Replies

1. 
   BossHog | Jan 27, 2009 02:56pm | #1

   Welcome to Breaktime.

   Make sure the hangers you're using are sized and installed correctly. Not all top flange hangers were meant for top flange only nailing.

   A pat on the back is only a few inches from a kick in the butt.

1. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 01, 2009 04:59pm | #4

   hangers are top mount nailing only.  I've meet with the inspector and he is going to check with the cheif.  thanks

2. 
   Gene_Davis | Feb 08, 2009 07:01am | #20

   From the Simpson website.  No pack out required in the web, but follow the instructions from the I-joist supplier as regards web blocking for the joists, at this connection.

   View Image

   Now, as for that beam size.  We have architects and plans-drawers here that avoid the cost of a structural engineer, and simply over-specify steel.  They just go way heavy.

   But I have never seen anything like that size in any kind of residential single-family structure.

   If you can, please describe what that beam is carrying.  Give us its length between bearings, and all the stuff that is coming down onto it from above, or hanging from below.  And if roof load is involved, tell us whether you are in deep snow country or not. 

   View Image

   "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

   Gene Davis        1920-1985

   
1. 
   alfie | Feb 08, 2009 11:15am | #21

   We just finished building a Barn/Garage 52'x28'. Originally there was to be a 52' long steel beam at 17' from the garage doors, and one post approx mid span. Then the framing was to be 11 7/8 TJIs @16". My framer saw the drawing and asked me to take a look at getting rid of the steel and putting in just TJIs, and claimed it would be less expensive.We ended up eliminating the steel and going with 16" TJI 560's @12" spanning the 28'. Even with that overkill structure the saving was $2,000, perhaps more, and the entire space is open, no posts.

2. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 09, 2009 02:19pm | #25

   The overall length is 72' with two columns at 26' in from each end.  The TJI's are spaning 20', overall 40' front to back.  The second floor will have a w12x50 at the center to carry floor load, 2nd floor is about 48'x40' we will be supporting the 2nd floor beam with 4 columns, they will not stack over the columns supporting the 1st floor steel (w12x136), which are sitting on 68"x68"x16"footings.  The roof is trusses, hip.  The two end walls of the second floor will have a w12x50 running front to back, and the only load I can figure that steel is going to carry is the tail trusses of the hip roof which might be 5' - 6' long!  I have been building custom homes since I was in high school, (20 years with a 4year stint in the commercial world) and have never seen such a gross over-engineering job in that time, especially by a professional structural engineer.

    Unfortunatlly the first floor is framed and it's too late to make any changes.  But the next time I'm asked to frame a house with the same engineer, I will make it a point to question him directly before letting the builder or homeowner waste money and material on something that appears to be CYA.

   As to the picture you attached from simpson, I did verify with the supplier and manufacturer specs as to packing the beam and joist web.

2. 
   Marson | Jan 27, 2009 03:19pm | #2

   I was under the impression that the wood bolted to the web of an I beam was there to improve the beams performance in a fire.

1. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 01, 2009 05:11pm | #5

   that is a new one on me, but makes sense.  The steel that was speced by the structural engineer is W12x136.  Not sure if he considered fire when he was calcing the loads.  thanks

1. 
   BossHog | Feb 01, 2009 05:18pm | #7

   Are you SURE it's a W12x136 ??? I've never seen anything that heavy in residential construction.If you have the headroom and still have the option, a deeper beam would likely be much lighter in weight. That would make it cheaper to buy and easier to install.
   Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.

1. 
   frammer52 | Feb 01, 2009 06:40pm | #8

   Does seam alittle big!

1. 
   MattSwanger | Feb 03, 2009 02:41pm | #9

   For nailing into steel I beams I use my .27 caliber Hilti ramset,  or my new favorite my Powers cordless gas powered nailer.  Winter here i have to keep a gas cell in my sleeve and rotate as they freeze.  either way works well. 

    Woods favorite carpenter

    

2. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 05, 2009 05:27am | #10

   Yes it is W12x136!  Not sure if the engineer is being cautious or didn't realize we are only building a two story house.  The steel is set and the floor is framed, so too late to change that, but the inspector did get back to me on the hangers and they (the building department) did not think it necessary to have all that blocking with the top mount hangers.  I also checked the Simpson book and found that they could be used without the blocking.

1. 
   dukeofwsu | Feb 05, 2009 05:46am | #11

   Maybe W12x36, meaning 12" tall and 36# per foot. Biggest I've ever set was 12x67 for a 33' clear span of a three story house. Helluva job.Duke

2. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 05, 2009 04:54pm | #12

   No, W12x136 meaning 13-1/2" tall 12-7/16"wide, flange and web are 1" thick, and it is 136 lbs. per foot.  I did commercial base building for a while 8 years ago and never saw anything like this then.  We're in No. VA and the steel contractor had to oder this in from Chicago, first time in his 30 years that he couldn't get a piece of iron locally.

3. 
   HammerHarry | Feb 05, 2009 06:10pm | #13

   Sure sounds like someone slipped a digit, but never went back to check it, or refuses to double check his/her work.

   That's some big steel.

4. 
   GregT | Feb 07, 2009 04:47am | #14

   can you take a picture of this monster?

   I didn't think top mount hangers were all that uncommon.  I used them in a couple of places on our addition and it is so much easier than packing the web of the beam obviously.  This may not have been kosher though as I welded them to the top flange of the beam in one location because I was not able to add a sleeper to the top flange due to a height issue.  Welding them may not be an acceptable method of attachment.

   Does anyone know how packing the web of a beam with flammable wood make the beam more fire resistant?

   GT

5. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 08, 2009 06:11am | #18

   I believe the idea is that in a house fire the steel, although structurally stronger than wood, will conduct heat much quicker and start to warp and eventually fail (trade center)  While wood can burn quite a bit longer before catastophic failure.  So packing the web with wood would insulate the steel, in theory.  Have no idea if there's any truth to it.  Being that I'm new to Breaktime, if anyone can tell me how to post a picture, I will snap a couple of this over engineered floor system.

6. 
   JeffinPA | Feb 09, 2009 03:06pm | #28

   Re packing beam with wood for fireresistance.

   The heat of a fire will twist a piece of steel like a piece of taffy.

   The solid wood will hold the steel in it's form until the wood burns thru (and with 3 sides of the wood protected by the steel of the beam, the wood wont burn thru till most everything else is carbon)

   If the steel stays straight, it can sag but wont twist and pull free from the ends and drop

    

   Makum sensum?

7. 
   brad805 | Feb 07, 2009 05:48am | #15

   That is a tabulated beam size, but it is a very inefficient size  unless there were span or depth restrictions.  Its probably too late, but with that flange thickness you may be able to notch the joists to sit on the bottom flange and skip the hangers provided there are no point loads being applied to the joist ends.  Simpson does make weldable hangers.  Its all on their website. 

   Brad

8. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 08, 2009 06:15am | #19

   Too, late.  Although I have done that in the past, it was with solid 2x lumber.  I doubt we could notch TJI's, but you never know. 

9. 
   brad805 | Feb 09, 2009 04:22am | #23

   I bet wtih some end blocks I bet the Trus joist guys would give you a design.  Ahh, well.  I sure hope the Steel detailer/fabricator provided you some bolts for the nailer plates.  Might be a trick to shot hilti through that top flange and I sure wouldnt want to be drilling it. 

10. 
    jrnbj | Feb 07, 2009 06:52am | #16

    Holy Cr@p, that's a big hunk of iron...
    Potomac Steel?
    I have to believe someone made a mistake....Kind of thing that makes me crazy, it that's what happened.....such a waste

11. 
    CapnMac | Feb 09, 2009 05:24am | #24

    and never saw anything like this then

    I'm curious, what is this fastened to, and how?

    Thie dimensions do not suggest a simple bolted connection to a pipe column.  Is this set into masonry for bearing?  Bolting flange on a column?  Weldments?

    There's a "house" in town that had a commercial-grade red-iron spine put in similar in dimension to what you describe.  That one used a mix of welded tube and bolted shear connections.  But, they were spanning a 4ksf two-story ballroom as part of this 30ksf house.

     Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

12. 
    JeffinPA | Feb 09, 2009 03:54am | #22

    Jw

    1.  12x136 is 136 lbs per linear foot.  That would be extraordinary.

    Anything over 4 feet long would require a crane.

    Re the simpson book, what does the TJI book say? 

    If tji says block, then gotta.  (it depends upon the loads on the floor if i recall)

13. 
    jwwood1 | Feb 09, 2009 02:26pm | #26

    The overall weight of the entire beam is 9800lbs.  It had to be sent in three sections, and we did have a 40 ton crane to pick it because the foundation has not been backfilled, the gtound is wet and we were worried about collapse so the crane had to be over 60 feet away.  I use the same crane company all the time so I trust his judgement on what size machine to use, and we don't pay anymore for any size, unless he hase to bring out the monster.

14. 
    JeffinPA | Feb 09, 2009 03:02pm | #27

    Ok.  You gotta post some picts of this one.

    They putting a Huey helepad on the roof or something?

    I cant even imagine how to get that much steel into a 12" beam.

    (I always thought 12x48's were big for residential)

    Us residential guys dont know how to deal with real steel!!!

3. 
   cliffy | Jan 27, 2009 04:51pm | #3

   I usually use the I Level and the engineers specs come with the product   in a framers booklet stapled to the joist package.  From memory I can't remember your specific detail but it is probably there.  Usually the building inspector wants confirmation that you have followed the engineer's instructions.

   Have a good day

   Cliffy

    

1. 
   jwwood1 | Feb 01, 2009 05:15pm | #6

   I thought we'd get some paperwork with the delivery, but nothing.  I have to deal with the GC's supplier, they don't seem to be on top of things.  I'm going to make a call to them as well as wait for wrod back from the inspector.  thanks

4. 
   Jeff_Clarke | Feb 07, 2009 07:40pm | #17

   W12 x 136 ???    LOL that's a mistake!

   Largest unbraced beam I've ever seen in a house was W12 x 40.

   "I was under the impression that the wood bolted to the web of an I beam was there to improve the beams performance in a fire."

   Nope!

   I like to use the BetterHeader flitch and wide flange pieces - they use flush fasteners so that you can place face-mounted hangers nearly anywhere.   Top-hung floors always seem a little too 'live' to me.

   http://www.betterheader.com/

   View Image

   View Image Note that they have galvanized beams and flitch plates for exterior use too -

    

   Jeff