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I do a lot of smaller commercial jobs where only 3 or 4 employees might be working at a time. What measures do any of you take for verifying times in and out. I had thought about using a time clock from location to location for this reason. The problem is that too many of the guys have differing ideas of when they left the same job at the same time. For instance, 5:34 is construed as anything from 5:30 to 7:00. Usually closer to the latter.
Thanks for the input,
Pete Draganic
[email protected]
Replies
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Pete,
This seems to be a common occurrence for me too. One way to approach this problem is to have them work 7/24 then they can't steal wages (joking!). For me, accurate time keeping is the most accurate indicator of loyalty and honesty. It is also the most easy to track in the beginning of an employment relationship. I reward it highly early on and get rid of dishonest time keepers.
Hey, its your money.
Generous but not stupid,
Tom
*For me, personally, this issue is spiritual and the answer is " Thou shalt not steal".I have found that to mean, in this business as with any other, that if the job starts at 7:00am, then I am supposed to be there at 6:30am.The last ten or fifteen minutes of the day is cleanup. And , Fair Labor Standards Act breaktimes apply.My friend Phillip, at D&D Construction in San Francisco, uses motion detectors. I think that is fair. The workers complained they should have been warned...Hope this helps.
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I seem to have the same problem with some guys not tracking their time. I have noticed that the bettr employes track their time more accuratly than others.
I would like to hear some good ideas for good time keeping.
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To answer your question: I schedule to be there, in person, in the afternoon, at an hour unknown to my workers. Think of it as babysitting.
I also use that time to actually look at what has been done, and how well. I learned this the hard way: I once walked onto the job and saw that about one hours worth of work had been done. When I confronted the worker and his helper, they wanted to know what was the problem. I canned the lying thieves right there.
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I deplore time clocks as a matter of principle, along with motion detectors, video surveillance and pissing in jars. My policy is to treat anyone who works for me with respect and trust, until they give me a reason not to (at which point they're gone -
b no excuses, no second chances
).
I've always had a problem with the standard labour practice of trading time for money. It tends to obscure the fact that what I (and the customer) am paying for is production not 'presence'. Be clear about what you expect to see accomplished by the end of the day, the week, etc. Expect some accountability from your people when these expectations aren't met.
Steven
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Steven I.,
Your comments here interest me.
I am trying to understand how I might be treated if I were an employee of yours. Or is it that your "employees" are "independent contractors"? Let us just call them workers.
Okay, and you correct me if my thinking is askew here please, so I come to your job and there is no time clock. And I am there to work.
So what happens now? Am I on the clock or are you selling me on the idea that what you and the customer want to see done is what I will be paid for?
Are you the kind of boss that comes by once in a while to check the progress of your expectations and then you will be gone so you can get another deposit because some bill is due? Or will you be readily available to help put out the many different "fires" that seem to pop up?
And then your "accountability" suggestion...
Just how might you make me "accountable" for not fullfilling your expectations when you finally come back to the job and four out of the ten things you indicated we could rely upon failed to materialize?
Time is a tradesman's stock-in-trade. That is it. And that is all. Accordingly, that is the measurement used, no matter the subterfuge designed.
I have heard many stories about "paying for production only". And your post seemed to be prefacing in that direction.
It is a touchy subject for me. I do not believe individuals should be allowed not to pay properly because they fail to plan efficiently.
I apologize if I misinterpret you.
Hope this helps.
*Alan,I, in turn, am also interested in your comments. I agree, as you said that "Time is a tradesman's stock-in-trade" but that is the extent of my agreement.I perform subcontract work as well as my own work so I know both sides of the street. My opinion is that if one wants to be paid by the hour then he is best suited to being an employee, as he is either looking for security, or lacks the expertise, motivation or entrepreneur skills to accurately predict the cost and time it will take to complete a given task with any degree of accuracy. I sympathise with this as I perform many different trades both commercially and residentially, and because every (EVERY!) job is different, there remains ample room for error. But this is what we as contractors do. Essentially we are gamblers, wagering that we can complete a given task at a certain cost and within a timeframe, utilizing the assets that we possess. This requires that whether you are a one man operation or one hundred, that each employee is aware of expected production and quality standards. In other words, you may work for me (payroll only, with the appropriate insurances provided by me) for eight hours or so every day, but you are being paid for completing a task(s) during that time, and not for just showing up. I expect only that an employee does his best. If his best doesn't make me money than I try to show him how he can. If that doesn't work then I can't you him. I still have a lot too learn but I can tell you this, I know with 90% certainty how long it takes 90% of the tradesman in a given trade to complete a given task allowing for 10% overage/underage. What I mean is that I and the contractors I work for have an idea how long something should take, that is why the prices I bid against are within a certain range of mine, say 10% over/under. Now if a tradesman is constantly hearing how long things take him then he may be slow. Maybe good too, but in this business, at least where I'm standing, you gotta be good AND fast. That's how you make money.I have found that for the most part, pay a guy hourly and that is what he works for, hours. Pay him by the job and then he works for money. You just have to be the right kind of guy to not sacrifice quality for speed. Anyway, you can have all that hourly stuff, I will give a set price and probably get the work, because most people want a set price to do the work. If I did my job right, then I will make my hourly wage and a profit for my company. The all will be right with the world.Its not complicated,Tom
*Very good points Steven; very good critique Alan. However, when I hire a guy, I am paying for his knowledge. He knows, among other things, not only how to complete the task at hand, but how to utilize the resources with which he is equipped. One of these happens to be time. He, then, is as much a manager of his time as I. A journeyman will be able to complete most of the tasks that fall within the normal scope of his trade. If he does not, there must exist some mitigating factor that does not allow for timely completion.Experience has taught me that this factor can be a lack of the proper attitude on his part. I am sometimes a sucker; often enough I have gone outside MY job description to "bring him along", know what I'm saying?As I realize I am dealing with a human being, I have compassion and sympathy. I care about those working for me as much as I do about the business at hand. I am not cold and indfferent toward them; I am, however, in business to make a profit.I can offer the makings of a job, but what I can't do is instill the responsibility that is incumbent upon any conscientious trademan. It is the responsibility of each individual to own up to what is commonly referred as "doing your best". Further, it is their accountability to this work ethic which is part and parcel to that which I make renumeration. As an employer it is not my duty to babysit those who have the habit of milking a job. If I have underestimated something required for the completion of the job--be it time, knowhow, tools, etc--it is my fault. That is not what this is about. Precisely, this is about management of resources. The tradesman is but one of those resources. I have tried, the Lord knows I have tried, to motivate, or otherwise excite various workers towards the goal. I am learning the lesson though; I cannot teach what should have been taught by their parents.
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To the clock watchers;
I work for a cost plus contracter that works on that basis because of the nature of the work that
we do and the level of excellence that is expected
from us. I have found that time clocks give me the freedom to have a lunch break that exceeds 30 minutes and not worry about having to write down and document every time that the work begins or ends. The time card also is a great place to put a brief description of what work was accomplished and how long certain tasks take to complete.
The few minutes that are lost or gained buy inaccurate or rounding off by non time clock
time keepers can turn into many hours over a years time when there are thirty or so employees
and can amount to a considerable amount of money.
I like the less legalistic attitude that the time clock affords to the employer and employee
alike.
I also have seen the people stand by the timeclock waiting for one more tick before they clock out. God calls them thieves. They will
reap what they sow.
brisketbean
*Alan,Thanks for the feedback, and let me clarify a few points.I am not suggesting that "employee accountability" should be used by employers to escape their payment obligations. An employee is entitled to the agreed-upon rate for the hours worked, no matter what. At the same time, however, an employer is entitled to expect a specific level of skill and speed relative to the agreed-upon rate of pay. I believe it is best for everyone if these expectations are clearly discussed and understood. If the work doesn't progress as expected due to an oversight on my part (insufficient materials, bad planning, etc.), I have no one to blame but myself. And I'm not above taking a little friendly flak from the guys when I have it coming.I have worked for a couple of bad contractors over the years - guys who consistently fail to do their homework then take it out on their employees , and I know how maddening that can be. Builders who operate this way will never be able to keep good employees or provide consistently good service to their customers. In the long run, the best deals are the ones where b nobodygets screwed.Excellent posts by Tom and Rich as well!best regards,Steven
*I have had the same situation occur to me in both the civilian world and the military.I have a method that works very well in both worlds. It is a matter of choosing your subordinate leaders or lead carpenters as well as rewards and penalties.Lets look at the first. If I cannot remain to supervise then I must have someone who is competant enough to handle the job on his own. If there is a problem that he can't handle, my cell phone is always on, Oh the wonder of modern technoligy. If I am not able to return to the job by the end of the normal work day the man I leave in charge is to call me. At this time I determine weather or not to work over or wrap up based on what work has been accomplished. I will find out the next morning any way so it doesn't pay for the lead man to lie. As a result for this added responsibility this man is paid higher than the other men on the job.As for rewarding my men this is on a case by case basis. The first is very easy. When I leave a job for whatever reason I talk with the lead man and discuss what I would like done for the day. As a personal rule I usually limit my expectations slightly. Example, If an x amount of work can be accomplished in say 4 hours while I am there then I leave the men 3-1/2 hours of work. I also let the men know that if they finish early then they can go early and I will pay them for the full time. This generally turns out getting the work done in 3 hours. I make it very clear though that if the work is not done or is incorrect then their pay will be docked. This goes back now to the lead man. He still has to call when he is ready to wrap up. This system works very well.As a manner of checking the integrity of my men I spot check their work on occasion after they have left for the day.The next thing I do is give the men a half hour on the clock on payday. At lunch on Wednessday they have an hour to take lunch. Half on them - half on me. This alows them the time to do some banking or whatever and thus aleviates some stress out of their personal lives. The return is a loyalty that is sometimes uncomon in this field. On payday when the men return their level of motivation is always high.Fridays at break I buy the coffee and donuts. On cold jobs there is a insulated cooler with coffee. The men's morall and belief that they are not just bodies is the most important factor in a job well done.In addition I always ask for input from my men. Who knows I could learn something. The next reward I have is at the end of a job. I am in business to make a proffit. I will share the wealth so to speek. I will give bonuses if the jobcomes in on time and under budjet.The only penalty I hav instituted as a policy but have rarely had to use is a method of docking a persons pay. I let all employees know this at the interview stage. If they don't agree to it then they don't get hired.The policy is simple. If you are late you have three chances. Chance 1- no pay for the time lost. Chance 2- No pay for one and a half the time missed. Chance 3- no pay for twice the time lost. After that you get your walking papers. This policy has one exception and one only, it is called a telephone. Refer back to the cell phone. I myself have two children and I have had problems happen to me that required time lost. If you call me all is forgiven as long as it doesn't become a habbit. I look at it this way, If an employee is responsible enough to pick up a phone and take 2 minutes then I will give him the flexibility and compassion necessary. If he isn't responsibile enough for that then he gets nothing.Hope this outlook gives you a different perspective.
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I do a lot of smaller commercial jobs where only 3 or 4 employees might be working at a time. What measures do any of you take for verifying times in and out. I had thought about using a time clock from location to location for this reason. The problem is that too many of the guys have differing ideas of when they left the same job at the same time. For instance, 5:34 is construed as anything from 5:30 to 7:00. Usually closer to the latter.
Thanks for the input,
Pete Draganic
[email protected]