I have got 2 jobs running right now that have eaten a fair amount of my money.
One due to customer not having their stuff onsite in time and multiple changes of mind.
The other due to a colossal supplier stuff up that I got caught in the middle of.
With the first, I am charging for extra work and will add in what it cost me in wasted time etc. that one will work out OK.
The second is harder. The customer isnt at fault, I didnt supply any of the items to be fitted, I am merely the installer/carp/ etc.
However, while the mess gets sorted ( a month so far ) I am out for materials, repeat trips for my subs, pay for my guy, 2 days of my time and so it goes.
I cant charge the customer cos its not her fault and I dont have anything in the contract that will allow it in any case.
I will be pursuing the supply outfit who created the mess and see what I get out of them.
What I DO need is a clause in the contract that means if ( more like when ) this happens again, the customer gets charged and they can take it out of whoever.
I strongly suspect that if the customer is screaming at them they will move it a lot faster than they have for me.
These situations are always due to a problem between the customer and the supplier of items they ordered, or the customer changing their mind at the last minute. Either way it isnt my doing so I am not prepared to get hammered for the down time any more.
If anyone has such a thing in use already and doesnt mind sharing I would be glad to see it.
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
Replies
I will be pursuing the supply outfit who created the mess and see what I get out of them.
Please let us know how that works for you, I for one would be currious to see the outcome of that.
Doug
That can dead end fast..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
well, a senior dude in there right off said they should compensate me cos it was their mistake.
The manager mumbled.......'well....we need to.....aaahhh.....ummm.....do something....aahh.....about that.......mumble'
I heard it just fine, so if it now all gets ignored I wont be impressed and the firefight could get ugly.
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
I wasn't clear about your first post. Was the second situation your order or the HOs order?
If it was your order and the supplier screwed up, I doubt any contract clause would would cover you. The HO may pay rather than litigate, or may just tell you where to shove it, but either way you'd get a very PO'd HO who was being told to pay for someone else's mistake.
On the other hand, if the HO ordered the stuff (unless he did so at your request or used your choice of supplier), then he takes the risk of problems and covers your costs.
This type of clause is all about allocating the risk of third party problems. As for going after the third party for consequential damages, that's a hit or miss situation. Most of the time, they'll tell you to take a hike as their risk is limited to the cost of good sold, not your time lost.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
so how does a reasonably bullet proof clause read...
without getting "ignorant"???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 10/9/2006 7:55 am by IMERC
bullet proof? anything else you'd like with your martini?
how about resistant??
caffine...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hell, I'm not unreasonable.
I will take one thats airtight.
<G>
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
I tried this reply twice last night....they are still orbiting cyberspace somewhere.
I do not/didnt supply or order anything.
The customer went to the showroom, chose her stuff after consultation with the staff there, placed an order and paid for it.
The supplies people delivered all of it to her house.
I show up to do the carp work, arrange subs, supply building materials only. Thats why I am not impressed about being caught in the middle of this.
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
Customer-supplied goods are, unfortunately, a reality we've had to learn to deal with - the hard way. We now include a written disclaimer assigning all responsibility for lost time, dealing with defects, products that won't work or fit in a given application or space and that we'll be more than happy to pick up the items and/or retun them while charging for the time involved. Misc. materials utilized in an attempted installation that must be replaced, for replacing the defective product, are also billed on T&M. It also says - in bold type - that we provide no warranty on any materials not purchased through our firm and that includes the labor as well. In addition, given the poor quality of some products sold cheaply (gee, there's a shock!), we included a sentence indicating we will not be responsible if the product breaks during its installation.
I also include a paragraph detailing the benefits they receive by purchasing the marked-up goods from our firm. Most folks quickly grasp the concept that they're rolling the dice if they bypass us for purchasing materials.
They must sign & date it just as they do any contractural document. We recaptured about 60% of the previously lost material sales.
I decided enough was enough the day a customer insisted we take her defective faucet back to the big box store, deal with the freckle-faced kid for the return hassle and install the replacement - all at no additional charge! Thinking an anology might work, I asked her the following: If you purchased motor oil at the local mini-mart, took it to a garage, had them install same, found out later it was defective oil - would you expect the garage to fix your car for free? "Of course I would.", she replied. Call that the straw that broke this camel's back. Ignorance can be fixed - stupid is permanent & I was determined to find a way to deal with this kind of stupidity.
do you have a true copy of this statement(s) as you hace it worded..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
YesIf you'd like a copy, e-mail me your fax # & I'll send it next week (it's at the office).
If the customer supplied a big "box" of stuff and asked you to install and the box had stuff missing then you or charge for the problem fixing.
If you supplied the 'box" of stuff then you eat it and fix it! Good luck with the supplier! Not your supplier then not your problem (unless you get paid).
Thats the way I see it............BUT, i this case the problem lies squarely with the supplier. Customer had nothing to do with it.
Charging her dosent feel right. I cant charge her even if I wanted to.....nothing in writing that will allow me to do so.
There wont be a next time..............next time the customer WILL be charged and THEY can slug it out with the supplier.
The supplier is an outfit that I have worked hard to develop a good relationship with. If they wont support me with this.....then things are gonna get frosty and come right down to hard business. No doing favours, eating small costs, going the extra mile.......will become more like 'show me the money'.
Not the way I want to be, but I got costs like everyone else........
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
way to go...
be mercenary..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 10/9/2006 11:54 pm by IMERC
Bottom line is.....we all are.
Its not like there are a whole bunch of us that go to work and do this just cos we get the warm fuzzies from being conned, lied to, manipulated, ignored, screwed and cheated......PLUS get to work really hard in a physically demanding job providing top quality for the treasured customer..................is it?
well I aint seen one anyway.........
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
have had several cherised cutomers...
too bad CYA has become such an important line item..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
For the cherished few.....I will go the extra mile, drop stuff and be running before it hits the ground etc.
For the others.........all are guilty until they prove innocent
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
Thats the way I see it............BUT, i this case the problem lies squarely with the supplier. Customer had nothing to do with it.
To me it seems that part of the problem is that you are having a problem separating your problems from the client's. The client choose the supplier correct? Even if aliens came from outer space and jacked the order it is still the problem of the client to supply you with materials.
It's simply a matter of risk. You are taking on the client's risk and accepting the resultant decrease in income. It's like finding hidden structural damage and fixing it for free because it wasn't the fault of the client's, who bought the house unaware of the damage.
Your problems shouldn't include those items out of your control. Do you not feel right charging the same price if your client fails to get a christmas bonus, has a cut in pay, gets divorced in the middle of a job or has to have the engine in their porche replaced? Those risks are solely on the client.
Well, I'm sure my contracts aren't "bulletproof" by any means, but I have two clauses that I think might help get you started writing yours, AJ. I'll cut and paste them in. They are two seperate paragraphs in my standard bid and t&m contracts. Feel free to hack away.
Materials - ASW Co. will supply all materials for this job. All materials left onsite will remain property of ASW Co. and any left over after job is completed will be disposed of at the discretion of ASW Co.<!----><!----><!---->
Any exceptions to this clause will be in writing, and there will be no warranty on any materials supplied by buyer, during installation, or after<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Unproductive trips - If ASW Co. does not have access to the work area (in the case of ASW Co not having a key) or is unable to work because the buyer failed to clear the work area of personal belongings, or if work to be completed by the buyer or trades not under the control of ASW Co. is not completed, the buyer agrees to pay for such an unproductive trip at the regular hourly rate.Who's the cat that won't cop out, when there's danger all about?
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Thanks Jim, they are of help.
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
yesterday had a concrete pour at 1am finisher change the time to 4am without telling nobody. Electrician, plumbers, surveyors, pump truck, super and myself was there. Guess who got that bill for those three hours. I, myself bill out at $120 hour. finisher did not take much money home that day.
I agree totally.
Up till now I have worked on the premise that if it isnt the customers fault, somebody has to get it sorted out, and it is often faster and less costly to me to get on the phone and make it happen right away.
Irritating yes, but still better than waiting for the culprit to get on it.
Until now.......
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
You are right to try and get things straight. It's the right thing to do, but I know what you're feeling once the goodwill has run out. The wacky clients make us wonder why we're in this business.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I would suggest you consider using an AIA or ACG type contracts. Both cover this type of event without any special additional forms.The bottom line is that if the customer supplies the plans and supplies, and there are errors, delays, or changes, you have a right to extend the time and increase the price, or walk off the job.Just use an AIA or ACG type contract, and your covered.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
No way would I sign a contract accepting the risk of YOUR supplier screwing up. Nor will I give you carte blanch on charging me for problems for things I supply. If it is broken, you better identify it fast and inform me. Not start driving around, doing whatever you like and then claim that it is my cost because you were trying to fix my supplies.
Good points!
If I arrange for the items its my problem to sort and get it fixed.
If someone else arranges for the items to be ready on xx/xx/xxxx my only problem is to be ready at that time. but it would not be fair to go off on my own and fix and sort without a meeting of minds for the troubles!
Extra pricing has to be kept in check and fair and open to avoid upsets.
Been there a few times with some having little reguard for my time and calander. Hey! I got lots to do!!
Its not MY supplier.....its the customers.
THEIR supplier refers work to me. They cant complete a sale unless the customer can find someone to do the work. Its a relationship that benefits all.
I get the referral, the customer gets the names of trusted people, the suppliers make the sale.
As for carte blanch on fixing problems.....that has never been the intention. All I want to do is A) Make it VERY clear that selection, supply, quality etc of goods to be installed is ENTIRELY their responsibilty.
If I was going to go into the supply side of things I would add a markup to cover my time and liabilty. I dont supply, but seem to be getting stuck with the liability end of things.
B) The customer will be told up front that charges will be made in the event of my time being used to make a problem go away.
The customer will be told immediately of the problem and given the options regarding a solution. How they proceed is their choice. If they want me to wait while they fix, fine....I charge.
If they want me to fix.....fine, I charge
If they want me to go away and then come back while it gets fixed.....fine, there will be a charge for the extra trip out, recall of subs etc.
If they in turn want to recover the extra costs from the supplier due to a stuff up on their part, their choice.
Try booking an appointment with a doctor or something and then not show up. You pay. That time slot could have been used by someone who would show up, not to mention the lost income. They wont lose money just cos you cant arrange your life......so why should I?
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
Just for good measure, here is the general terms and conditions page attached to all of my contracts.... (I wrote this myself so am not exactly certain of the legalities et al)
DEFINITIONS: The “contractor†refers to Central Diversified Contracting LLC, it’s officers, employees and subcontractors.
The “customer†refers to the party or parties for whom worked is being performed by the contractor.
1. Products: The contractor, at his discretion, reserves the right to make changes or substitutions to any or all products, finishes designs and techniques specified for use in the contract where he deems so necessary. Such changes or substitutions shall be made with products, finishes or techniques of reasonably equal value or quality. Where specific brands, types or qualities of materials are not specified, the contractor will make all selections or must approve such selections where made by others. No approvals from any other parties are required for the contractor to make changes as specified above.
2. Scheduling: Scheduling for all projects will be set by the contractor. Changes to or delays in scheduling may be made by the contractor without notice when deemed necessary by the contractor. Influences such as customer scheduling conflicts, supply delays, adverse weather conditions, or other means which may cause substantial delays to the timely completion of this project may cause, where the contractor deems necessary, the contractor to engage in other contractual work for other parties, therefore delaying the continuation of work on this contract until other obligations have been fulfilled. Furthermore, contracted work beginning during a delay of another contract may be postponed at any time in order to complete ongoing contracts elsewhere. Scheduling, postponement and continuation of contracts will be arranged at the contractor’s discretion.
3. Non-scheduled delays: No delays to the progress of the contractor may be caused by the customer and/or his affiliates, associates or subcontractors unless such delays are first approved by the contractor.
4. Additional materials: All additional materials of any nature, relative to the contract work and supplied by the contractor or his affiliates, associates or subcontractors, will remain the property of the contractor when not used in the project execution.
5. Utilities: All utilities and necessities such as but not limited to electricity, water, gas and heat are to be supplied by the customer as and when needed by the contractor, at the customer’s expense for the duration of the project.
6. Access: Ready, unobstructed access shall be provided to the work site for the contractor, his affiliates, associates and subcontractors at all times. The work areas shall be free of hindrances and hazardous materials and situations imposed by those other than the contractor, his affiliates, associates or subcontractors. The work site should remain reasonably secure in the absence of the contractor so that others do not enter the site. The customer may only enter the site at their own risk with the understanding that there are a great many conditions and dangers which may cause damage, injury, serious injury or death. Any and all damages caused or allowed by the customer or others not explicitly authorized by the contractor to enter the work site are the full responsibility of the owner. Ample space will be provided to the contractor by the homeowner for the secure storage of materials and equipment at the job location.
7. Payment: Payments are to be made as directed in the contract. Any and all late payments are subject to monthly late fees of the greater of either $25 or 1%, of the amount past due, per month, beginning on the date due and continuing on the same day of each following month until the debt is satisfied. These same outstanding balances will also be subject to financing charges at the rate of 24% per annum compounded daily. If such outstanding debts are not satisfied within a reasonable amount of time, legal action will be taken. All expenses related to the collection of an outstanding debt shall be charged to the customer and will become either an addition to the existing debt or a separate debt at the contractor’s discretion. All payments, in the form of check or money order, are to be made payable to “Central Diversified Contractingâ€.
8. Changes to contract: All changes, being requested by the customer, must be submitted in writing to the contractor and signed or agreed to in a form of written verification by all parties of the original contract. Such change orders must include a description of the change in the original contract as well as the amount of compensation for the changes. These change orders are subject to all the terms and conditions of the original contract. The contractor may make, without notification, changes to plans relative to the contract where such changes are deemed necessary by the contractor.
9. Excavation and construction: Where impediments exist, bearing on the progress of work by the contractor, such impediments are to be removed or relocated at the expense of the customer. Such impediments are most typically but not limited to utility lines, cable lines and supply lines both above and below ground as well as natural unforeseen obstructions such as solid rock or large boulders below ground which must be excavated or removed and disposed of. Typical ground excavation assumes the removal of soil, clay, sand, and manageable rocks and should be of no additional cost to the customer.
10. Debris and waste: The contractor agrees to remove all contract related debris and waste from the site and dispose of properly unless stated otherwise in the contract. Any garbage not produced by the contractor must be removed and disposed of by the customer at the customer’s expense. The contractor cannot dispose of any hazardous materials, appliances or general refuse unless otherwise agreed to in the contract.
11. Permits, bonds and insurance: Permits, bonds and insurance shall be provided by the contractor and are included in the contract price unless stated otherwise in the contract.
12. Non-compliance: Non-compliance, by the customer, with this contract or it’s terms or conditions as provided herein may result in one or more of the following: the delay of work, incompletion of contract by contractor, additional fees being assessed to the contract by the contractor and / or the termination of the contract by the contractor.
13. Cancellations: Once signed, the cancellation of this contract by the customer may result in a penalty of 25% of the total contract price plus any expenses incurred by the contractor where the cancellation is committed without the agreement of the contractor to do so. The contractor may cancel this contract prior to commencement of work and return to the customer any monies deposited with the contractor for this contract by the customer. In the case of the contractor canceling this contract for non-compliance with it’s terms and conditions, the contractor will return to the customer the balance of money deposited with or paid to the contractor less any amount for work performed, materials supplied, expenses incurred and penalties assessed.
I (we) have read and fully understand the terms and conditions of this contract and understand that they do apply to all work performed by the contractor for the undersigned customer unless specified otherwise in writing:
http://www.petedraganic.com/