I’m remodeling my bathroom- replacing the vinyl flooring with tile. I plan on using 1/4″ wonderboard under the floor tile. Should I tile the entire floor up to the edge of the toilet flange and and then place the pedestal sink and toilet on top of the tile, caulking the edges? My concern is that the tile under the toilet may crack.
– Lyptus
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Replies
Yes, tile it all. It will only crack if the tile is on a subfloor/underlayment that isn't at least 1 1/8" thick.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
It is normal practice to fully tile. I tile fully and the tile shouldn't crack. I never caulk around the bottom of the toilet, pointless.
Just A Guy With A Hammer
So long as the tile is set properly, and toilet is mounted securely, tile will not crack.
Caulking isn't necessary, but it's not a bad idea.
It may prevent water from leaking down through ceiling below should the toilet ever overflow.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
It may prevent water from leaking down through ceiling below should the toilet ever overflow.
The way the wax ring mushes it should work sealing both ways. Besides caulking delays knowing when the wax ring has failed and assures more than water will leak down below.
Just A Guy With A Hammer
Edited 1/16/2009 10:07 am by jagwah
Good point.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
We caulk all fixtures as that is in the plumbing code (UPC).
Water that gets under a toilet will mildew & eventually start to stink.
We do leave a small gap in the caulk behind the toilet so if the wax starts to leak you can usually see it.
But NOT caulking causes the house keeper to get on her hands and knees with a toothbrush to clean out the dribbled pee at the base of the unit.
A good solid install coupled with a discreet caulking job could very well be preferrable.
If dribbling is a problem, I would only caulk a few inches at the front of the toilet.
I'd suggest moving the basketball hoop out of the bathroom.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Who needs a hoop? This is the porcelain league!
"It may prevent water from leaking down through ceiling below should the toilet ever overflow.The way the wax ring mushes it should work sealing both ways. Besides caulking delays knowing when the wax ring has failed and assures more than water will leak down below."The wax ring would have to fill all around the OUTSIDE of the flange and pipe and any sub and/or finished floor. Many I have seen the sub-floor cut out is way too rough to make any kind of seal.In addition to overflow another reason I to seal around the toilet base in commercial usage is that they are often wet mopped several times a day..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
One plumber taught me to only caulk the front and sides, leaving the back of the unit open.
Keeps water from cleaning out, but if you have a leak, it'll still show itself out the back.
Jag,
Plumbers I work with here tell me it is code to seal around the toilet tp 'help' prevent the escape of gases should the wax ring be compromised.
I like to use grout that matches the floor grout. Lots of plumbers will use plaster which I dislike because it often ends up all over the floor grout lines.
Some caulk, but I think this is a bad idea as removal in the future could be next to impossible.
The wax ring is unlikely to seal all the way out and over the floor opening, unless the underlayment and tile is brought right up to the edge of the closet flange. Which is unlikely, as no one wants to spend that much time cutting tile to fit around the flange when it is going to be covered up.Not that I have seen that many toilets, but I've never seen a wax ring fail if the closet flange is at the proper level. The toilet fails way before the wax.A small bead of caulk around the outside edge of the toilet keeps water from flowing down into the ceiling below, whether from a toilet over flow, water splashed from the tub, etc. No harm, and definitely helpful.
In my world I tile neatly around the flange and require it if others do it. I grout and then caulk around the flange. Hence my point.
Excessive?, sure but my philosiphy has always been it's what you do where no one can see that measures the quality of your work. Why not neat-up your work at every opportunity.
I can here what every plumber might say in the future when they pull one of my toilets," Wow! The idiot did a nice tile job even under the stupid stool. I bet he was one anal SOB!." 8)
Just A Guy With A Hammer
I never thought of your reason for caulking. I personally don't like caulking around stools because it can conceal a minor leak turning it into a bigger problem. We usually caulk around the front and the sides, leave the back open for water to escape.
>>Caulking isn't necessary, but it's not a bad idea.>>It may prevent water from leaking down through ceiling below should >>the toilet ever overflow.Exactly!!!
I'm just blown away that whether or not to caulk around a bowl has gone 60 posts.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Tile up to the toilet flange and make sure that your tile is dead flat under the toilet base. If it has a "hump", the toilet will want to rock.
My guest bathroom toilet has a slight (~1/8") "hump" (it was my first bathroom tile job) and I had to use plastic leveling wedges to eliminate the rocking. It's barely noticeable, but aggravating.
Caulking around the toilet base is something I've never done since it can hide a leaky wax ring problem.
If the tile is not perfectly level, there are clear plastic spacers available at HD to provide support. These are wedges that can be tapped in and cut off to fit. This allows the area under the toilet or pedestall sink to remain uncaulked.
I've used them since the day I set the toilet (nine years ago) and realized that I had made a boo-boo. I've done quite a few bathrooms since then and checking the floor under the toilet for dead flat is always on my list of things to do, - lol
Tile up to the flange, or as close as reasonably possible. (You don't have to cut curves in the tile to fit the flange radius.) Keep the tile as flat as possible. (See note about rocking toilet below.) Grout/caulk the gap between the tile and flange to reduce the chance that water can leak through the floor, should a leak develop.
Probably the flange will end up being too low. In some cases you can loosen the flange and raise it up. (Ideally the flange should sit on top of the tile, or at least be flush with it, but that's rarely accomplished.) But more often the flange is too difficult to move and ends up in a depression, so you have to use a double wax ring, extra-thick wax ring, or one of the various adapters made for this problem.
When you set the toilet, make sure that it ABSOLUTELY does not rock when someone sits on it and wiggles their butt a bit. If it rocks at all use plastic wedges, grout, plaster, or something similar to stabilize the bowl. A toilet that doesn't rock won't leak. A toilet that does rock WILL leak, eventually.
It's been a while so I don't remember what wonderboard is?
Is it approved for tile underlayment in damp locations?
I loosen the screws at the toilet wast flange so I can shim it up and tile under the flange if possible. When not possible you want a double sized wax seal to make up the depth.
Our tanks here sometimes sweat a lot in summer due to high humidity so we caulk all the way around the base
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Wonderboard is the original CBU
I've tiled about 20 bathroom floors and what i do is after i put down hardi backer board( i like it better than wonderboard, easier to work with)is i place a flange adapter from home depot into the existing toilet flange, then i tile up to that flange so the tile is at the same height.
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/104/Level-Fit+Closet+Flange.html
Edited 1/16/2009 1:05 pm ET by woodarama
My current flange is above the subfloor by 3/4". If I use 1/4" wonderboard (I agree it's a pain to work with, I should have gone to Lowes instead of Home Depot), and my tile is 1/4", then the existing flange will sit 1/4" proud of the tile. I thought this was required to keep a tight wax seal? I could use a 1/2" backer, which would be easier because I already purchased a bunch of 1/2" boards, but that would bring the flange flush with the tile and require at least a double wax seal, right. Given the choice, which is preferred, having the flange sit proud or flush with the tile? How do you seal the flange adaptor to the existing flange? - Lyptus
My general perception is that if the flange is somewhere between slightly proud of the finished floor and sitting on top of it (about 1/4" proud) then you can use a standard ring. From flush to maybe 1/8" low you can use an extra-thick ring (which is about 1.5 times as thick as a regular one). Below that use two rings (one with the built-in plastic reenforcer & horn, and one without) or one of the other adapters.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I think you'll be fine. The flanges I use only protrude about a quarter inch
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I could use a 1/2" backer, which would be easier because I already purchased a bunch of 1/2" boards, but that would bring the flange flush with the tile and require at least a double wax seal, right."Flange flush with tile should work just fine, especially with an extra-thick ring. To be sure, turn the toilet on its side, put a straight edge across the base and measure how high the wax ring has to be to work with your toilet. BruceT
Leave your flange low. That's a lot better than too high.....and go get a Fernco flange seal. You will sleep better. They should outlaw wax rings forever!
We just tore out a toilet today with the floor rotted under it from a leaking wax ring. This can't happen with the Fernco.
$4.29....what a deal!!
Do the box stores carry those or should I visit the supply house?
tiaThe liberty of discussion is the great safeguard of all other liberties. --Macaulay.
In our area H.D. and the Do it Best Home Center carry them. I don't know about the plumbing supply houses. They are usually 10 years behind the times.
thanksThe liberty of discussion is the great safeguard of all other liberties. --Macaulay.
Have you tried the Fluidmaster one?http://www.fluidmaster.com/html/whats_new_060101.htmlI thought it was a little easier to install than the Fernco, but I'd take either one over wax.Brian
The Fernco is the only way to go. It's virtually impossible to screw it up. It's so simple and foolproof that it should be required by code!
Edit: Sorry...I didn't open the link before responding. I thought you were talking about the old one, which was a p.o.s.
This looks like a comparable product to the Fernco.
Edited 1/17/2009 12:35 pm ET by BoJangles
While the adapters are probably superior, a properly applied wax ring of the correct thickness, WITH A BUILT-IN HORN, will not leak unless the toilet is rocking, and even then only if there's a clog in the pipe. There is no pressure in the connection with properly operating plumbing, so gravity takes care of preventing leaks. You only need the wax ring for a gas seal, and to prevent leakage in the (rare) case of a clog in the pipe -- the horn molded into the ring takes care of "aiming" the water into the pipe.The only exception I've seen to this is when the toilet was so loose (due to rocking) that it was essentially unbolted from the flange and slid back to partially obstruct the pipe.[I might add that another reason for wax ring failure, besides rocking, is the use of a plunger to attempt to clear a clog that is past the toilet gooseneck. This can blow out the wax ring.]
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Edited 1/17/2009 1:14 pm by DanH
I might add that another reason for wax ring failure, besides rocking, is the use of a plunger to attempt to clear a clog that is past the toilet gooseneck. This can blow out the wax ring.
dang, I never considered that.
Good stuff. Thanks
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
a properly applied wax ring of the correct thickness, WITH A BUILT-IN HORN, will not leak
I see no advantage to the plastic horn - it restricts the throat and could increase the probability of clog.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Generally there's a much more severe restriction in the toilet horn, just above the ring. Anything that passes through that will make it through the wax ring horn.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Generally there's a much more severe restriction in the toilet horn, just above the ring. Anything that passes through that will make it through the wax ring horn.
A number of the 1.6 gallon toilets have increased the trap diameter to improve flushing. A horned wax ring will reduce the diameter by an inch or more.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
What are you guys eating??
Chew 26 times...................
While the adapters are probably superior, a properly applied wax ring of the correct thickness, WITH A BUILT-IN HORN, will not leak unless the toilet is rocking, and even then only if there's a clog in the pipe. There is no pressure in the connection with properly operating plumbing, so gravity takes care of preventing leaks. You only need the wax ring for a gas seal, and to prevent leakage in the (rare) case of a clog in the pipe -- the horn molded into the ring takes care of "aiming" the water into the pipe.
The problem with wax rings, besides being messy, is that in many situations you are guessing whether you have enough height or too much height etc. This simple Fernco sealer takes all the guess work out of the whole process. It's 99.9% foolproof.....although some fools are ingenius enough to screw it up I'm sure.
For a couple bucks more than a ring with a horn, why take chances. They are also the perfect solution for floors with heat in the floor (where you are afraid to melt the wax ring)
I agree that you have to take a little care (and possibly some measurements) to be sure that the wax ring is the right thickness.And certainly there's an advantage re vinyl flooring in that without the wax there's less likelihood of a stain spreading out from under the stool. Hadn't thought about the heated floor -- I'd hope that the heat doesn't run under the stool, though, and it would never get hot enough to melt the ring.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The problem with wax rings, besides being messy, is that in many situations you are guessing whether you have enough height or too much height etc.
If the closet flange is properly installed just above the finished floor, there is no "guess work" with a standard wax ring. If the flange is too low, then a gasketed flange extender is the proper fix.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
The point is....all you need to do is use the Fernco fitting and you don't need to mess with anything else.....extenders, wax rings.
This is a great product. I should be a sales rep. You should try one sometime!
Given the choice, which is preferred, having the flange sit proud or flush with the tile?
What is prefered is using a thick enough tile backer board to guarantee a quality floor that won't flex and crack.
Then, rather than using doubled wax rings, use a flange extender (as someone already suggested).
View Image
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
No,No.....the Fernco is a much better way to go. Have you ever seen or used them? If not, take a look and you will be convinced!
No,No.....the Fernco is a much better way to go. Have you ever seen or used them? If not, take a look and you will be convinced!
I've used the Fluidmaster version and I don't trust them to stay in place. I would use a flange adapter and wax ring any day over those "fits-all" extenders.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"What is prefered is using a thick enough tile backer board to guarantee a quality floor that won't flex and crack."
backerboard has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of a floor, and the thickness of the backerboard has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the job.
backer boards come in different thickness the help match the height of adjecent finished floors. Backer board is not structural. Subflooring is.
what is preferable, is to lay substantial subflooring to provide a strong base for a floor that won't flex and crack. Also preferable is match that installation with a suitable thickness tile backer for a nice transition to any other flooring.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
backerboard has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of a floor, and the thickness of the backerboard has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the job.
Backer board is not structural. Subflooring is.
Perhaps not if you use Hardibacker, but I use fiberglass matt reinforced cement backer boad (WonderBoard or Durock).
"DUROCK cement board provides high flexural strength that resists bending to prevent finish cracking."
1/2" cement board is stiffer than 1/2" plywood and adds considerable resistance to deflection, particularly if it's attached to the subfloor with mastic or construction adhesive and screwed 8" oc in every part of the field.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"DUROCK cement board provides high flexural strength that resists bending to prevent finish cracking."
yeah ... says who?
the guy that sold you the durock?
for future reference ... backer board is backer board ...
and subfloor is subfloor.
and starting with substantial subfloor is the key.
" but I use fiberglass matt reinforced "
got to admit though ... dressed up like that it sounds pretty impressive!
fiberglass reinforced and all ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
backer board is backer board ...
Hardly. Hardibacker is nothing but a substrate for mastic or thinset.
Fiberglass reinforced cement board is a structural material as well as a substrate. It has significant modulus of elasticity and tensile strength.
and starting with substantial subfloor is the key
That goes without saying, but that's not what we were discussing.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
feel free to continue doing it wrong.
I'm simply pointing out the common knowledge for everyone else.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm simply pointing out the common knowledge for everyone else.
The only thing you're doing is perpetuating ignorance and misinformation. And, in the process, making a fool of yourself.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
You guys keep this up.
I'm charging admission starting now.................
is there a consensus about whether the flange should sit on the backer board or on the tile? I've got two in the works right now and i'm holding off until the brain trust settles the issue. :)
With the toilets I've worked with (which admittedly is not that many) it appears that things work out best if the flange is on top of the finished floor.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The flange, at least w every toilet I've ever seen, is meant to go on top of the finished floor.Many times in the course of a reno, the floor hieght changes and it is impractical ($$$) to move the flange. Luckily there are all types adapters available to make a low flange work.I don't think I have ever personally seen a plumber walk into a tiled bathroom, cut the pipe flush w the finished floor, glue on a flange, drill the tile, and install a couple screws in the flange.Last couple baths I've done, I've made spacers out of backer board to get the flange up to the right height, then tile up to the spacer.I hate the flange being too low, and will try to avoid it, but on most renos, and on a lot of new work, it ends up low to some degree.(i'll add to this) Too high a flange is a MAJOR PITA,,,, whatever you do, don't set it too high. This may actually be why they are usually installed a little low>Happy pipe fitting, Harry
Edited 1/20/2009 7:31 am ET by inperfectionist
flange on top of finished floor is typical.
flange flush with finished floor isn't a problem.
recently laid a floor for a GC who's plumber wanted the tile cut wide so he could set his flange down into the tile ... aka flush. Said he's started running into toilets that won't set tight to the floor with the flange on top.
personally haven't seen that ... but the plumber sets way more toilets than I do.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
recently laid a floor for a GC who's plumber wanted the tile cut wide so he could set his flange down into the tile ... aka flush. Said he's started running into toilets that won't set tight to the floor with the flange on top.
I've seen that problem several times. That's why I prefer to leave the flange low when adding tile to an existing floor.
The Fernco flange seal will accomodate at least an inch of extra depth with no problem.
I wonder if this is something specific to different models/brands of toilets. Maybe it is common is some countries to do it flush, so those models don't work as well when the flange is on top?I've always done the flange on top of tile myself, but we're only talking 10 or so.
"I wonder if this is something specific to different models/brands of toilets. "
it's gotta be. That plumber said it was a recent problem.
not sure if he meant all toilets or like yous aid, certain models or brands.
but I can see companies scrimping on some little design that's worked for the past 100 yrs to try and save a penny.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Boy I'm going to keep that in mind. I can easily imagine replacing two of our existing toilets, and I know we did flange over the tile. And one can only be replaced with a low back one piece. I've picked out a Toto that will fit, but now I'm going to make sure about the flange issue.
for what it's worth ...
I usually set the flange over the finished tile ...
and I also recommend Toto toilets.
so far ... no known problems.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah, and keep in mind that not all bathrooms are tiled. As many get vinyl as get tile, and with vinyl the flange will generally be placed on top of the underlayment, being nearly full height proud of the surface.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Ah, taste a sample of the return to the Breaktime of old where construction related conversation takes place to points of detail where all learn from valuable input.
There will always be points of conflict where likeminded men of goodwill differ to the betterment of the whole.
Carry on gentlemen, carry on.
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
When ever possible drain flange on the tile.Wallyo
Fiberglass reinforced cement board is a structural material as well as a substrate.
(From the USG website, FAQ's): "No. DUROCK is not a structural product."
k
Fiberglass reinforced cement board is a structural material as well as a substrate.
(From the USG website, FAQ's): "No. DUROCK is not a structural product."
Without context, that's a meaningless statement. Exterior gypsum board and fiberboard are structural sheathings suitable for commercial applications, but they're not suitable for subfloors or roor decks.
I never suggested that fiberglass-matt reinforced cement board is a substitute for subfloor. But there's no question that it adds significant stiffness to a plywood subfloor and vastly improves the base for a durable tile floor. Hardibacker, particularly the thinner ones, do not.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
What part of "DUROCK is not a structural product." don't you understand?
Durock is not a structural product. period. tau b, young's modulus, shear applications, etc. etc.
Yeah, I've seen the real world effects, and ironically, Hardibacker has stiffened floors more than Durock in my experience.
But to go on an informational message board and say that durock has structural strength, (as you did), is, what's the word to use here...
oh never mind...
k