Replies

1. 
   vintage1 | Mar 28, 2007 12:44am | #1

   Paul,

   Why not modify the "cost plus percentage or cost plus fixed fee" contracts from the Legal Kit?

   I used a modified version of the former on my current project. 

    

    

1. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 12:50am | #2

   Well, that's sort of what I did...I used the labor only and added a provision for material plus a markup. Just seemed like a lot of paperwork for the circumstances. (Must mean it's good ;) )PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com

1. 
   vintage1 | Mar 28, 2007 01:08am | #3

   Paul,

   I just meant that the cost plus contracts included the provisions for marking up your time and material.  It spells it out, the % you will mark up materials and labor for your OH&P.

   It can seem a bit daunting or even overkill if the project is relatively small.

   What is the size/scope of your project?

1. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 01:16am | #4

   Well the long and short of it is that we are starting a fairly large job on a T&M basis just to get it rolling. The client is chomping at the bit and it's a short timescale, but it's part of an overall pretty large (50K or so) job.  I guess I'll go with what I've prepared and hope it doesn't seem obnoxious.

    PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com

1. 
   vintage1 | Mar 28, 2007 01:22am | #5

   FWIW,

   My current job, I wanted to have a more formal contract than my usual 2 page spec/contract.

   I think the one I had them sign was about 7-9 pages.  My project was 60k-70k depending on their selections. 

   At first, I was worried that this would scare them off since I had never used this before.  But I just felt I needed something to protect both of us.

   They didn't blink an eye, signed it, and I feel better knowing there is a base to refer to if things get complicated.

    

2. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 01:31am | #6

   Overall I agree... my typical contract is 7 or 8 pages but I just had a feeling that for what was a simple "I charge X per hour, and cost plus X for materials" this was a bit much but maybe that makes it look more "professional" ;)

   Thanks for the input!PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com

2. 
   dovetail97128 | Mar 28, 2007 02:19am | #7

   Paul,

   You may look for a book Titled:

   "Construction Forms & Contracts" by
   Craig Savage/ Karen Jones-Mitchell

   I bought mine about six yrs ago, it came with a CD with all the documents on it so you can download or modify anything they have .
   It has just about every possible item one wants contained in it.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/27/2007 7:20 pm by dovetail97128

1. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 03:14am | #9

   Thanks, dove

   I have the "Contractor's Legal Kit" which I like very much, I was sure it had T&M agreements (I've never needed one before) so I was cuaght offguard when it didn't.

    PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com

2. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 28, 2007 04:10am | #11

   "short, sweet and enforcible..."?

   How about this - the customer gives you a retainer, say 20% of the expected job total.  You then bill weekly for all labor and materials at the agreed rate, starting the first week.  They have a predetermined time to look over the bill and pay it or all work stops until any disputes are resolved.

   You keep the retainer and apply it to the final bill, which could be any time you or the customer decide the relationship is unworkable.  But no matter what, you'll be able to pay yourself, your help, your subs and your suppliers from the retainer before refunding whatever is left, either at the end of the job, or when the customer balks at paying a bill.

   THAT'S enforcible. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.

1. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 04:26am | #12

   You know Jim, I was kicking exactly the same thing around.  In this case I decided not to go that route but it does have a certain logic. Must be some genetic German thing, but I'm just much more comfortable with a regular ole fixed price contract... hopefully this time T&M will work out OK.PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com

1. 
   davidmeiland | Mar 28, 2007 06:41am | #13

   The boilerplate for my jobs is always the same. If we do T&M work I use a short "scope of work" description and a list that defines what is work that's billable, and what's not. Most disputes arise from lack of clarity about that list, so make sure yours is good.

1. 
   bobl | Mar 28, 2007 04:07pm | #14

   how do you folks see the difference between T&M and Cost Plus?and how do you think your customers see the difference?my background is Gov't contracting and there is a big contractual difference there. 

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter    WFR

   "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

2. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 28, 2007 04:53pm | #15

   "cost plus" that's a term I don't think I have ever used.  What IS the difference between that and t+m?Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.

3. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Mar 28, 2007 05:25pm | #16

   I'm curious too about the differences Bobl.

   blue"...

   keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

   From the best of TauntonU.

4. 
   bobl | Mar 28, 2007 06:17pm | #17

   T&M and Cost plusI'm speaking from my experience contracting for DoD on the difference.I want a box built.Cost plus I contract for the box to be built and pay the labor and material costs plus overhead etc. If you estimated 10 hours and it took 12, I pay for 12 hours.T&M I contract for time for labor and for materials. I pay for the cost plus overhead for the labor and for the materials. I have you use the labor and materials to build the box.looks the same, and in end results can be basically the same.but what if you can't build the box?Cost plus I can refuse to pay because you didn't deliver.T&M, you delivered the labor, you delivered the materials, you get paid.to repeat myself, this is from my experience contracting for the AF. There may be other contract law that applies to construction in the varies states. Also, Uncle may have some different rules for construction, but the basics were usually the same.edit: I managed a $60M T&M contract for software development. Was very successful.bobl Volo, non valeoBaloney detecter WFR"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

   Edited 3/28/2007 11:19 am ET by bobl

3. 
   rpait | Mar 28, 2007 02:54am | #8

   I use the book smart business for contractors. Has worked great for me. I attached a copy of my style, this one happens to be a labor only agreement but is easily altered for materials also.

1. 
   PaulBinCT | Mar 28, 2007 03:16am | #10

   Thanks!

   Looks like a nice simplified version of the fixed price contract we use which runs 7 or 8 pages.  Sometimes less is more ;)

    PaulB

   http://www.finecontracting.com