Just because i seem to be getting the same types of calls lately,,, i was curious about how other contractors handle their “weeding” process. Bear in mind, this is not another thread on chargin’ for estimates, those are some good ones by the way, but instead about how do you keep from getting your time wasted. I’ve heard about what i think are larger scale operations “pre-screening” leads, but for any of the fellow small companies, where the contractor is actively involved on the site at least fifty percent of the time,,, how do you determine if someone is a waste of time before you get sucked into a detailed estimate, and then nothing. ‘Been gettin’ a slew of those lately. Got to wondering what the heck i’m doing wrong, or maybe the fish just aint bitin’. ‘Preciate any feedback, and please forgive the run’on sentences, i tend to be good at those when typing on the screen what is running through my mind at the moment.
j. jordan
Replies
J, it sounds like your a one man show. Wasting time will be your demise.
You gotta stay in control. You decide when your sales times are and you decide who your going to give your time to.
when I remodeled (I don't now), I'd do the basic phone interview....What kind of project (I'm quickly lookin to see if theres a fit.). What time frame are you interested in? (Why bother talking longer if they want something done in the same week I'm booked?). Who reffered you? yadda yadda yadda.
Just curious...what type of jobs are these? Are you city or rural?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
i'm rural, and most of the jobs are way off the beaten path. almost 99% are log homes, and it's been very slow lately. given out 20 or so estimates in the last couple of months and no bites. i call them back to find out what gives, for example, who did you decide to go with, and why, i try to fish out information like was the determining factor in not signing the price? all that stuff. half the time folks just have been gathering information and wanted a detailed estimate because ballparks were not good enough for them. when in actuality, they woulda been very close. problem is,,, folks just aint signing like they used to be. i'm thinkin of getting back to regular homes and maybe trying different marketing approaches to draw in smaller type jobs. i am a one man show to an extent. i have a young lady that does all the marketing. i have one craker jack carpenter and a helper. the rest if i need help are hired locally when i'm in a new area. but back to what i was sayin',,,, prescreening leads? what do you tell folks that want something detailed in writing when you wanna know what kind of a chance does this customer have in signing before i sit down to the drawing board?
Edited 11/2/2004 12:05 pm ET by J Jordan Builders
what do you tell folks that want something detailed in writing when you wanna know what kind of a chance does this customer have in signing before i sit down to the drawing board?
That'll be $200, please. (Or whatever you think a detailed proposal, and the time you put into it, is worth. $1000. Whatever.)
I know, you already said that you didn't want to hear that.
When you first meet them, say "Excuse me for being rude, but are you simply window shopping?". Most people won't be expecting the question and won't lie convincingly. Then tell them that rough estimates are free, but detailed proposals take x hours of your time. Then ask them whether they think x hours of your time, and the resultant detailed proposal, is worth more than "free".
I certainly wouldn't provide them with any proposal paperwork (designs, specs) that they haven't paid for. You can show the paperwork, but it goes home with you when the meeting is over.
The no-money alternative, basically a classic sales call, is literally to qualify the customer:
"What do you want to do, and what is your spending ceiling?"
"Well, we want to remodel the kitchen, and we can afford $25,000."
<At this point, you gather the required remodelling information and do your rough estimate as to whether $25K is reasonable. If not, you've got to change their requirements or their dollars.>
Then you close:
"If I create a design and specs that meet your remodelling requirements, and come in at or under $25,000, do I have your word that you'll sign the contract at the end of our next meeting?"
Boom. Closed. Yes or no, put up or shut up. No weaselling allowed. Now, there's some pre-filler I've left out, like you telling them to check your references while you're designing, and also telling them how much time you'll be spending on the proposal and how much skill it requires.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
i like the idea of explaining what kind of skill it requires to produce a written estimate. i am quite aware of how little the general public knows about construction bidding process'es and how much work is involved. i've tried that chargin for estimates route and allways meet with "i'll be in touch", never hear from them again. just fifteen minutes ago i had a call where someone knows someone i've built a home for. when asked for a detailed cost breakdown, i told her that after she had gotten all the other bids she was interested in to give me a call and let me submit mine. i can't be positive, but i've often wondered if being the first bidder, i'm supplying the potential lead with info to get other builders to undercut. anyway, i'm trying to get to be the last one this time if price is the only qualifying aspect of the game right now. i'm in a slump and probably just annoyed to the point where i'm questioning myself and my skills,,, i'm sure everyone has done that. 'preciate the feedback, and your idea about promoting the skills of estimating to the potential homeowner strikes me as a good sales tactic. take care
j.
that block of text is hard for olde eyes to read...
so i didn't read it
i qualify them over the phone..if it's real simple.. i'll take the job over the phone for an hourly rate..
if they want me to come out and give them an estimate ... or a proposal... i'll charge them
why would they want to pay me for two hours to visit their job ?...
why would i give up two hours to figure an 8 hour job?
the more you do it ( make your potential customers pay for your time ) the easier it isMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike, i've gotten some awful good advice from you on this site in the past. it's been a while as i've disapeared on a slew of travel jobs and did not get on the computer much. i remember from way back about four, maybe five years ago i read a lot of threads that you, blodgett, and mr. lycos had written in detail on the charging for estimates line. funny, it resurfaced here recently though it might have several times in my absense on the same subject.
i've tried to charge for estimates from the first time i had read about the idea from a while back. i have never succeeded once in getting someone to pay me for my time when the going practice is for free estimates. again, i know there is a difference in a detailed document covereing all aspects of the job, and just a general "guesstimate".
Seems to me that the detailed estimates are the ones that get signed, if there is gonna be any signing, and the "ball-parkers" on a guesstimate sheet are the ones that beat me out if price was the governing aspect with the client, although we all know there gonna pay somewhere near the final outcome of what they think they are getting after all is said and done.
i've tried to explain this paradox in detail to the potential client though it never seems to take root. get a ball park price, and you get a ball park product. i just got a signed document today about fifteen minutes ago for a log home valued at about $220,000.00. i suspect all the attention to detail is what won the bid, aside from references, and the clients inspection of my work in progress on a current job. in either case,, what if they did not sign,,,, wasted time. what if i charged for the estimate,,, in my experience they run the other way. i think it mighta been you mike, or even blue-eyed, that posted a long time ago about the clients buying a "brand-named" product from us. esentially,, your clients buying the "mike smith" brand of home renovations or construction because of their confidence in your "brand" of buisiness practices, ehtics and the like. incidently, this contract that was signed today was started last summer. see what i mean about not knowing if you time is gonna be wasted? sorry about the text being small,, i did not realize you were gettin' on over the hill. ;)
j. jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
j. n branding is good..
i'm kinda unique... cause i live on an island... and i grew up here..
but still... i never could get the jobs i wanted until another guy started in business..
he advertised, developed a logo, raised his prices , and branded himself all over town..
i followed suit and it all got a lot better...
i'm confident i could go into any market and do a startup and get the jobs rolling in.... and i would still make sure i was getting paid for my time..
i know what you mean about getting that $200k home... what if you didn't get it.. but you did... so now you have a cushion... try and line up your next job witha different marketing approach..
do you have a weekly free paper ? is your logo / ad in the service directory every week..
are your trucks logo'd.. do you have your job signs with your logo on them ..
are you on your potential customers radar screens ?
and when they call, do you qualify them ?.. when you go out for the freebie interview , are you prepared to hand them an Analysis Proposal... you know ... "we will prepare a written specification and fixed price proposal for $1000 , payable $500 deposit ... and balance when we present the Fixed Price Proposal"
if you are ready... they will be too... if you're not...neither will they be ...
and you've got nothing to lose... you've already got your next contract in hand....
if you're marketing outside your normal working area.... well , that may be a lot hareder..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
okay,, you've given me a couple new tools to use and i basically understand them. this will fit well into how i'm handling the new prospects. as i think i understand this, i'm gonna ask to make sure,,,, your handing them the prelim stuff to review under no cost to them? then the fixed cost estimate cost's for your time. is this correct? mike, are your jobs pretty much rehab, and upgrade? just trying to get feel to see if were in the same game. i know rehabs involve some pretty detailed stuff more so than new construction. yes,, logos are everywhere,,,,cept',,,, signs on the jobs have netted zero results, in that log home customers typically build way off the beaten path. 'preciate the feedback, if you get the chance, explain a little more about the anaylisis and what your providing the client with in that capacity. hey wait,,,, you gonna charge me for this? ;(
j. jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
J...you gotta hit the enter button occasionally...even if your not at the end of a sentence or paragraph! Your posts are killing my eyes too!
Remember...hit the enter button. Its that thing that starts with e.
Anyways, you could easily jst waltz in with one of your completed log cabins, pictures of it, and bring the specs and plans. When they ask you for your ballpark, just say:"I don't know what your project will cost, all I know is that I've delivered this product for $220,000 dollars. Is this something you'd be interested in?"
they'll have to answer no..or yes. If they answer yes, pull out your contract and ask them their full name and address.
If they say no, they'll probably explain that their heart is set on their design. Tell them that their sketch won't be good enough for a permit, but you'd be willing to get them up to speed with plans/specs for X amount of dollars.
Tell them you don't do ballparks, but they can figure out what range they'd be in by comparing to your already completed plans.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
exactly... i never do ballparks.. but my portfolio is full of examples..
" now , this one we did two years ago for $160,000.. so with cost increases it would run a little more today....
and this one was $210K...
yada, yada, yada"
"it'll take me about 50 hours to put a fixed price on your house... if these plans you have are complete.... so, i'll prepare that Porposal for $2000 "
$500 to sign.... $500 when you deliver your plans.. and the balance when we give you our Proposaal"
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/2/2004 9:36 pm ET by Mike Smith
Your doing it right Mike.
You obvioulsly understand that you have to have already sold yourself and your company before you attempt this close.
Too many contractors think that the sale is made at the presentation of the proposal....nothing could be further from the truth. The sale is being made before any numbers are discussed.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
i've been following yer logic on comparing previous homes and trying to get to the point of signing a client up.
for some reason i've had a major slump in sales this past year that have me stumped on what the problem is.
at this point in my building career i am more established than i have ever been in the past with more satisfied clients on my reference roster and of course the experience i've gained to build faster smarter, more profitable.
it seems to me i'd be able to create sales at a more successful rate, but for whatever reason i've noticed a sharp decline since about the fall of 2003.
i've had work, but no where near the work request's i've had in the past.
this is where the idea about eliminating tirekickers came from,,,, i think the other poster who called them window shoppers had a better example. since times have been slow, i would much rather not waste time talking with those who are just shopping for information.
in either case i've gotten some good advice from this board and am going to put into practice some of the ideas i've read on here.
incidently, blue, have you ever noticed a decline in sales opportunites and figured out why it was so?
just curious to hear from someone who has been where i'm still trying to go.
thanx again for the feedback, and i'll work on my posting skills to where its easier on an old salt carpenters eyes.
take care,
jon jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
J Jordan...much easier on the eyes! Thanks!
When I remodeled I had ups and downs every season. I never was steady.
Of course, I didn't have a clue how to sell either. I was too busy studying construction/carpentry. I've finally concluded that I'm not a good fit for remodeling or contract building. I'm much too independent and stubborn although with age, I could possibly make a go of it...but I probably woulldn't. I'm not good at catering to people's misguided theories....like adding three rows of bridging/blocking to 14' joist. If I'm in a contract situation...I gotta do it. If I'm speccing a house, and they won't buy it without three rows of bridging, I just open the door and toss them out.
Here's my opinion right now at this moment of you. You are discouraged. You are feeling a little burned out.
These are attitudes that will kill you in the sales department. In sales, you have to be the reluctant provider. You have to take a confident position and basically scedule the interview with the client to SEE IF YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE HIS JOB!
That is a huge key. MAKE THE CLIENT SELL HIMSELF ON YOU! Don't automatically walk into every clients house willing to take the job! Make his earn your trust...your respect. These things are two way streets.
At this time, you have a very nice selling position. It is up to you to capitalize on it in the coming months.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
blue,,,
your right,, i've long known that i'm heading towards burnout. i'm hoping that after this upcoming project,, and maybe one more, i can finish my spec home you advised me on in another thread and get away from the need for clients.
it's been raining where i'm at a good bit and i've had the luxury of sittin on my duff to read stuff on the site,, learned a lot these couple of days and it seems that the recurring theme has been the same.
working for the public is tuff,,, and for those of us who do it,,, it helps to hear new ideas, and old ideas from a different perspective.
your right about the sales,,,, i am inherently more confident at the moment,,, but mindful of what a dry spell it's been.
i plan to use the wave i'm ridin' to my advantage and get some contracts signed.
i gotta run,, thanx again!
by the way,,, who's the president? anyone know yet?
jon jordan
Good luck to you my friend.
George Bush..four more years...unless he pulls a roosevelt!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
i'm off to the races in about a week,,, looking forward to starting a new project,,, seems it allways is nicer on the front end,,, then i'm looking for a newone soon to alleviate the familiarity!
thanx for all the input blue.
one quick question,,,
about misguided theories on bridging blocks and such.
i've long been under the impression that plywood was supposed to eliminate the "deflection" theory in midspans one it replaced diagonal subfloors.
i allways try to "get away with it" around inspectors, though it seems the adaption of our southern codes still call for it.
whats your take on the bridging blocking. does it do any thing that the plywood is not already? just curious.
i try to do a dang clean job of building by putting in everything you need and nothing you don't,,, i despise wasted money and motions (time).
take care and i'm off to look at the fishing reports,,, gettin' an itch for the coast again!
jon jordan
prequalifing ...
"if I can make some scheduling changes, exactly how soon are you looking to start the project"
and ...
"you probably have a number in mind ... what budget am I working with here?"
and Q's such as that.
Neither will get you the answers you need ... but either ... or both ... will tell you if they are tire kickers or serious.
"shock them into reality" ... as an old sales manager would tell me.
another goood one ...
"I can be there to start next Tuesday" ...
that get's the conversation flowing .....
Jeff
Jeff, I remember you telling a little about car sales. That area fascinates me. I recently read a rather lengthy article on the net "confessions of a car salesman". It was quite the story.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I'll have to search for that.
There are/were some real slime out there selling ...
not just cars ... but at a big dealership, like the one I worked ...
lotsa potentials ... and even more tire kickers .. to practice on.
funny thing ... as much as the public complained about car guys lying ...
the customers I ran into out did us by a wide margin.
same with any sales .. ask a few Q's to prequalify ... see what kinda car will fit their budget ...
"Oh , us ... top tier credit ... this is the first dealers .. just started looking ... abour $500/month " ...
then ya run the credit app and see thay've been shpooing for a month, because they're credit is shot ... and everyone else already told them all they'll get financed for is $250. People don't realize credit app's are kept on file for the next guy to look at.
My sales manager would try to push me harder ... in the end ... half the time I had to overcome his lies and the customers lies just to close a deal!
Jeff
found it at Edmunds.com ...
does look long.
have it saved for later.
Jeff
Yeah... thats the one. Its a good read...especially for anyone buying a car.
It would make an interesting thread.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
'preciate that jeff,
that has allways been a trouble area for me as far as sales.
getting the customer to divulge the stage of decision making they are in.
ironically, i've never had trouble with getting their budgets from them.
thanks for the feedback.
i noticed on another thread where you had a copy of the contracts you were using,, forgot the thread, something about contracts.
picked up a few things from your contract i had not thought of but were still a danged good idea.
allways lookin' to improve!
thanks jeff
jon jordan
Jon, the issue of bridging is just heating up. We don't do it, it's not required and theres been no issues of "too bouncy" in the last 8 years that I stopped putting it in.
Personally, I eliminate all useless cripples. On doorways, I put two, instead of three. On windows, I put three instead of four. I don't automatically put one on each end, which I view as wasteful in most circumstances.
I don't automatically double jack large headers. I use judgment. I don't load up al overhangs with blocking on 16 or 24 centers.....the stuff is already fastened on 12" centers by the frieze and subfascia.
There are lots of unnecessary parts installed just because "thats the way I was taught"! I say...let common sense rule!
Good luck on the new project, but remember now is the time to explode your marketing efforts. It's counterintuitive but...correct!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
where is the issue heating up blue?
are the folks that govern the building codes gonna do some much needed revision?
i'd like to see that.
i'm one to stuff the headers solid, and i bond-notch my lookouts on 2' centers through the barge out to the 1st solid rafter.
i go to that trouble on the overhangs because i'm near 260 pounds and don't wanna be in the "plummeting" mode.
but the bridging/ blocking? big waste!
all they ever do for me is give the homeowner something to gripe about because of the sqeaks.
raining up yalls way? thicker than red-eyed gravy down in jawja,,,,
take care,
jon jordan
The bridging thing is only an issue in this forum.
Quite often, I nail the two members in the header together without a spacer. Those spacers actually weaken the header...somewhat. The idea that the spacer MUST be inserted into the middle is a false notion. It works just as well on the outside..inside or not at all if you are going to "box" it in with filler material anyways.
We rarely have any gable overhangs that require cantilevered blocking. I'm quick to add it on the larger projcections but most of our stuff is 1x8 over a frieze. It requires no temp bracing before sheathing and after sheathing shows no signs of weakness.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos
Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!
I just heard Michael Stone's excellent seminar on qualifying customers at the JLC show. If I am not mistaken he is just coming out with a book on sales... you can probably get info on that from his website... markupandprofit.com... or on the JLC website forum on markup and profit.
i'm gonna check it out,,, thanx
please forgive the run'on sentences, i tend to be good at those when typing on the screen what is running through my mind at the moment
no problemo. You can click yer cursor on the ends of a sentence and then hit Enter to breakup the flow of sentencing into easier to read paragraghs.
takes an xtra 10-15 seconds.
yep,, english and writing were not the subjects of choice in college,,, though i admire those who write well,,,, i'm not one of them.
Don't let Blue hear that...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
let's see...1131x15sec divided by 4....
Hey, he's got a point there.
.
See it?
Roar!