/expanding rubber ring.
There is a trap for the drain already, but looks like you're already doing something similar to what I am looking at.
Ours is just a plain floor drain with a sloped surround.
As for breaking up the concrete, I'm quite familiar with the routine so that wouldn't be much trouble.
Our boys are all under 7, so they have a few more years before I can abuse them for free labor :-)
"Demolition is not what I had in mind,"
I know WHAT you had in mind. That is what I had also, but AFAIK there ain't no such animal and I asked about one a couple of weeks ago.
But my case was cast iron.
The only "possibility" that I know is to remove the cover and look in it and see if there is some kind of logical female sections that piece of veritcal pipe could be glue to. That is IF your drain was plastic.
If if that would work there might be another consideration. The trap on mine has a very, very tight loop and then plug in the side with a bypass for a snake. With a shower on time and the tight loop I don't think that could be snaked.
In my case I found that I really needed to move the location.
I'm afraid mine are also cast iron under the slab.
1950s vintage ranch with all cast iron drain lines.
Thanks for sharing info on your earlier findings.
Saves me time searching for info.
More then likely I'll end up in the same predicament - relocating the drain location.
Thanks for your help.
Jeff..... Cloud.....Boris..., thanks for the advice. Frankie...., great website you turned me on too. BTW, the Sept. 2001 issue (no. 141) of FHB has a very good article on installing a shower pan and mud floor. I have read this article thru and thru several times and feel very capable of handling this...only real concern I had was the shower pan issue. In the article, the author used a shower pan, but he was installing over a wood subfloor...since I am not, just wasn't sure if I needed to include that particular step in the operation. Thanks to all you guys, it appears as if I do need to incorporate the shower pan, so I will.
Thanks for all your input.
Davo
Edited 2/24/2004 1:35:05 AM ET by Davo
What Jeff said.
Make a slurry of thinset and spread on area to be mudded; Add mud preslope; install membrane and clamp to shower drain; Add more mud; Tile.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934