I am seriously considering building a timberframe in the real near future and i have a ? about the insulated panels to enclose it. does anybody know of any that do not give off any harmful fumes. I would really like this to be as “green” as possible. I would consider straw bales but I’m sure I would be in for a long battle at Village Hall. Am I just being ridiculous about the panels? I have never used them but with them being made with O.S.B I would think they give off fumes. Other than that ,I think that is one of the most efficient ways to go these days. I would appreciate all replies. Thanks Petey
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I'm an architectural intern building a panel house myself- not a timber frame but a true Structural Insulated Panel design. SIPS and stress skin panels are unbeatable for energy efficiency per dollar spent.
I have researched this extensively and feel confident assuring you that you will not have an off-gassing problem if you use a quality panel. They save a ton of wood and a lot of wasted energy- very green.
I'm going with R-Control but there are many others of comperable quality.
Kevin Halliburton
Kevin,
lets have some details! where, when, what size, type, how, who, and why?
Thanks , I agree, the timberframe is the way to go. To all, who designed your frame? I want to do it myself but will need some help. Keep the threads comming Peace
Petey,
I did. Kinda simple too, then to verify that everything would work I built an exact scale (one inch equals one foot) model of the frame from the slab wood. (I bet I've got well over a thousand hours in that but it pointed out a couple of areas that needed addressing so I'm glad I did it..
Mr. French, where did you learn the joinery and the engineering of the rafters, floor joists, etc. . I have been a carpenter/woodworker for 26 years but have never had the privledge to work on a timberframe. Post and beam building is not very common hear in the midwest ( Chicago suburbs ). Like I said before, I feel its going to be a hard sell at village hall. How did it go for you?
I live in a community where you need to dot all the i's and cross all of the T's they reject most building permit requests and those that do get approved need tons of documentation/ paper work..
I went in with a DIY drawing of my plans that had no details spelt out.. just size and material..
There is no way on gods earth you could ever build a house from those plans (unless you're the kinda guy who looks at an ad in a magazine and starts...)
First ever whole house! the other work I've done in the past was always repair type work..
The one advantage I had is I had spent a great deal of time studing the UBC (uniform building code) and commited anything regarding timberframes to memory..
then I bought a book..
Timber construction manual by the American institute of timber construction ($120.00) studied it untill I felt fairly confident. (used post-its to mark what I felt were relavent sections)
When I went in the building inspector was intrigued. he'd never seen one. didn't know anything about them there were a few timbers used in a couple of hybred homes but no real timber frames.
Just to show you how rare they are, I sell construction equipment (Last 12 years)and visit new homes all day every day sometimes as many as 5 or six a day.. In addition I tour the papred of new homes every spring and fall 1000 plus new model homes.. (looking for business)
I have never ever seen another timber frame home.. never!
any way I digress,
the building inspector was impressed enough to grant me the permit.. He's since toured the place and had nothing but praise.
As for cutting the joints, etc. it's not rocket science but very time consuming.. do not ever get ahead of yourself.. do one bent at a time one joint at a time, trial fit everything. If a joint isn't working ... nut's with it, do it over! woods cheap! it's the labor that makes the home expensive.
I did make a standard mortice pocket and a standard tenion to trial fit everything with.. It's much easier to take a small chunk of wood to check then haulling a big timber and putting it together. measure about 16 times before you make your first cut.. each measurement should be a differant way but come up with the same number....each time!
As for engineering,, well I took a differant approach. I did the calculations and stood back and wondered how I'd feel about that size.. the numbers that would work were much less than the sizes I wanted to use.. I found a whole new definition of over kill.. I honestly doubt that railroad bridges are as sturdy. Like I said wood is cheap, so over build! (don't for gods sake buy your wood at a lumberyard go directly to the sawmill) lots of them up in Wisconsin.. don't go too small or too large and make certain they are selling you the wood at fair prices (ask, I'll help)
Thank you so much, looks like I got my work cut out for me! Where, if I may ask are you located? Did you get your timber in Wisc.? Petey
I'm in Mpls. (just west on Lake Minnetonka) Minnesota so I'm about 400 hours away.. With a little speeding I can get to Palatine in 7 hours..
There are a lotta mills around La Crosse and evan around Prairie Du Chen, but I'd look closer to Chicago you should be able to get some good prices around Beloit or Monroe.
I love Mn. Spent some time up in Duluth this past summer. Funny, We can make it to Duluth in 7 hrs. with a little lead and I'm in Downers Grove, Thanks again Petey
Frenchy,
Sorry, I just finished writing a novel in another post and was kind of tired of hearing myself write. I'm also a relative newbie to the forum so I've been trying to steer clear of controversial topics. If you've checked out the archives you probably know, SIPS are a controversial topic around here. Oh well, here I go anyway. :-)>
I live in central Texas, doing a two story, open floorplan house about 2,400 square feet- 4 1/2" panels on the walls, 6 1/2" panels on the roof. Why R-Control? two reasons stand out:
#1) Thad Chambers: Thad is the rep I have been dealing with in Kerrville. Hands down, some of the best customer service I've ever received. I'm driving down there this weekend and he is meeting me between his kid's basketball games on Saturday morning to go over the latest revisions in my design. He has never failed to return any of my numerous phone calls and always takes time to answer my questions until I am full up with wisdom. This is my first SIP house- I've got a feeling I'm going to need that kind of support. Chapman Building Systems (830) 792-5050
#2) Perform Guard EPS: R-control is the only panel I'm aware of using Perform Guard EPS. This foam uses a natural mineral additive that is resistant to termites. While termites don't eat foam, they do like to nest in it. I had another rep tell me that such additives weaken the foam's adhesion to the OSB and to an extent that's true. The thing is- even with a slightly weaker bond the UL pull-apart tests on R-Control panels prove indisputably that the bond strength is still something like 100 times more than what is required. Not an issue.
As I've already pointed out, some people on this forum have strong feelings and trepidations about the panels. All I can say is, the numbers that matter are in total disagreement with them. For what it's worth- if someone out there is just salivating at the mouth over the opportunity to lay into another newbie, starry eyed SIP lover- I've probably already read your previous posts on the forum.
Still, if others want opposing views, a quick search through the archives will yield them. In fact, I would go so far as to encourage the pursuit of opposing ideas- I certainly did. Balanced research is worth far more than anything I've got to say. Having offered that disclaimer, let me cover what I perceive are the primary concerns that usually come up.
The DANGEROUS off gassing:
I admit, the OSB in the panels does off-gas. After the OSB is formed and the formaldehyde cures for about 24 hours it is approximately equivalent to the formaldehyde off-gassed by an apple. Most other forms of wood construction off gas at least as much as SIPS. Again, not an issue.
Structurally inadequate:
I've heard it said, "I'm not relying on a couple of sheets of OSB for structural integrity." SIPS are so much more than a couple of sheets of OSB but whatever- It is not an issue!
Unproven:
A common misconception is that panels are a new, un-proven technology. Panels have actually been around since the 50's and excel in every single test out there. A little known fact is that Frank Lloyd Wright, an architect of some renown, may have been the first to develop and use SIPS.
Problems in the past:
There have been SIP failures for a number of reasons over the years just like there have been in every other form of construction under the sun. Most of them were due to improper construction. Points of failure have always been effective lessons in improving the materials and methods we build with. I believe that whatever deficiencies were present in the past, they have been dealt with. Well, with the possible exception of improper construction methods. A crew here in Abilene recently used a router to rip a channel through the face of several panels on a friend's house. They were installing the electrical wires. Never mind that the panels had integrated wiring chases! It was faster and besides, they had done it on several ICF jobs. All I can say is that such ignorance is not limited to SIP crews.
More likely to end up with "sick house" syndrome:
Another uninformed fear is that SIPS are too tight- you will end up with a moldy house. I had Richard Rue with Energy Wise Structure in Mansfield, Texas do a thorough energy analysis on my design and give me the mechanical loads for my HVAC contractor. Everyone in town wanted to put 5 to 6 tons of air conditioning in the house- it's only going to need 3 1/2 tons. Everybody in town wanted to turn the air over in the house several times an hour to prevent sick house syndrome- HA! Everybody in town needs a lesson or two in HVAC design for SIP houses.
Don't let an HVAC contractor who is unfamiliar with SIPS design your system. You will end up with a moldy house and will never realize the benefits of the superior insulation that panels provide. It cost me about $300 to get a competent engineer to do the job right. I saved that in getting the smaller units right off the bat. Richard has done thousands of SIP and ICF house energy calculations and has a very, very long list of satisfied customers. Highly recommend him- He is one of the best in the industry. (817) 477-1387
Cost too much:
Finally, the concern about cost. SIP contractors are in short supply but not as short a supply as just a few years ago. The materials cost a little more up front (between 2% and 15% depending on design and location) but, as more and more contractors are becoming familiar with the technology, labor costs are dropping dramatically. Whatever the cost, if it's done right, building a SIP home will almost always return dividends through energy savings in the long run. Adding $15/month to a mortgage payment to save $100/ month in energy bills is smart. Even without the energy savings, many HO's are beginning to find it cheaper to build with SIP's than conventional framing. They are certainly getting a superior wall for their money whatever their reason. I predict that if current trends continue, SIPS will be far less expensive to build with in a few years. Far less expensive...
Guys who are sold on SIPS talk too much:
Good grief- another novel. I need some help! Anyway, here's the deal in a nutshell. I make no claim to be the end all expert on SIPS but I have looked at panels through a microscope for months. I plan to be in this home for a long time and would not be using them if there were any reason to have reservations. Stick framing does not compare in any test, under any load, on any continent, in any way. Fire resistance, wind sheer, point load capacity... whatever. It is a proven, superior form of construction- period! I wish more contractors would give them the consideration they deserve. Stick framing ain't what it used to be- it's time to consider some better ideas.
Ok, now that I've gotten that SIP off my shoulder, tell me a little about your home. How is it going so far? Any snags I should be aware of? I would like to see some pic's if you're far enough along.
Kevin Halliburton
Kevin,
Son, you're preachin' to the choir! Hell if it ain't a timber frame it dang sure otta be a SIP. anything less is stupid!
As for my reason to use R-control, it's everything you mentioned plus it's less than a half hour from my house to the plant..
Are you planning on running your panels horizontal or vertical? I thought vertical would be the best way but now I wish I'd run them horizontal. The advantage of doing it that way is instead of figuring out how to squeeze the panels together with bar clamps and blocks of wood you can use gravity to do that..
second, don't buy the expensive splines from R-control Buy plywood and cut them yourself.. much cheaper and a lot stronger!. plus many of my splines got wet during last falls rains and they swelled up a bunch and became darn near impossible to install.. I finally solved the problem by running them thru the planner.
As far as strength goes, do this test!
Make a small stick built house (say dog house size) then make one the same size but with SIPs jump up and down on the stick built and it will collaspse. do the same to a SIP house and you will tire yourself out before any damage is done.. actual tests show it to be as much as 200% stronger. (r-control claims only 68% stronger)
my actual test was last fall. I made a mistake and because it was late and gettting dark I kept missing it.. anyway I was trying to get two panels together to slide the spline in and nail off. Since I'd already du-alled them it was important to get them together before the glue dried.
I wound up nudgeing them with the construction forklift.. Ok a nudge won't work, how about a tap, OK a bigger tap and finally I lost it.. In a rage I was ramming the corner of the house at full speed with a 20,000 pound forklift at full throttle. A regular stick built house would have been a pile of splinters. mine didn't evan budge!! My buddy on the second floor could hear me ramming and feel the vibration but nothing and I do mean nothing budged.
(I fixed my mistake when I calmed down and everything slide together nicely.)
I'm a first time DIY timberframer/SIP builder. It does take a lot longer to build with than stick building if it's the first time for you, but the quality of the house is much better than stick built.
I didn't run the wires in the SIPS, I bought a groove cutting tool and ran the wires behind the timbers or thru the floor.. it gave me a lot more flexability. Same with the plumbing..
As for pictures there are some already posted here, early last summer when just the west wing was done.. I'm camera phobic and not capable of taking pictures (long boring story)
anyway My house is a timberframe, actuually a double timber frame since I use Black walnut timbers on the outside and white Oak timbers on the inside.. (the panels are in between.. when finished it will be about 5000 sq.ft. and I designed, spec'ed and built the house my self with a little part time help.
the roof pitch on the west wing is 27/12 while that over the great room is a 17/12
My house is a Structural Insulated Panel design, not a timber frame like yours, so it is critical that I run my panels vertical. If you put a horizontal seam in a SIP it quickly becomes an IP. Some manufacturers make panels wider than 8'-0" but not the R-control plant in Kerrville. Since my downstairs walls are 9'-0" tall, vertical is my only option.
My splines will be dimensional lumber. I felt that I needed the solid blocking at 4'-0" on center for my masonry veneer ties and IMHO D.L. is much easier to work with than OSB splines. One little known trick with SIPs is that many panel manufacturers will add blocking inside panels for you as they are putting them together if you just ask. The catch is that the blocking needs to be LVL to insure that it is straight and true enough to avoid interfering with the manufacturing process. This is a good idea for places like cabinets or unusually high point loads. It will usually only add the cost of the LVL to the panel since it is very easy to do in the manufacturing process.
Another trick I'm using is on my two foot eve overhangs. Most people will either spend a lot of money to extend their panels all the way to the fascia or will go to a lot of additional trouble to stick frame the overhangs. I'm stopping my panels at the wall and running my dimensional lumber splines long to form my overhang. This will make for a much more rigid and affordable overhang that will better resist uplift.
My thanks to Thad Chambers for both of those tips. I'm telling ya'- best customer service I've ever seen!
Now about your test methods- probably very effective but the UL lab already did all the testing I needed to see using slightly more convincing criteria. :-)> Them tempers can sho'-nuff get expensive! Glad to hear your panels took all you could dish out and then some. Tornados and hurricanes have done a good bit of unofficial testing on panels too. I'm sold! They are plenty solid!
You may get a kick out of knowing that you got to me with your "groove cutting tool." I got all swelled up and red in the face before I realized you were grooving the timbers, not the panels. I had flashbacks to the ICF crew that carved up the panels on my friends house to run their wires. You could probably get away with it on your timber frame but his was a pure SIP. The house was built out of city limits with no inspections. They would have had the rock on the walls with no one the wiser if I hadn't stopped by to see how it was going. Makes me shudder!
Sounds like you are putting together a beauty there! Wish I had your budget! :-)> I would like to just touch a black walnut timber some time to see what it actually feels like. Man, I bet that looks nice. Hook me up with the link to those photo's will ya?
Kevin Halliburton
I'm embaressed to admit that the cheapest wood I could buy at the time was Black walnut @ 17 cents a bd. ft.
I really splurged buying the white Oak at 30 cents a foot..
all the wood it takes to do a 5000 sq ft house was $18,000 bucks (lotta cherry/ hard maple and a thousand feet of burl!)
since it's local I just used the company truck to pick it up and other than a couple of tanks of fuel it was free!
Those prices are un-believable to me! I don't think I could touch a black walnut timber here in TX for less than $3.50 a board foot and that is with a deal. Maybe I need to do some more looking around. They don't make too many timbers out of mesquite bushes so our local supply of timber wood is pretty limited. Shipping is probably what puts them up there in that price range.
Now come on- where's that photo link?Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
the standard rate per loaded mile is around a buck a loaded mile.. get someone with an empty flatbed doing a back haul and you could get it cheaper..
If you loaded say 16,000 bd.ft. on a semi and drove to Dalllas It would cost you less than a grand..
There's a timberframe being built down there with white oak outta here.....
as for the photo link I just had it a month or so ago, David Doud found it for me, (it was orignally posted late last summer from a picture taken early in the spring.. ) I've looked myself but forgot what it's posted under...
Always loved Timberframes and when we decied to build a new house it was the only choice.
Here's a few pictures of mine along with a view out the front window.
Robert
Cool, who built your frame? is that fir?
Fellow by the name of Dan Collar, one man shop he's been doing Timber frames the last 8 years, did log homes before that.
There's a bit of a story about our frame. We had talked to him about cutting us a frame but decided that we couldn't afford it. About 6 months later he called to tell us he had a frame he had cut but the lady who had him do it couldn't get financing and therefore couldn't finish paying for it. She told him to sell it for what she still owed him and he started calling people he had been talking to about frames. We were the first on his list and decided to junp on it. We had himn make some changes like adding the hammerbeam on the first bent as well as expanding the first bent size by 10 feet as it was origianlly designed to be for an outside deck.
Frame is Doug Fir, out here anything else would cost an arm and BOTH legs. We also have some White Spruce we took off a friends lot which we are milling into timbers for the entrance way.
My wife and I worked this summer with Dan erecting the frame, quite an experience putting a bent together and then hoisting into place with his truck. You were always looking at it and wondering if the thing was going to come apart dangling in the air. But he knew what he was doing.
Robert
I know what that's like, I used the 56 foot forklift with a 12 foot jib on it to get the roof trusses in place and since those trusses were around 2200 pounds and almost 70 feet in the air dangeling by one strap lifting each one into place caused my heart to go pitter patter a lot..
then when the strap broke... aw, but you aren't interested .....
Frenchy photos, (sometimes the search works)
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=25154.2
thank you, now if some fool would wander by and risk his camera for an update.....
We have tried everything short of that. ;-)
Those pictures don't do it justice, shoot a roll and send the doubles, I 'll send you back Breaktime worthy shots. It isn't rocket science to post them, and you are killing us...
I could eventually figure out how to post if I had some pictures.
I think I've explained my problem with camera's , but since it's not done yet, I keep thinking, "well, next week I'll have this done and then I'll take some pictures"... Only trouble is when next week rolls around I think about, "oh, I'll wait untill that is done and.....".
Kevin, that wasn't a novel, just a short story! Thanks for all the info .....Petey
I also am planning on constructing a timber frame house. This will be in the Columbia Gorge about 60 miles east of Portland, OR. This is an area that will be swept in the future by a brush/forest fire. Not a matter of if, but of when it will happen. No fire hydrants in the area - although there is a lot of water about a half mile north in the Columbia River. EPS is not exacatly a fire barrier, and OSB burns hotter than regular wood. Although I will be using cement board for an exterior surface, I am still somewhat concerned about the ability of the structure to stand up to a roaring fire if I use SIPS. One of the main reason that I want to do timber frame is because of the fire rating of 6" or larger timbers. I realize that to make a decent looking house, as well as one that is feasible to construct, I will need some flammable material to be included in the house.
On their FAQ page at http://199.2.132.200/domains/afp/html/faq_sips.html the issue of fire and SIPS is discussed but I am not completely convinced that SIPS are the best materials for a fire resistant house. Any thoughts, arguments, flames, etc., on the subject will be appreciated.
If you have a fire that creates a problem for your panels, your house would be toast anyway. No fire fighter will get on the roof of a house on fire that he knows is sheathed with OSB because the glue weakens when it is exposed to a really hot open flame making them susceptible to collapse.
Why is that not an issue for SIPs? One reason is because if you build with SIPs according to code both OSB faces will be covered. The other advantage is that the integrity of the panels depends on the sandwich of two OSB panels bonded to a foam core. By the time the full panel is breached a single panel stick framed structure will already be a pile of ashes. The exposed OSB sheathing in the vented attic space of a stick framed house is a fire's favorite food. It is not necessary to vent a properly designed and constructed attic space that is sheathed with SIPs so even if you leave the bottom of the panels exposed in the attic you are still at an advantage because you are limiting the other food fire needs- oxygen.
The biggest advantage SIPs have in a fire is that they have no voids, cavities or open seams. Sip walls are solid so there is no path for fire to travel and no oxygen for fire to feed on. Sip houses are also tight enough that interior fires have a hard time finding the oxygen they need to really get out of hand- that is unless several doors and windows are left open. The UL tests show that fires in SIP structures, with the doors and windows closed, tend to flash to about 2000 degrees, just like they do in more conventional framing, but within a couple of minutes they exhaust the supply of oxygen and die out on their own with no damage to the panels at all. Yes, you can burn a SIP house down but any fire that will destroy a SIP house will destroy a conventionally framed house much more quickly.
I would suggest a masonry veneer for your situation. By the way, Fiber Cement siding qualifies as a masonry veneer with my insurance company and it resists fire well. There are some tricks to using that heavy of a siding on SIPs but your panel manufacturer will be able to tell you how to address them.
Honestly, with what you are telling me about your situation, I would suggest either tilt up concrete walls or SIPs, depending on your budget. The fact that I'm relying on a volunteer fire department myself was one of the biggest reasons I chose SIPs. They are some of the best fire insurance you can buy.
Hope this helps alleviate some of your concerns.
Kevin Halliburton
do the test yourself..
Buy a panel, cut it up, make the test corner, build a fire and see..
If that doesn't convince you then could I suggest a concrete house?
Or if you call R- control they well send you a video of the same thing..
I'm building one now! I use R- control because they've addressed the issue and I'm satisfied.. Now the only off gasssing is what ever the OSB panels themselves emit. Since just about every home made nowdays uses OSB and the emmision of out gasses has not been noted I believe that it is a non issue..
Now if you are hyper sensitive to off gassing in any form, then I caution you, the simple act of raw wood will off gas some. Cedar and pine seem to be noteably aromatic with their off gassing and could bother certain highly sensitive individuals.
In my mind the greenest possible home you can build is a timberframe with proper SIP constrction..