Ok, we’re redoing the bathroom of our rental apartment (rent is very low, apartment is very nice; once we factor in the cost of improvements we do ourselves, rent is still very low). We’ve put in a deeper bathtub and replaced the shower and tap fixtures. We’ve used water-resistant drywall around the tub and now we’re tiling the walls, including the bath surround. Plain white glazed tiles, dark grey sanded grout. My partner says that he’s never heard of sealing grout, has never done it, and is not interested in paying $50 for an unnecessary product. I, on the other hand, get anxious about things like mold and mildew. Web research is pretty clear that floor tile grout must be sealed. And there was an interesting thread on Breaktime in 2000 http://tinyurl.com/bt437 about sealing shower surrounds that included discussion of draining shower pans, which I don’t know how to apply to a bathtub installation. So, my question: what happens if we don’t seal the grout in the bath surround? What about if we seal it in the bath surround but not the rest of the bathroom?
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Replies
Better get some Duroc cement backerboard or Hardi-panel on the walls in the tub area before continuing.
I'm sure someelse much more knowledgeable than I will comment in detail. Try performing a search on the subject here.
it would have been better to use a cement type board for backing the tile but now that you have the water resistant drywall up I would defintiely use the waterproofer for the grout. Home DEPOT sells a little bottle of the stuff for under $10 that will do the whole job twice over. It has a little nozzel with a brush on the end nd you go over ever grout line. Takes time but it works. Al after you have used the tub for several times get corner seams for cracking. Regrout and reseal if needed. Or run a thin clean line of good quality bathroom caulking for tubs up the corners and down along the edge where the tile meets the tub. these are the most problemed area for leaks."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Defiantely remove the Drywall from the shower area. Water resistant or not. It will eventually fail. Use Durock then thinset and tape your seems if you want it to last.
As far as sealing the grout. I dont see it needed if the joints are under 1/8'' and if the tile is not raw like a stone type.
Sorry, Alison, it doesn't matter what you do to the grout, your tile job will fail in 8 months to 2 years or so...depending on how much you use the shower. Water will most certainly penetrate the tile and saturate the drywall--most likely at the corners where you grouted instead of silicone caulked, but eventually at the grout joints themselves directly below the valve and on the adjacent wall. Moreover, molds and fungi will infiltrate the walls behind the tile in a year or less--w/or w/out the sealer. The mildew will forever stain your caulk and grout; always returning after you've bleached it out. It will fester and eventually grow a continuous bio-mat while the gypsum slowly dissolves, releasing the tile from their substrate.
If you've not tiled, rip out the drywall and install Hardibacker, preferably. Cement board or even Denshield will suffice. Tape and seal the corners w/ thinset, use thinset to install your tile, NOT mastic, and caulk your corners and tub transition w/ urethane or 100% silicone caulk.
Drywall is definately not recomended for showers.......bad choice, and should use some type of CBU with a vapor barrier.
That being said, MR board has been known to last as many as 30 years when installed properly (ok and in extremely bad situations 2 years) But in order to get it to last at all, you need to put a skim coat of thiset on first, and let it dry.
Then YES you need to seal it, if they are glazed tiles, then just seal the grout joints. Also these guys are right about putting expansion joints in the corners (ie sylicone bathroom caulking)
I wouldn't go with the cheapest sealant, as you are going to need protection, but for about 20 bucks you can probly get something descent, and then go ahead and seal the whole bathroom. I'de probly seal the shower twice.
SEeing that its a rental and the job is already done, you're just going to have to ride this one out, resealing every 2 years (therefore the big bottle of sealer) and then sometime down the rode you will have to redo it right with Concrete backer board.
So for heaven's sake, raise the rent on the place!! :-P
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
From what I have heard an alternative to removing the water resistant drywall is installing Schluter's KERDI material over the drywall. Here is the link to their product. http://www.schluter.com/english/products/2002/sectionh/overview-h/section-h.html
You really need to get rid of the drywall, like others have said. The sealer will not make it waterproof. Minute cracks in the grout along with the general permeability of the grout will allow water through like a sieve - and then the drywall is continuously wet and we've all seen how fast drywall degrades in water.
It needs to be concrete board over a water barrier, like plastic or tar paper. Then tile the concrete board with thinset, not mastic.
Here is a forum that will give you all the knowledge about tile you could ever want - the John Bridge forum. The guys at this forum are geniuses with about a thousand years experience.
You really need to do it right or you're going to end up doing it again in about 18 months.
http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/index.php
The sky is falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't care what others have told you. MR Drywall is not the best idea for this application.
That said, properly detailed and cared for, you will get a minimom of 10 years out of it.
Even if you use MASTIC !! Oh my God; he said mastic!!!!
Let's all run for the hills!!!!!
Or you could put two layers of hardibacker over it; one horizontally and the next vertical with a layer of thinset in between and stainless steel screws 4" OC...............and then, and then............
hey boys; read the post..........it's a RENTAL.
It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
hey boys; read the post..........it's a RENTAL.
Ah, the sound of reason and reality peals clearly...<g>
Yup, it's a rental--and she's the tenant, not the landlord. There is no point in her going to the expense and trouble of doing a tear-out on this. Unless they did the world's worst botch job on the tiling--or if they have a 3-year-old who likes to hose down the entire bathroom regularly with the hand-held shower-massage--it oughta hold for a few years at worst and maybe even quite a few years if they got lucky and were meticulous on the tiling and grouting.
Sealing the grout won't hurt either. Worth the dough considering the substrate.
I think that was her original question, LOL....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
See, I thought she was the landlady.
Whatever.
Does everything we do have to be Fine Home Building just because that's the name of the site?
Or can we sometimes do a value assesment on a repair or remodel based on it's usefullness to..............
Hey, we'd all like to drive Porsche's and drink off the top shelf; but then, sometimes we wake up!It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Yeah Dino and Eric----that was kinda the point of my post..............
i thought the others were missing the point. It is a rental and the tile is already up--so seal the heck out of it, and do it every year, and use it till it falls off!
Then do it right.
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Keep it clean and dry if you can.
Stop worrying so much about the mold et al.
It's all around us and is even healthy when it is the right type and amounts.
Bleach it if you worry.It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
I think that was meant for menken---
I didn't mention mold..............Besides, everyone needs a little penecilen every once in a while!
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Thanks, guys!Yes, I am the tenant, not the landlord. No three-year-olds. We shower about every other day (we live in Montreal - damp cold in the winter). I've lived here almost ten years now and could live here quite a while longer; the woman next door has lived in the same building almost all her life. Montreal's housing stock has a very high proportion of rentals compared to the rest of North America. Much of it is rows of triplexes, with three apartments stacked one on top of the other, all accessed by exterior staircases: the landlord typically lives on the ground floor and rents out the second and third floors. Everyone has their own front and back door, but because the only exterior walls are the front and back heating costs are kept low. In our case we have the ground floor and the landlady lives across town. She inherited the building so isn't paying mortgage and doesn't have to raise the rent the way new owners do. But sometimes I wish she'd raise it just a little and stop whining when the plumbing breaks and a flood takes out the bathroom ceiling and she needs to call a plumber. (The building is 1929, original woodwork in most of the apartment, original etched and painted glue interior glass doors, pressed linoleum on the walls, hardwood or hex tile floors. And rotten 1929 copper valves connecting 1980 PVC pipe.) (And a very nice, quiet neighbourhood close to stores and public transport and walking distance from the groovy part of town.) Anyway. We are ready to tile - drywall up, walls plastered - but no tile laid yet. The plan is to grout the tile and use silicone at the corners, just like you guys said. I don't know what kind of adhesive is planned. (I will investigate!)Interesting points about the drywall rotting patterns. My partner points out that the bathroom was last done in 1986 (according to a sticker on the old vanity). The tiles we removed were laid on plaster smeared on cement-coated lathe. (I'm sure there's an official word for this wall contstruction - sorry I don't know it). The previous "tiles" were rectangles scored right into the plaster. No vapour barriers. And nothing has come crashing down in the past 76 years. So he is unimpressed with tales of impending doom. (Note that the bathroom is in the middle of the apartment with rooms or closets on all sides - I imagine this allows humidity that has seeped into the walls to escape again.) But I say: yes, around the fixtures was *exactly* where the old tile rotted out and the grout turned black. As well as over the tub. No, it didn't come crashing down. But it was ugly. We found grout sealant at Home Depot and calculated $50 to seal the entire bathroom, but I think the amounts given on the bottle of sealant were for sealing stone and grout. We've got glazed tile so we're just going to need to apply it to the grout lines: we're going to need a lot less.Thanks for all your help! Lots of food for thought.
Your boyfriend's blase attitude probably makes him charming, but it's in direct contradiction to everything that experienced remodelers and tilesetters know about shower surrounds. It's a waste of time and money and will damage your landlord's property for you.
Take out the sheetrock and staple up a continuous layer of 6-mil poly sheeting around the entire tub area, lapping it down over the lip on the edge of the tub (the tub does have a lip, doesn't it?). Then install 1/2" cement board using the screws designed for it. Then install the tile using thinset mortar. Then grout, and let the whole assembly cure for a few days without using it. Then seal the grout. Then take a shower.
She didn't say BOYfriend, she said partner. Let's not jump to conclusions.
C'mon, Bryan, they're redoing the bath together, with a big tub. I can't be blamed for jumping to conclusions with those facts presented.
Edited 9/28/2005 9:18 pm ET by davidmeiland
Yes, they are re-doing a bath together, with a big tub. They've been in the apt. 10 years.It is the BOY part I'm refering to, not the "friend" part.
She said 'he' somewhere in there.
Good catch, Bryan! Good catch, David!Yes, I've been here almost ten years: I moved in with my girlfriend at the time, now my ex. My current partner happens to be male and my legal husband - we celebrated our two-year anniversary in July - but I try to be low-profile about it. I'm forty-one years old and was a big fat dyke a lot longer than I've been bi. So it's still a bit embarassing. And yes, in the past, it would have been me doing the reno. But it's his project so he gets to do it.
Dave, I'm with ya..But one thing I've done a bit of thought about is the poly behind the backer..Specifically where it laps the tub flange. In my mind, I see the moisture that has somehow made it thru the grout, thru the thinset, thru the cement board, and now condensed against the poly to drain down toward the tub. Now it finds itself at the lip BEHIND the silicone at the tub-tile transition... Where does it go now?For built-up showers I can acknowledge that the moisture from the VB on the walls will make it to the shower pan and to the drain via the weep holes.. But for a tub? It's trapped.
Noteworthy is the fact that the manufacturer of DenShield specs AGAINST the use of a VB behind their backer. In a shower OR a tub.What think ye?
Your point is well taken, and reminds me of one other thing. The studs need to be furred out flush with the flange, so that the poly and CBU is not bent as they go over the flange.
Now, IF you caulk the bottom of the tile to the tub, then you will have somewhat of a dam for moisture to build up behind. I suppose it would have to build up high enough to start coming out thru the grout, which theoretically starts right where the tile does, one joint-width above the tub surface.
If you check out John Bridge's forums it seems that tilesetters are 50/50 on the caulk vs. grout thing. Personally I am undecided and have definitely put in some caulk that did not last in my time. Scraped it out and grouted instead. Major PITA.
Next time I do a shower I will.... flip a coin... or maybe see if there are better (100% silicone, sanded, pigmented) caulks to use than last time. The acrylic latex sanded grout caulks that are common out there do not last at the bottom of showers, and probably not all that well at the top of a tub/shower either.
As to the studs being furred out, if I'm being particularly anal I sometimes bother..but I've also grinded out a bit of a rabbet at the bottom of the backer as well. One dude I knew always held his backer above the flange and then filled the gap to the tub w/ thinset. Seemed to work fine.The siliconized color-matched acrylic caulks are not supposed to be used in wet locations (i.e. in the corners of showers and at tub/tile transitions). They fail quite fast in this way.. 100% silicone (or urethane) only in these areas. As far as grouting the tub transition--well I've torn out a few that were done this way and my impression was that they were evidence of tile-hack jobs. They were just as moldy as the crap-caulk jobs that I've seen failed a hundred times. Only they were 10 times the work to remove and re-caulk. Tiles are inevitably damaged, in fact, in removing bad, cracked grout at tub transitions and in corners. I think it's a real bad idea for that reason alone, and I'd be suprised to hear a tile professional on the JB Forum (or anywhere) advocate it. I'm sure the TCA requires caulk at these transitions anyhow.But I still can't get past the fact that the caulk must inevitably trap the moisture that makes it down the VB to the flange. Therefore, I'd be more for the elimination of the VB behind Hardi or CBU's on a tub surround.
Thought I was the only sane one for a moment,
Yeah, dw sucks for tile surrounds, but they're renting the damn place, not be compensated for the work (I ASSume) and chances are it isn't a long term place for them....
hell if the tile fails, Move....
My question is, does the landlord know they're doing it?
I was all set to recommend Aqua Mix Gold/ Sealers Choice ...
the best sealer ... really the only one I've found that actually works.
But it is pricy.
then again ... it actually works.
U screwed up by tiling over drywall ...
but Eric is right.
the sky will not fall ... over nite, at least.
a rental ... that U are renting and don't own?
me ... I'd spend the Aqua Mix money on pizza and beer.
or at least call the landlord and tell them you'll buy and apply if they knock the materials cost off next months rent.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa