When I read Sarah Susanka’s books on Creating the Not So Big House, I notice many of the same characteristics that draw me to a Timberframe. Examples: open floor plans, exposed roof/ceiling framing, varying ceiling heights, alcoves.
If I can get the same look/feel from either a stick built frame or a timberframe, which is going to be more cost effective?
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>>>which is going to be more cost effective?
Stick. When I was researching this, one of the basic facts about timberframing was that it undeniably costs more. Of course, some people would argue that it's worth it, but that's a subjective matter.
If you wrap it in foam/sips, I believe that over the life of the house, the timberframe is likely to be less expensive.And life span itself is an interesting question.Which will last longer, a building built with close attention to detail or with speed and "efficiency?"
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." Reinhold Neihburh: 'The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness'http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Scott's right.
I've cut a frame only once, but one of the guys I was working with had chopped a few thousand mortises, and the project went smoothly.
Even so, a stick frame could have been completed in much less time than it took to cut, and then we still had to raise it.
Fun, though.
AitchKay
Stick frame is less$$$$
Nicer details and finishes can make a stick built a very nice home. I did it when my timber builder tried to take me for a ride. I often wonder what he did with the package and half built frame I walked away from as a result of his "less than being truthful" attitude. I know it made for some expensive yard art.
My 30K loss was better than me shooting him and going to jail.
So was the problem with the choice of frame or the choice of framer?
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." Reinhold Neihburh: 'The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness'http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
The framer. There were a few problems on his side. I had a time line that had to be followed and he knew it right up front and I was no going to change as there were too many pieces in motion.
I had spent a fair amount of time designing the spaces and it was agreed that the TF house had to duplicate the stick built. While I was waiting for the frame to show up AND getting song and dance stories from him I had the crew layout both the stick and timber frames on the first floor deck. Posts in hallways as well as not being able to open the celler door all the way were problems. I could have worked around these but who knows what I would have found on the second floor.
Greetings! Welcome to BT.
Stick built is much less time consuming than timber framing but it's possible to do both without adding a lot of time.
For example; I once designed and built a large cathedral ceiling home using standard framing except for exposed 4X doug fir rafters which I had prefinished prior to beginning the job. We also used pre-painted Homasote roofing/ceiling with XPS insulation above. That roof didn't take any more time to build than standard stick framing.
Edited 12/4/2009 1:28 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Maybe I'm a little biased here but nothing compares to the beauty of a hand cut timber frame. I'm in the process of selling my first custom build family home (done when I was just 22 ). It is very hard to let go. Fore years I would sit and and look at a particular joint (and there were hundreds) and remember laying it out , cutting it and then assembling it and raising the frame. It's an incredible feeling. If you've got time you could have someone help you design it and lay it out for you. It doesn't take long to learn how to cut a mortise and tenon. It will take longer, and it will cost more but I think it's worth it. You could also have elements like timber trusses etc. I guess it depends on what kind of person you are. If you're anything like me, then you'd agree that the journey is just as important as the destination. ;) However you chose to to do your project have fun and be safe.
Take care,
Randy
And I'm thinking that if you believe Susanka's approach is similar to the typical timber frame then you haven't really appreciated what she's talking about. I've no doubt that you could build a Susanka house with timber framing, but having timber framing doesn't make it a Susanka house.
Dan, I'm curious what you see as the difference? Around here there are certainly some overly-grand timber frames, but the vast majority I've seen or worked on were relatively modest. I've read all of Susanka's books, I think, and she draws heavily from the book A Pattern Language, which suggests many principles in line with timber framing. She uses a lot of applied trim and woodwork to define and combine spaces in a way that timber frames do integrally.
Granted, I've only seen a few timber-framed homes, and nothing done specifically to Susanka's specs, but the timber-framed homes tended toward the large public spaces which Susanka tends to disdain.Certainly Susanka emphasizes the warmth of wood, but balanced. Too many timber-frame structures overwhelm you with wood (in addition to emphasizing "openness" at the expense of intimacy).
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
Too many timber-frame structures overwhelm you with wood (in addition to emphasizing "openness" at the expense of intimacy).
I hear ya there. Here's a hybrid timber frame we did a major overhaul on recently. It was wood overload, with oak beams, ceilings & walls and beige carpeting. We reversed the color scheme:
http://harborsidedesign.com/living-spaces.cfm?row=1&photo=1&img=167
And here's one we built new several years ago. A little too open, like you said, but overall the house is fairly modest. White ceilings instead of wood help keep it from being too cabin-y:
http://harborsidedesign.com/living-spaces.cfm?row=17&photo=19&img=50
When you say "hybrid timber frame", what do you mean, exactly?
Especially in the first link, it doesn't look any different than a stud framed house with some larger exposed beams in the ceiling.
If all the "timber framing" is the ceiling, I guess I've done "timber framing", lol. Or was there some serious joinery that I missed?
The second one has some more obvious large member frame elements...
Nice projects regardless of terminology, of course.
k
By "hybrid" I mean a combination of traditional timber framing or modern post-and-beam framing, usually in the ceiling, with stud framed walls. Or it can mean that a wing of a house is timber framed while the rest of the house is conventionally framed, which was the case in the second photo I linked to.
I thought the other project, with the white painted beams, had structural timbers supporting the roof. When I visited the site I recall seeing joinery that was better than the average applied beam ceiling. The timbers are solid oak, not boards.
I just asked the architect in our office who managed that project though, and he said that they were "mostly" decorative, with 2x8's or 2x10's as the roof framing. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the compliments ;-)
Well, it goes back to the op's original question about timber framing and design. That project is a good one for him to look at, really- it has the aesthetic pop of big members (which can still be structural, if oversized) with the economy of normal framing.
k
KFC
That sort of reminds me of Vinyl roofs. The look of a convertable but none of the joys of a convertable..
Hey, why don't you cover the house with Faux brick or stone while you're at it.. Or vinyl siding to look like wood siding.. I mean they look just the same don't they?
Cheap imitations always are really desirable!
There's nothing faux about a true hybrid, where the exposed elements are chosen for maximum impact. Where you're going to put sheetrock anyway, use normal framing, and the exposed beams in the ceiling/roof can be the true structure, although probably oversized in strict terms.I see timberframes where half the vertical elements get buried in drywall anyway. What's the point?k
I'm sorry maybe I'm a purist. Maybe My views aren't in line with modern tastes.. I own original Vintage cars, not fiberglas replicas. My Timber frame is a proper timberframe (in fact it's doubly proper since It's timberframed both inside and out)
I feel that the cost of my timber frame was cheaper than if I had built it using stick framing. In fact I know so because I priced out each. Now the number that I have always ignored is labor..
I was going to do the labor either way. Plus with no experiance stick framing The learning curve for that would be similar to the learning curve to do timberframing..
So to pros who have plenty of experiance stick framing what I am saying sounds like pure balderdash.. It's not though..
Wood is cheaper, much cheaper if purchased direct from a sawmill. Labor is the same to a novice. I might add that the labor was far more satifying doing the timberframing than doing the stick framing I did on some interior walls.
To me there is no such thing as a hybred timberframe.. instead it's a house with large wood accents..
I sit here looking around at what I've done. Look at every joint and connection with pride. I don't see how a person can take pride in work that is covered over by sheetrock.
Sheetrock which can merely be colored with paint or paper. What pleasure is there in that?
In my house the furniture is merely something to use.. not the focal point..The rug on the floor covers up rather than is the focal point of a room..
It has to do with the beauty of wood.. Walk into my home and the timbers may be made of pure burls or wild grain. Each beam was hand selected for a given location. This means something because each beam is unique, selected for an interesting pattern or grain. The beauty is in the selection, the joy of location..
I grew up looking in old barns with their massive timbers and felt the comfort and joy of the solidarity. We'd climb up the beams and tap the pegs in in the fall and out in the spring knowing that wood needed to flex or damage would result..
So like a Ferrarrri is differant than a Cadillac a timberframe is differant than a stick framed house with wood accents.
Frenchy makes some valid points, but I gotta say Mike Maines does some top-notch, sweet looking stuff!
Frenchy acts like he's the only one who appreciates wood.
But in the real world, we don't all live in a forest, sell sawmills, and have the time and money to spend eight years building a home and fighting with inspectors.
Bang for the buck is not to be snorted away with pretentious ideals.
No one, and I mean no one, will ever hire Frenchy to build a house to his ideals.
k
Amen to that. Nor would I want to work this hard for someone else..
I guess all of my rants are for those who settle for modest when for the same cost they can have great..
Please remember that my house was built part time while I held down a full time job.. that's the reason it took so long.. Had it been a full time project It would have been done much much faster..
Since I could only work part time I really did increase the amount of work I had to do. That is I only did one section per year. I'd tear it down and then build new. When that was finished I'd tear down more etc.. Meanwhile living in the old house untill enough of the new house was finished to live in that..
The wealthy simply farm all that out and have a crew big enough to finish it in a reasonable time frame. In addition most simply buy kits and have them assembled..
That seriously will increase the cost of a timberframe.. However buying roughsawn Green timbers, drying them, then milling them multiplies the amount of work at least 10 fold..
I would have been far better off if I'd milled them green and put them up.. However then I wouldn't have so few checks in them. Out of the hundreds of timbers in my home I counted only 8 with any checks at all in them.. If I'd done it the easy way I could count hundreds of timbers that would be checked and maybe 8 timbers not checked.
No this is not for the pro who has to to bid for a job and face price competion. Nor for those who have neither the ambition or willingness to work very hard to achieve something unique and timeless.
IN all fairness my house should not ever be compared against tract homes or even custom homes built to a budget. It is beyond that. While it is far from perfect it represents my very best efforts. Without concern for costs.. ( except that I built it very much on the cheap)
I substituted out of the box thinking and scrounging on a extreme level to lower my costs so that I could use the best materials without fear of exceeding my budget..
frenchy...did you have a FEL? How'd you lift the timbers?View Image
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Yes, if you remember I sold them for a living. My company let me drag one home for a demo. If we sold it I'd take another..
Only the last year of construction did it prove to be a problem. Another salesman sold the one I used but we couldn't get it out because it would tear up my neighbors lawn (he'd let me drive across it when it was frozen and we had to wait untill the ground refroze)
We eventually dealt with the problem.
I think I already showed you these. Me and just two other guys did this in three long days. We used 2 Geni Lifts. Probably could come in handy in a TF in part but you'd still need some kind of FEL...or something. Thats probably one of the bigger expenses in doing a TF imo. Renting probably wouldn't pay so you'd need to own one.
http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/TimberFramingACeilingInEastHamptonLINY208#slideshow/5231928221742132530
It'd be great if a Geni Lift could do the bulk of the work but to date I've never seen anyone else use them in this kinda work.View Image
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Andy,
There are regularly good decent telehandlers going for very modest money around here.
During the height of the building boom I was selling 50 Cats and 50 lulls a year and only my last year did I dip down under 50. I was one of about 30 guys selling telehandlers in Minnesota so you can see how many are around and when the housing boom eneded all of them sat around looking for homes..
I used to be able to sell almosyt any old telehandler for $20,000 or more.. lately I've seen some relatively new ones with a great deal of extras sell for that sort of money..
A telehandler isn't something that will ever wear out to the point it is cheaper to replace it than repair it. You simply cannot use them that hard.
In building you'd be amazed at the efficencies a telehandler can give you..
Building new it used to replace 2 grunts and still build the home 20% cheaper.. the money you didn't spend on the grunts made the payments and the 20% faster went into your pocket..
If you bought one today at say $20,000 your monthly payments would be around $350 a month. Not too much help you can get willing to work for $350 a month..
Whoa, is that a house? Nice looking work. What kind of wood is it--looks like southern pine?
We rent Genie lifts all the time--probably should buy one. Great for all kinds of lifting tasks.
Thanks Mike..The beams are real but we installed them just for looks. Was out in Watermill (East Hampton)LI. The house was HUGEEEEE. And yep..they were SYP.
I noticed a nice cpl of Geni Lifts for sale on Ebay a ways back but I wasn't ready to buy at the time.
Once I sell my crib and move to the Western N.Carolina mtns I'll probably compromise for the first time in my life and do a a a a...I can't even say it..lol...a Hybrid timber frame...mainly b/c I only have so much more time left in my life..lol.
My thought is to do a small but minted out one to start... with plans for the additions that I can take my time with and possibly do in 'all' timber frame.
I'm gettin' more realistic in my old age......I think (I've heard that from me before..lol).With only having so much money...depending on what I get when my house is sold I know I have many things to weigh out in building a TF. One being will I buy me a Norwood 2000 mill or buy my timbers milled and just buy a FEL which probably would come more in handy than a mill but I really'd rather have a mill. I try and think about ways to erect the thing once it's all cut without having to count on too many other trades.
Even considering a cpl of donkeys w/harness'...geni lifts...and this'n that...don't laugh...I've done more convoluted things than that...lolWho knows which way the wind'll blow???View Image
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I'm sure whatever you end up building will be beautiful.
I can see a straw bale house and a team of oxen in my future, so I won't laugh at your donkeys....
I also thought of straw bale with the TF instead of SIPS. Just thinking out loud.
Been spending lots of time (again) in the Forestry Forum.
Too bad you weren't looking to buy in Western NC (asheville area). I'd love to find someone with the same mindset as me as far as doing a project like this. Splitting a nice large chunk O' land and splitting some equipment would be the way to go. Then one might be able to afford to do it all.
It's never that EZ though....if nothing else the difficulties in getting what you're after keeps your wheels spinnin'...which is cool...as long as my body holds out. So far...so good : )View Image
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Mike,
I sincerly hope that you don't see my views as somehow an attack on yours.. People want what you build. There were a lot of cars with vynl roofs made so clearly more people are concerned with appearance than those seeking the real thing.
Not at all Frenchy, I know you feel strongly about the techniques you used to build your home. You're certainly entitled to those opinions! Working in and around and designing various types of homes over the years I've found a different perspective, that's all--
I had the luxury of taking whatever time it took plus access to wood at insanely modest prices.. (and a number of other bargins besides).. No professional would consider cheap wood a good deal since the labor needed to prepare it would offset any cost savings.
However cash outlay was my only expense in doing this home.. So I completely understand when budget minded people demand fast and cheap.
I think that's a pity because fast and cheap has produced American homes that last an average of 56 years before they are taken down or so greatly remodeled they may well have been completely torn down..
Looking in Europe I see differant values. Homes there probably average close to 200 years old.. In 200 years the wood it takes to build them can be regrown and thus it is sustainable.
IN America we had limitless forests to build from and thus the idea of perminance doesn't have the value it does in Europe.. Now it's been more than 40 years since I visited Mexico and perhaps it no longer is valid but most of the homes I saw there were very much in tune with the resources available.. Adobe and clay tiles were most common which are extremely sustainable and durable in that climate..
The point I'm trying to make is about sustainability. If stick framing was always done with wood that took 50 years to grow thenthe only issue I would have is about energy consupmtion in building and heating the place..
frenchy, there's nothing inherently "throw-away" about stick framing. I grew up in Massachusetts, where I regularly saw four hundred year old stick framed homes, and now live in the bay area and work on almost exclusively 100 year old stick framed homes, which with new foundations and some hardware will probably be around for hundreds more.Yes, a large percentage of house are built quickly and cheaply today, and may well have a life span of 30 years. But that speaks to a separate issue beyond framing choices.When you throw around disparaging terms, you make yourself sound ill-informed. Maximizing efficiency doesn't have to mean speed and economy at the cost of quality and longevity, if quality and longevity are considered in the equation of what is to be efficiently produced.In other words, if the goal is a long lasting, beautiful structure, the most *efficient* (in terms of time and money) way to reach that goal will probably involve some stick framing.k
> In other words, if the goal is a long lasting, beautiful structure, the most *efficient* (in terms of time and money) way to reach that goal will probably involve some stick framing.Well, for long-lasting it might involve some stonework. But then you have to be taking a REALLY long view.
A society that presumes a norm of violence and celebrates aggression, whether in the subway, on the football field, or in the conduct of its business, cannot help making celebrities of the people who would destroy it. --Lewis H. Lapham
Yeah, or concrete. I thought about that as I was listing my history- I've been to Europe. But is anyone arguing that the absolute only way to judge the "best" framing technique is longevity?I would argue that a stone building that stood for 1000 years may well not be as *efficient* as a stick framed one that lasted for 300, at least in terms of modern costs and time involved.But the art of efficency that I'm speaking of isn't simple Taylorism or Fritz Malcher kind of stuff, it's a wisdom of choices that would take a kind of calculus or fuzzy logic that is beyond any formula or computer. The examples I've seen that come closest to that ideal involve plenty of structural concrete, stick-framing, and also large timbers in carefully selected areas. A willingness to at least consider almost any material tends to pervade these types of buildings.Frankly, in the end, longevity usually has more to do with detail-oriented flashings, claddings and penetrations than framing choice.k
My point (if indeed there was one) was to point out that there is no single "best" approach. Lots of pretty darn good approaches, from stick frame to timber frame to SIP to ICF to ... Each has its advantages, but, as always, the devil is in the details. A well-detailed sod hut with modest maintenance can last 100 years. A hacked-up timberframe can be rotting apart in 10.
A society that presumes a norm of violence and celebrates aggression, whether in the subway, on the football field, or in the conduct of its business, cannot help making celebrities of the people who would destroy it. --Lewis H. Lapham
well said.
k
Thank you for the compliments, but I personally didn't have anything to do with either project I posted, I just thought they were good examples of timber framing (and I was wrong about one of them!)
I do have to say that while I admire Frenchy's dedication to true timber framing, and it was a similar purist view that got me into building in the first place, after working on quite a few timber framed homes (including the one from 1817 that I grew up in) they don't hold the same appeal they once did for me.
There are too many advantages to stick built frames, including the fact that they can be built by any decent carpenter. Posts and braces really get in the way when you are trying to design a house that will perform as well as possible on a limited budget. The place where the additional cost and material of timber framing is least noticeable, and the effect is most dramatic, is overhead, in a roof or ceiling.
Of the two nearest competitors to the company where I work, one specializes in super-efficient homes, and the other in traditional timber frames. Both are struggling for work right now. We dabble in both, but specialize in being able to consider and execute any option out there. We are currently hiring carpenters and (hopefully) an assistant for the design department. I think that says a lot about whether a hybrid approach is reasonable or not.
Oh, and Frenchy--we don't do any vinyl siding ;-)
Mike, that is a helluva response, and I didn't realize the "sister" company thing. Either way, the examples shown are awesome, and I can understand your mental shift now. Happens to everyone I guess. That purist thing gets caught and banged around by life. I showed my wife the harborside website, and she was instantly impressed. Building with an eye to sustainability is never gonna be perfected completely, but that doesn't mean taste and character and all the good stuff have to be abandoned.
Edited 12/6/2009 6:16 pm ET by MgGuy
..."after working on quite a few timber framed homes (including the one from 1817 that I grew up in) they don't hold the same appeal they once did for me."
I've gone through a similar transformation over forty-some years, while working on them and comparing the overall results with stick frame jobs I've built. I still enjoy seeing them and being in them but that doesn't inspire me to build one as my home.
I've gone through a similar transformation over forty-some years, while working on them and comparing the overall results with stick frame jobs I've built. I still enjoy seeing them and being in them but that doesn't inspire me to build one as my home.<<<Why is that?
Too much grain'n wood?View Image
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andybuildz.
Having built my house with SIP's if I were to do it all over again (by myself) I would use ICF's instead of SIP's. I honestly believe that I would have cut a full year off my time plus spent about the same amount.. (hindsite is 20-20) The only thing I would have done in SIP's would have been the roof panels. Plus instead of putting them on vertically I would have laid them horizontally saving myself many many hours of labor..
Not to mention had a far stronger house!
frenchy...I too thought about using ICF's...mainly because one person could handle them but then I discovered Thermasteel. That I can do myself too and it's even better'n SIPS.
Check out this small Timber Frame garden room I did towards the end of this summer. You can see the Thermasteel panels http://www.thermasteelcorp.com/residentialph.html They come cut to 'any' size you want and I could handle them alone if I wanted to. Reallyyyyyyyy simple to install!
http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/GardenRoom09#slideshow/5365871698594548514View Image
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Why is that?Too much grain'n wood?
Nope. I'm just more interested in building an inexpensive, highly energy efficient stick home next.
Like in this room (not the best photo, sorry) the beams are honest (if oversized) exposed structural elements. The walls are normal stud framing, the floors TJI's, etc. etc.
It doesn't show in the photo, but the feel in that room is great, I'd venture comparable to if it had been "timber framed". OK, there isn't any fancy joinery, which us carpenters get off on, but I'd venture 95 out of 100 folks would enjoy being in a space like that just as much as a true "timber frame". At like 1/4 the labor cost.
k
Hybrid Timber Framing still uses structural elements often. There is a lot more to Hybrid than simply "decor pieces"
https://arrowtimber.com/hybrid-timber-framing/
I've been reading all your replies with much interest. Your input is varied, and has made me think. Some of your input, I am afraid, has gone over my head....I am not a builder or a designer, but someone who will need to find and hire those professionals. My farmhome will be built, Lord willing, in a couple of years. This interim time is my time to do the decision making, planning, (even dreaming at bit). I am beginning to understand that perhaps I can have the best of both design elements, The Susanka concept and elements of a timberframe. I have to agree with Mike Maines, in that I am one of the 98% who (when you live in the real world and have to compare costs) won't care if the timbers are beautifully joined together or even structural ....the overall effect is what is desired. (Sorry frenchy, even tho there are woods on my farm....I cannot live in the barn for years while the kind of work you did is replicated)
A Pattern Language is my next read.
Since, it seems, that most of you who got in on my comparison question, are in the business of building....your responses raise another question. How does a person go about finding those people who can be trusted 'not take over' but to 'come alongside' in my process of design and build? AND this to be done in a rural area where likely the choices are limited. My rural area is the rolling hills of South Eastern Virginia.
There is only one way to find those who can be trusted and that is do plenty of research.. ask everyone who has had a house built recently what their experiance was..
One point I should make though.. No contractor who really knows what he is doing will exactly follow your ideas or thoughts without proposing suggestions for improvements or alternate methods.. His role shouldn't be that of a yes man. He should achieve your goal but exactly how should best be left to him..
Thank you for that clarification as to the working relationship between client and builder.
It really depends.
Do you intend to write a check or do the work yourself? This your first home or are you an experianced carpenter?
Most of those who have written thus far either have had a lot of experance stick building and little or none timberframing..
Here is the truth.
If you build it yourself and you don't have much or any experiance you will be almost as fast timberframing as stick framing..
The real savings can be in the cost of the wood..
Any main timber larger than 8"x8" is exempt from all building code requirements and thus you can build your home with sawmill wood..
Sawmill wood is massively less expensive than wood purchased at a lumberyard or big box store..
How cheap?
My home which is 5500sq.ft. and built with hardwoods such as black walnut, cherry, white oak, and maple (among others) It has more than 50,000 bd.ft. of wood.. I've spent a total of $25,000.00
How much is that? Well a typical house has about 5000bd.ft. of wood in it.. so you could build 10 houses with the wood I am using in mine..
One really sad part about a stick built house is what nobody has mentioned so far.. It's called inefficency. Every 16 inches you have a piece of wood conducting cold air in and warm air out. (or visa versa in a cooling climate).. The R value of wood is not very high. a wall that is insulated with an R value of 16 has to be derated 80% according to code for thermal loss through studs.
Once you timber frame you can cover the whole exterior with foam and not only have a higher rating but build it like a thermos bottom with total seperation between inside and out.. (there are other choices as well for insulation value)
And what is stopping one from covering the exterior of a stick framed house with foam?
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Going with a stick built will be much more cost effective. Timber frame is nice but way more expensive to build.All those characteristics you desire can be built into a stick built home easily.
Two points to consider here:
1) Have you looked into timberframe kits? I haven't run the numbers to compare whether the easier assembly comes in cheaper despite factory cutting of the parts but, I am hopeful.
2) Consider purchasing your lumber from a nearby sawyer. When I was timberframing years ago, all our materials were purchased VERY locally. In fact, there were times when trees were felled and milled on the same property on which a home or barn was being raised.
Food for thought.
Of course, you could always build a conventional stick frame with timber accents.
Cheers and good luck!
-Ed
An experienced timberframer?
I gots a question.
Am I doing myself a dis-service by employing a relatively new timberframer (new to his business - has had much experience in building the large wooden power pole towers)?
Or would I be better off dealing with a national, high priced, outfit with the huge Hundigger (sp?) and their transportation costs?
The newby has access to all of the local logging outfits and kilns. His package will come with his crane so's I won't need one for the raising. Therefore, I think my biggest issue by going his way would lie in the SIP company and how they fit their parts together - since he doesn't have the working relationship as the other outfits would...
There is a fundamental weakness of SIP's that only skill and the right equipment will minimise.
That is at their joints..
The adhesive used to connect the panels doesn't get evenly spread and thus gaps will exist between panels.. Those gaps are the weakness of all SIP's regardless of brand..
I spent a great deal of time attempting to seal those gaps as completely as possible yet I failed. If the gaps had been properly sealed when rain came it wouldn't have leaked in even before I got the roof tarpapered and shingled.
I tried virtaully everything to join them together. Come alongs, screwing on blocks and using bar clamps, hydraulic pressure, leverage etc..
In the end what worked the best was to change the panel orientation and use the weight of the panel (plus a couple guys to seal the connection)
That is why based on my experiance I would forego panels on the side walls and build with ICF's. Only on the roof would use SIP panels and there instead of vertical orientation I would go with horizontal orientation.
Next those wonderful hundiggers are worthless on green timbers.. you can have a perfect joint the first year but by the time the timbers dry out the gaps will be really noteable..
There are ways to deal with that issue. I noted all the Amish build with green timbers and yet decades later their joints are really tight. The trick is what joint to use and how to build the joint in a fashion that will allow for the shrinkage that results when the timbers dry..
That is a skill that only comes with time and attention to detail that hand crafting can produce.. (I got lucky, I selected my jopints on what the Amish did and without knowing why As timbers dried most of my joints remain remarkably tight..)
You might want to have Al Cobb, of the SIPschool, weigh in on this topic. You ask a good question and I fel that ultimately, it depends upon how well your timberframer is going to work with the SIP manufacturer. He's going to need to be very organized, and a good communicator with the ability to manage a good relationship with the SIP folks.
Al Cobb can be reached via email at [email protected]
Cheers and good luck!
-Ed
One option that we have used in a few recent projects in a hybrid of stick and timberframe. This is usually stick framed walls with exposed timberframe on the second floor or a few exposed trusses mixed with regular rafters.
This keeps the costs down but allows the beauty of the timberframe to show at its best.