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If it was his idea to meet at the restaurant, then politely decline once or twice, then give in and be gracious.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What the heck?
Decline? Why would you do that? So you wouldn't be indebted to him for 20 bucks?
I would thank the new potential customer and hope for the best.
Now, if he offered b/4 ordering and you got the lobster tail, maybe that would be a bit forward and in bad taste.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
journey...here's the deal...
what is it that you bring to the table ? your skills
what does your potential customer bring ? his money
that is the way the relationship will proceed..
would i let him buy lunch.......
you betMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have been treated to meals by prospective clients and past customers many more times than I have bought them. I always took it as a compliment. Mostly that they wanted to be sure that we chose their job rather than me wanting to be sure that they chose us for the job. Does that make sense?
Chris Calhoun
Douglas, GA
Okay guys, good points.
Now, let's you get the job, and then the customer buys you and your crew donuts. Is this the proverbial Boston cream? A donut may be thought of as something that entitles a freebee, just as a meal is something that's often traded for your work when you're helping a friend. Only this is not a "friend," it's a customer, and you expect him to pay you in $$.
So if a customer buys you and your crew donuts, or, if a customer buys you and your crew donuts more than once . . .
do you accept, or do you not accept?-T
It would be rude to not accept them
walter,
i would disagree on that.
in my case-in 20 years only a single customer has ever done that without running it by me first
Once or twice a year ( typically when i call in advance to inform the customer to expect a material delivery tommorrow and that weather permitting we will start work Tuesday)--a customer will mention wanting to treat us to coffee and donuts or a pizza or something on the days we are working.
I nip that in the bud. I thank the customer--"Really i appreciate your generosity most people wouldn't even offer such a thing" etc.---but I explain that we work under the gun-we have our ways, our systems, our timetables---and while we appreciate the offer it would unfortuneately dis-rupt the work flow.
actually, i have a crew I have subcontracted a lot of stuff OUT to. Occasionally i would bring THEM donuts----and it quite quickly got out of hand. In the workers mind it quickly became an entitlement. they EXPECTED donuts EVERY day--and if they DIDN'T get them they were pizzed off--really bitter------and there was no pleasing them. they would complain because the donuts were too good---too much jelly in th jelly donuts--the cream sticks were stuffed to full--the apple fritters were too big etc.
In short there is no pleasing some people, LOL
( also-i have had 2 seperate crews complain that the beer I bought them after particularly difficult jobs----was too GOOD. each crew had particular brands of really nasty cheap beer that they preferred--and they were pizzed off by better stuff
So--no food, no coffee, no pop, no beer---we appreciate the offer, really we do--but "no thanks"
BTW-- my dad told me many times--when he was growing up during the depression and working with my grandpa--it was completely and universally understood that if a customer was having work done on their home they fed the carpenters lunch each day.
different times, eh?
Best wishes,
stephen
Stephen,
Man if I had a group around me like you've just described I'd shortly be working alone.
I hope your search for help yields some real people who don't look the gift horse in the eye.
Walter
walter- i know what you mean--but I share at least some of the blame
when I am there to work--I am there to work--not eat donuts, LOL.
It always suprisies me how quickly a gift or a privilege or a bonus becomes an entitlement.
I bet if we scroll back to around Xmas time here--there will be a thread where people complain about working all year for an employer--and ONLY got a $50 Xmas bonus vs, zero threads thanking an employer for keeping them working and earning all year.
kind of wondering if xmas 2008--will a higher ratio of people be glad just to have a job---and less disgruntled over a $50 or non-existant bonus.
Hey--not to change the topic--- but 2 of the guys i think will be working with me this year---are each expecting babies.- what would be a nice congrat.s gift in that case--for a worker that has only been with you a couple months????? $100-$200 cash?--10 packs diapers-what exactly?-couple days off with pay???
stephen
Stephen,
I guess I don't know what the best present would be for new babies.
I think any gesture you make is a nice statement. I once gave a co- worker who'd just had a newborn a U.S. Savings Bond in the babies name.
Can't spend it now but the gesture was genuine.
Walter
walter--you know the Savingsbond IS a nice gesture-- i will have to think about that.
one concern--- by definition-- i am not dealing with the most organized folks here---and i suspect the Savings bond may be lost long before maturity.
in OUR case--actually various well meaning friends gave my two sons savings bonds when they were born.- I am EXTREMELY we organized---but years later we were only able to find one sons bonds.
I agree it IS a nice gesture.
stephen
Stephen,
I think any thing you do for them is great. Just used that as an example- might not be right in this instance, maybe cash or gift card if they're kind of strapped.
I'm meeting with a fellow tom. that called me wanting employment- just moved up from Southern Maine-- claims to have a lot of experience with slate and copper. He told me they have 7 month old TWINS.
Sounds like double whatever is given.
Walter
"in OUR case--actually various well meaning friends gave my two sons savings bonds when they were born.- I am EXTREMELY we organized---but years later we were only able to find one sons bonds."There is a process for getting them replaced.The government bond website should have it..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
stephen.. new borns always get those onesies ( you know ... the kind with the snaps on the bottom & the tee shirt on top
i always have a seamstress sew one of our patches on it.... the guys get a big kick out of it
and i get a US Savings bond with the kids name & social security number ( the baby needs a SSAN to get a US bond )
anyways..... same ole, same ole... what would you like if the roles were reversed Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
you know what i am thinking mike
what would have the same proportional impact to me---that the $200 xmas bonus had all those years ago?
an evelope with $750 in sweet cash in it.
xmas 2008 the guys will either be on lay-off or long gone
either way-- I wouldn't forget the $750.
that's a number that requires some thought.
stephen
well.... they would certainly sit up and take notice
and you know.... there will always be some who will think "entitlement"
but there are others who will think.... "kind of company i want to stay with"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sounds like a signing bonus !!
Stephen, I think the book First break all the Rules explains something about those bonuses. (I'm starting to sound like a broken record....).Anyways, I was never big on buying donuts or lunches because I bring a sack lunch and don't like to travel at lunch. I also hate stopping on the way to work or on the way home. I know people grumble about bonuses too. I remember vividly getting a $2500 bonus one xmas and the next year expecting more. Everyone in the company was peeved that it was 20% less! Yes, we were grumbling that we only got 2k! So, I never really got on the bonus idea. Instead, I used to show up with a new saw or something like that when I saw one of my regular employees with a ratty saw. No warning, just walk up and set a brand new exact replacement and say "thanks for doing a great job. That saw of your's looks like it will be a good backup". I'd bring the guys cords, gloves, tapes. We'd give the guys the worn generators and compressors. I'd allow the guys to use the tools over the weekends for "side" jobs. There's lots of ways to show appreciation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
as a former employee of a co. that gave xmas bonus, we come to expect them. its kind of like, medical ins., retirement, etc. We as a member of the working class, appreciate knowing that it saves us from saving all year for christmas. While a new tool is nice, I like my boss to give me the money to spend as I wish. If you would supply the tools to your men they would appreciate not having to spend their money to make you money.
I'm not talking hand tools, but the power and pneumatic.
If my boss tried to keep cust. from giving, donuts, coffee, gaterade, he would be working by himself shortly.
Every one of my guys is hired on with full knowledge that they supply their own saw and cord. I'll supply them a file and handsaw if they don't want to bring their own power saw and I'll pay them according to their productivity. In exchange for supplying their tools, they get to demand more per hour in their wages. In the end, they end up making more each year because .50 per hour will buy a lot of saws and cords. If they want to supply their own nail guns, the same thinking applies. I have asked clients not to buy donuts and stuff and explained that we work 300 days per year or so and in most cases, there isn't anyone bringing us food. We "come prepared" and if they bring coffee or lunch, we end up wasting the stuff we brought. I adamently refuse beer citing liability issues. I do encourage cold bottles of water. Frank runs things different though and I don't think he cares one way or another. One of the things that I don't like about donuts or coffee showing up at random, unasked for times is that it often sits in a tray and gets cold and wasted. The donuts never go bad but it looks bad when a ten dollar tray of coffee is sitting there the next day not touched. When they bring it onsite, I feel obligated to shut things down and get the stuff consumed. That might cost me $50 to drink $10 worth of coffee. No thanks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not that I want to change the direction this thread is going (uhum), - but I do.
On a more possitive note . . . if you employers really want to show appreciation for skilled hard work, I'd say the same principle applies that Mike Smith used for customers:<!----><!----><!---->
here's the deal...<!----><!---->
what is it that you bring to the table ? your skills<!----><!---->
what does your potential customer bring ? his money<!----><!---->
that is the way the relationship will proceed..<!----><!---->
Replace the word "customer," with "employer," and you come to see very quickly that the way to keep employees happy is to acknowledge their skills. I've quit jobs without notice simply because an employer unjustly insulted my skills, and I'm proud to admit it. If you don't appreciate my skills, I can't appreciate your paycheck - no matter how much you pay me. And because I have those skills, I know I'll find somebody who does. Fortunately though, I haven’t had to do that very often. However, when I think back to the times I have, I still remember those employers with contempt.<!----><!---->
Jim Allen does a nice thing by buying employees tools, but I think he does something even nicer by being honest enough to admit his employee did a "great job." He did the opposite of insulting his guy's skills - he complimented them. If I had been that guy, I would've worked twice as hard for Jim, because he proved himself to be a boss that's capable of acknowledging other people.<!----><!---->
-T
Edited 2/15/2008 12:35 am ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
stephen... every morning i get "coffee" which consists of juice
no donuts.... ( some of us don't NEED donuts )
if there are subs on the job , i ask them if they want anything
if i miss, due to other commitments... life goes on... the job doesn't stop..
nobody complains
entitlement ?
maybe
but we work 7 - 3:30 with a 30 minute break for lunch at 12..
so a mid-morning "coffee" is just something that i want... and if it's good enough for me... it's good enough for my guysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I find thats a good time to catch up on whats going on in the lives of the subs and co- workers and generally banter a bit.
I'm a firm believer like Stephen that theres work to do, but everyone needs a break--- dononuts are optional !!
Walter
mike--
it's different strokes for different folks.
One of the crews i used to sub some stuff out to--the boss bought lunch each and every day for the entire crew. they had various favorite places around town based on whatever neighborhood they were working in that day. One of the workers told me one day that where ever they went for lunch-- he would order the most expensive thing available-wether he actually liked it or not--just to cost Tony( the boss) a bit more.
the way we work---we are working at a different house every couple days. there is never a portapotty------usually there isn't a customer at home--so there is no access to the "facilities"--and even if a customer is home-- i don't want them in the customers house-----and i certainley don't want them peeing behind the customers garage-which they WILL do If I don't ride herd, LOL.
i am perfectly willing to BUY lunch for the entire crew each day about 11:15-11:30--just so the guys have acess to a bathroom and get a square meal. I shouldn't have to---but some guys refuse to pack a lunch, refuse to bring their own water, they are broke by weds--and If we don't buy their lunch they are running on empty and dragging all day.
i keep a water cooler-and usually an ice chest of gatoraid which the guys are welcome to--and frequently I buy 2 packs of smokes a day and leave them with the water cooler as community smokes
but i have never understood how a guy can NOT pack a lunch, NOT bring his own water,NOT realize that the 3 ciggies in his pack won't make it through the day, LOL
help me out mike---what if anything should a buy for/give to a guy with a new baby that has been with me say 2 months( both these guys actually live with their partner)
don't say "medical benefits", LOL-that isn't currently in the works-- but what would catch the guy by suprise( wow-that was nice of steve-i didn't expect THAT)
Stephen
Edited 2/14/2008 10:34 am ET by Hazlett
give to a guy with a new baby
Money gets spent, his partner/wife may never even see it. Diapers are consumables.
How about a baby blanket with the name and birthday embriodered on it.
Practical gift, the mom will love it. The child will have it for years and the parents will always remember who gave it to them.
JAlden-------- you know-about the blanket idea??- if we had a longer term relationship with these guys, my wife would almost certainely make them a quilt( she will make a quilt at ANY excuse)
i DO know-- first"grown up" job I had-- i was making $4/hour--started in august. At Xmas time ( just a few months later)--the boss gave me a bonus of $200. TOTALLY un-expected and made a BIG impression on me at the time.
I also remember--just a few years later--being the sole support of 4 people on $6.50 an hour and the nightmare of buying diapers everyweek or Washing diapers--there just isn't any affordable way out of it--- and i doubt diapers have gotten any less expensive in the last 18 years, LOL
I am just thinking there might be somethings that are comparitively small to me now---- that might mean a lot or be very BIG to these guys currently.
thank you for the idea
stephen
" but i have never understood how a guy can NOT pack a lunch, NOT bring his own water,NOT realize that the 3 ciggies in his pack won't make it through the day, LOL"Umm...because you enable them every single day?Personally, I can't see refusing beer/food/whatever from clients/bosses. Maybe I have just been lucky.
you are probably correct Jesse,
i mean-why should I dailey invest what is in effect pocket money to me in order to help get my projects done on time and on budget?
what i should do-----is "teach these guys a lesson"
I mean-- the SMART thing is to save maybe $150/week in lunches, gatorade and smokes--ignore the extra hour or 2 a day the resulting slow down will cost me----and forget about the lost $1800 a week or so of revenue stream.
the important thing is--that I am right and will have put those guys in their place!!!!!!
BTW------- the reasonably astute will have detected my sarcasm in the above post.
Best wishes all,
stephen
and they better not look him in the mouth neither.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal,
Why is that ? Does he spit nails !!
Might be regional Walter, but here in Ohio you don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
or, I didn't listen to the cliche factory (mom) when I was little.
Stranger things have happened.
"Homely as a mud fence"-one of my favorites.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
On my current job the homeowner fixes lunch every day.
On many remodeling jobs you get to know their dogs, hold their babies, learn about their extended families (some things you didn't really need to hear) put air in their tires, tighten an annoying loose lockset, oil the garage door rollers (because even you have a hard time lifting the door or listening to the screech), answer the same questions over and over again.
Lunch is nice.
And, Mike Smith used to bring a six-pack of mini-donuts at coffee break.
With my name in the referral usually goes this caveat.
He likes baked goods. (no ####)
He also loves baseball. (good seat)
You can trust this guy. (loyal, helpful, obedient............)
That first phonecall or meeting usually sets the groundwork.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yes I just reread what I wrote- I meant to say mouth, but I "misremembered" what I should of said.
Guess you're not supposed to see how worn down the teeth are on the old nag thats been given.
Walter
Think how wonderful your client might feel if your were to very graciously and enthusiasticly accept their offer.
That sounds awesome Mrs. Johnson! Me and the guys will really appreciate that! Not many of our client ever are so kind!
Instead of being Hazlett (no one has ever appreciated me, so I am going to do the same for the rest of my life)
Gees dude..........and get over the Christmas bonus thing.
There are actually employers out there that sincerely appreciate the TEAM players that work with them and are kind and appreciative enough to SHOW it.
You are not an employer anyway so I'm not sure where you get of discussing topics such that relate to employer/employee relationships.
Anyone can exploit subs................[email protected]
"You are not an employer anyway so I'm not sure where you get of discussing topics such that relate to employer/employee relationships.Anyone can exploit subs................"That's an uncalled for cheap shot that adds nothing to the discussion. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's an uncalled for cheap shot that adds nothing to the discussion.
That's quite a statement coming from you Blue!
You call it what you want. I call it the facts.
Stephen has little regard for people in general. That's my opinion.[email protected]
Actually, everything he said indicates to me that he cares quite a bit about his job and the people on it are a big part of his success. They might not understand that, but Stephen knows it and works them dilligently. To me, he's a great leader, even if he doesn't know it.Stephen is exactly the kind of employer I would (and have) seek out. I don't want to hire on with a crew that sits around and eats donuts. I want to work with a serious craftsman that will get the job done, asap, and get me home, while providing me and my family with a solid future. Some employees like donuts. I like dollars. I know guys like Stephen will make me more money in the long haul. The employers who think giving donuts and telling jokes and talking about the movies last night is a substitute for getting down and dirty and getting the job done is just kidding themselves. When the folks in the neighborhood see Stephen's crew: they are working, not eating donuts. That earns them more jobs and the workers will out sell the donut eaters five times over. Oh yeah....the workers don't usually throw their donut bags all over the neighborhood either. If I was looking for an employer, Stephen would be first on my list. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 2/15/2008 4:17 am by Jim_Allen
Here's and excerpt from the book First, Break all the Rules. Lets see how donuts fit into the equation.PG 48THE FOCUS OF GREAT MANAGERSGreat managers...know that the core of a strong and vibrant workplace can be found in the first six questions:1) Do I know what is expected of me at work?
2)Do I have he materials and equipment I need to do my work right?
3)At work, do I have he opportunity to do what I do best every day?
4)In the last seven days, have I received recognition or praise for doing good work?
5)Does my supervisor, or someone at work, seem to care about me as a person?
6)Is there someone at work who encourages my development? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm in the camp of people who think this donut/pizza/coffee thing is being way overthought.
I have seen crews that had to have their donuts, and were slobs about it. And worse than underappreciative, they expected and demanded them. This is a crew that has donuts on their mind, not work, and is not my kind of crew. I don't think that an extended gab fest and litter drop on a routine basis is a sign of a tight, focused crew.
However, I think that an occasional treat for the crew is a nice thing to do, and can be a nice break from the routine. If the owner wants to do this once in a while, I see nothing wrong with being gracious. I let them know it is appreciated, but I also let them know if it starts to go too far, in a nice way.
To paraphrase Frued: 'Sometimes a donut is just a donut.'
blue,
mike just ordered first break all the rules.
I just returned my copy to the library.
i am hoping once mike reads his ----the 3 of us ( and everybody/anybody else) could discuss it.
for now-- i see a pretty serious flaw with the basic premise( it's self contradicting)
BTW---- it's interesting to note the various styles here.- mikes' style as an employer is a little more paternalistic than I would like---- he is EXACTLY the kind of guy i WISH I had worked for 25 years ago-but never did---- but we wouldn't be a good long term fit now.
your style is kind of on the other side of the spectrum----- i am somewhere in between---but MUCH closer to your style.--- so i like to hear different perspectives.
eric has a different perspective--and he DEFINITELY doesn't like me--and that's fine also. i am pretty sure what he dislikes about me has nothing to do with xmas bonuses, LOL.
We work a different place every 2-3 days. largely simple, repetitive and hugely physical tasks.-----( also dirty)-- how we approach that is going to be, by it's nature, quite different than someone who spends weeks or months on one project.
I gave a proposal to a customer last fall------ i am holding it now and the date is 10-31-07
my wife sees the customer most every day at school---saw her one day last week and the customer dope slapped herself on the forhead and said" janet---we keep meaning to call stephen and ask him something"---janet forgets all about it for a couple days before she mentions it to me-- i wait a few more days to give the custome a chance to call me--and finally I call them last weekend. Of course-when i call them I pretty much know WHY they wanna talk to me
the roof is to be done as a layover(one of perhaps 3 we will do this year). we will start back full time 3-18-08. the next project i sell will be scheduled for the first week of september. If I had waited for the customer to call meTHIS year-they might not have called untill MAY--at which time I would concievably have to tell them we couldn't do it untill 2009----------so- i tell the customer we will either do it approx. the first week of september---or we will do it back to back to back with the other 3 layovers in march-----so, weather permitting we will try to start full time 3-10-08
long story to get to this point--but the customer is happy with EITHER spot on the schedule.
THAT's the level of happiness i want from the customer--not based on weather we ate their donuts or their bundt cake-just happy that WE did their roof( they certainly have other choices available to them)
the types of people who will do this work---probably would not last a week with mike
and mikes guys----would not be happy knowing that starting in march/april the first 2 hours of every day are going to be spent tearing off a non-walkable roof---for the forseeable future
so-- i don't think it's smart to assume that the same methods will necissarily work with both crews---but SOME of the same methods might work.
that's why it doesn't bother me if eric would like to hit me in the face with a roofing hatchet, LOL
I used to do some work as a subcontractor for a local garage builder(3rd generation business--80-100 garages a year--for a while i roofed em all)------every friday i would go in and pick up my check for the roofs we did the previous week---and i would talk to the old guy who was president of the company--ask his opinion-his advice on how to handle one of my customers or another
well-one day he told me something more important than every thing else"steve-you didn't think you would get through life with everybody liking you did ya" ?
best wishes all,
stephen
without putting words in eric's mouth..
it's not a question of eric not liking you..
he just wouldn't work for you....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike- i wouldn't expect someone like eric to work with me
eric posesess, i believe, a range of trade skills that I am sure totally eclipse mine
but I don't NEED those specific trade skills in my business--so i am certainley not going to pay for them.
If I needed( or even wanted) that range of trade skills- i might structure things quite differently
he is probably quite correct- I would be a HORRIBLE employer for some like him
but---- I am probably a pretty good employer for someone quite different. i am looking for a skill set and personal attributes quite different from those that ERIC values. I don'tthink that makes either of us intrinsicly BAD-we are just pursuing different goals
really-- there is only 2 things i would take exception with-Eric made some statements/assumptions about my subcontractor/IRS relationship without having the facts
AND-- he claims,I think that i have low regaurd for people in general. THAT I think is simply not fair--as I have elaborated on countless times---- my business exist to primarily serve the population of ONE specific neighborhood-and has for 20 years--and if I hire an employee---I want them to learn and eventually go into business for themself--- i have a higher view of THEM-than they may posees at the time.- that extends to the subs as well. 12 years ago a young man stopped at one of my projects--I was working alone. the young man had a $30 some thousand dollar brand new dump truck----he wanted to know if i needed someone to haul away the debris----that relationship has evolved into a 12 year long involvement. He now owns 2 trucks and contracts roofing himself---but when i call--he leaves HIS roofing projects and comes and personally cleans up my tear-offs! Once my new dump trailer arives- i won't be subbing out any clean-ups to him---but I WILL be subbing out some simpler roofing projects
when i met this guy--he was in his very early 20's-recently married-had a new son and had taken a big risk buying that truck( his truck payment was more than the apartment he was renting!)-- now he has 2 trucks, employees of his own, owns his own house-- which he had the forsite to buy to get his 2 kids now-into a better highschool---all those things he did on his OWN-and i am proud to have been associated with him for 12 years---and when we meet now--he STILL asks me--" what do you think-i am thinking of doingXYZ-what would you do?"-again-he did those things on his OWN.
BTW--in his prime this guy was frequently cleaning up and hauling away 60 plus square of shingles a day( between me and 8-10 other contractors at $10-12/ square-$120 in tipping fees. I can't imagine geting out of bed each day with that kind of work load in front of me--but HE did it--because he had to and he had goals
I don't know-- but i think eric feels I don't respect a guy like that-when in fact i think the reverse is true.
Hey--gotts run mike, litterally.-it's time for me to be humiliated by my senior citezen running partners, LOL
Best wishes,all
stephen
"and if I hire an employee---I want them to learn and eventually go into business for themself--- i have a higher view of THEM-than they may posees at the time.- that extends to the subs as well."Oops. I used to have that faulty line of reasoning myself. At some point in my career I let it go. Then, a few years later than that, I read the book and found out that it's a mistake to hire with that mindset. I think the mistaken thought process is that I wanted motivated workers and all motivated workers want to get to the top. That ain't true though. Some just want to be motivated workers that remain workers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have worked for four contractors as a general employee:1) JDB - AWESOME remodeling contractor in MN, he brought his crew and subs a snack about 50% of the days...it was always good for 15 minutes of regrouping and considering scheduling, etc. I left and went back twice (moved out of the area). I still consider him a good friend and I have no doubts he would hire me back in a heartbeat. His clients LOVED him and us, and routinely gave us food, beer, etc. We were walking JDB ads with shirts, fleeces, hats, sweatshirts, etc. So were his clients AND his subs. This dude is an AWESOME businessman.2) GB - Contractor in MT, sucked, the projects normally were done to an acceptable standard despite his best efforts. Never bought his employees anything, most jobs ended up with pissed off customers because he was a cheap bastard and would ruin a relationship over $200 on a $100K job. I quit after 6 months.3) PG - Timberframe shop, AWESOME guys to work for, brought us food at the shop regularly. Anytime we were on site ALL lunches, dinners, and booze were provided happily. I still get invited to christmas parties and their clients LOVE them.4) G - Timberframers, treat employees awesome, buy lunches, snacks and end of day beer on a regular basis. Good friends still...actually headed up there now to help out with a project.What's my point? I think there is a direct connection between doing little things that make your employees like you and doing the little things that make your CLIENTS like you.
Jesse- that's an interesting post--' because i was under the impression you felt my willingness to buy lunch for the crew EVERY day, provide gatorade, smokes etc. was enabling.
we might never agree on this-but the 3 employers you liked--how would they have reacted if you and the crew complained about the donuts, the soda, the tshirts, the carhart jackets????
it is entirely probable that you can teach me something about this( although keep in mind we may well be dealing with totally different mindsets between montana and urban midwest.
Best wishes, stephen
we might never agree on this-but the 3 employers you liked--how would they have reacted if you and the crew complained about the donuts, the soda, the tshirts, the carhart jackets????
Stephen, with all due respect, what kind of low-life does something like that? Do you seriously hang out with people like that? If so I might suggest a better class of associates!
I've worked around construction workers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, musicians, business people.......you name it and I've yet to meet someone that thought the way you and blue do on this subject.
You mentioned in an earlier post - actually went back and copy/pasted the quote;
actually, i have a crew I have subcontracted a lot of stuff OUT to. Occasionally i would bring THEM donuts----and it quite quickly got out of hand. In the workers mind it quickly became an entitlement. they EXPECTED donuts EVERY day--and if they DIDN'T get them they were pizzed off--really bitter------and there was no pleasing them. they would complain because the donuts were too good---too much jelly in th jelly donuts--the cream sticks were stuffed to full--the apple fritters were too big etc.
In short there is no pleasing some people, LOL
Sounds to me like you got some real losers there! What kind of person would complain about getting something given to them? I'd give a nickle to hear someone complain to me about the size of the apple fritter that I just bought for him/her!
Hell is that town your living in void of all manners and etiquette!
Doug
doug---------
you make some fair points---quite fair.
I would ask you to keep in mind some things
most/many of the tradesman on breaktime have done some roofing at one time or another-many ,perhaps started out doing it.
Most of those people, i think , would tell you they are absolutely delighted NOT to be roofing-- are delighted never to touch a shingle again. they would probably also tellyou-that it is a type of work best done at a certain age--done as a summer job in college-- or done as a young man while you were working your way into a carpentry career
I think you and I would be in agreement on that
now-- think of the people who are DRAWN to roofing--the kind of people looking to get into a type of work most of the people here on breaktime are delighted NEVER to do again.
you are a reasonable guy Doug-- do you think the guys LOOKING to go into this type of work share a lot of the characteristics of the doctors,lawyers,teachers,musicians, and business people you mentioned?--no really they don't.
some of them might some day-some of them will some day----but not right now.
now-the construction workers you mentioned-carpenters etc.- i have every some of the people we work with confidence some of them will get to that point as well.-remember how many of the people here on breaktime started out doing some roofing early in their careers?--- I suspect they could also tell you about some of the "OTHER" things going on in their lives at that time as well--issues with dependability, girlfriends, recreational chemical use, transitional periods in their lives etc.
I will tell you about the crew i have subbed the most to--when I met them 3 years ago or so-there were 4 men-the owner and 3 others.- their work is fine-the owner is a young man who had actually started his own business-and then later bought out the man who had given him his first job. At this time there are 5 men working there---3 trucks,plus a dump truck,plus a dump trailer( they actually have much more equipment than they need)---yes I 1099 their business--but the owners guys are on his payroll, get actual pay checks-are covered by workers comp etc.--as far as roofing goes----it's a good gig
however- in the 3 years i have worked with them-they have grown from 4 men to 5 men--but only the owner and one other man remain from the original 4
the owner of course is a given--he holds the whole thing together--the other guy--let me tell you about him. he went to high school with the owner--they live right next door to each other---in 2006 he actually quit--and was re-hired----here is what happened.--he quit-to take a job as an apprentice union carpenter. 5 days a week at a buck or so less than he was earning as a roofer.--he worked more than 4 months as an apprentice carpenter-less than 2 months to go to his first bump up in pay-------------------- and he quits the union carpentry gig because it didn't pay enough!-he also didn't like being the low man on the totem pole and having to do some of the packing up/sweeping/scut work at the end of the day.--so he quit
previously--- the owner of the roofing sub co. and I were really happy for him---we knew that that union carpentry gig was a better long term prospect than roofing----and we simply can't believe he was short sighted enough to QUIT it--and go back to roofing.---we both agree that we would have given our right nut for the opportunity he quit.
so--that's who we are dealing with--people who presently-make bad personal decisions--who don't YET have good long term thinking skills--they think from paycheck to paycheck.- it doesn't make them bad people--it just means that they haven't learned, or refuse to use some of the critical thinking skills that other people learn at age 16.
on a more humerous note--none of the roofing subcontracting crews are actually from "MY" town (Akron)----they are from 2 adjacent towns-suburbs really-Stow and Talmadge. Stow is an area that was more rural 20 years ago--but has become almost entirely sub divided and vinyl sided.
I would like to thank you-you are a reasonable guy-and you give me things to think about-- i am not certain how much weight i should give the Iowa perspective HERE- but you give me things to consider.
best wishes,
stephen
I think you are describing a rough frame crew LOL! Lets just say that if we hired people with social skills, the rough frames would jump from 200 hours to 400 hours. If we hire people with framing skills, we get the hours down but we can't bring them out in public. In my case, when I ran a crew, it was all business. We worked a 7 hr day and it was all sprint. You could set your watch to my time schedule and I never wore a watch. I'd arrive at 7:59 and be going full tilt at 8am. I stopped at 10 for a coffee and sandwhich and was going full tilt at 10:15. I stopped for lunch at noon and was going full steam at 12:30. At 3:25 we started rolling up and I was in my truck, heading home to my kids at exactly 3:30. I apologize to no one for that and if you didn't like that program, you didn't have to work on my crew. The guys that hung with me, got the benefit of a safe, sane job and they made money because we were money. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
yes-- that's pretty much the situation.
of course-- you had the "luxury" of being able to hide YOURS on a new construction site, LOL.
mine-- i have to take into a pretty nice older,family, residential neighborhood.
of course-what ever house we work on---we are simultaneously "auditioning" to work on all the neighbors houses as well
and---in my particular circumstances i usually know the customers or the neighbors personally---so we have to put on a good show.
"must have drivers license"-well that right there screens out a LOT--though i had one guy last week tell me" don't worry- i don't have a license, but i drive anyway"-- Like THAT was supposed to re-assure me. I figure possesion of a drivers license is an excellent screening tool to determine a bare bones minimum of self controll in a persons life. If they don't have a license-well that's a pretty low bar to get over--if ya can't get over it--not much I can do with you
"must have transportation"--same level of screening effectiveness as "must have drivers license"
it IS funny--that somethings ya wouldn't even have to think about in othr industries-like a drivers license and the ability to get to work---are like GOLD sometimes in this one.
2 of the guys have babies on the way--one already has a 2 year old daughter.- they need to work and earn-- OK!- i understand that--been there---done that---it's why i went into this business myself 20 years ago--time to earn!!!!- i have college tuition to pay for 2 sons-----the new hires have young ones to provide for----so lets get to work and get down to business!
BTW-- screening tool #3-- I ask them how THEY would flash a chimney--and then i keep my mouth shut.---- they will usually walk right through the standard method used in this area, which is not that good---but if they even MENTION Karnak- i know I can't let 'em anywhere near a chimney!--- doesn't mean they might not still be able to do 80% of the roof top work-just means i can't yet let them work on a chimney(if ever)-and at the very least-some training sessions will be in order.
Really,really bored with winter,
stephen
I used to have similar standards Stephen. I never asked about a license but transportation was a must: no walkers, bikers or wives dropping them off. I also was big on hiring family men. In my later years, I started favoring older guys. 40 years old and up went to the top of the list! My "trick" question was "how long is a stud?". If they stammered or asked me a question instead of saying 92 5/8", they were toast because I didn't hire remodelers. Remodelers would say "8 foot". Framers knew they were 92 5/8" because they come in piles of 500 per bunk or so and theres usually 3 bunks minimum and after you carry every freakin' one of them on your shoulder and your shoulder grows a mat of hair to keep it from bleedin', you'll never, ever forget that number! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thats a good one. I would look you in the eye and ask how tall is a wall?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"If they stammered or asked me a question instead of saying 92 5/8", they were toast because I didn't hire remodelers. Remodelers would say "8 foot"."No.. a remodeler would be smart enough to know you didn't give enough information. Which is typical for a framerdon't make me use a smiley face
Barry E-Remodeler
My "trick" question was "how long is a stud?". If they stammered or asked me a question instead of saying 92 5/8", they were toast because I didn't hire remodelers.
Thats probably a good question when all your building is trac homes, dont know if I've seen a 8' wall in a house in some time now.
And it really aint all that tricky of a question!
Doug
You would be amazed at how many "experienced carpenters" I have interviewed who could not answer the question what is the stud length on a standard eight foot tall wall. Virtually 80% say 8 foot. I then ask them would they like the apprentice position we are hiring for.
Bruce
hiker....
standard stud grade 2x4 stud here would be 96"
last ten or so years you can get pre-cuts
of 92 5/8
104 5/8
all houses framed around here until about 10 years ago .. the first thing the framer did was give his cut man the stud length and he started cutting studs
so.. yeah.. trick question
and ... further
i often build garages with 96" studs...... wind up with 8' 6" above the foundation wall..... 9' above the floorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Pre cuts have been around for a long time. I was humping them for my father in NY when I was eight (30 years ago). I have lived in TX for nearly 18 years now and every house I have seen where "experience carps" would have worked all have precuts. Regardless of the existence of precuts. Please note the phrasing of my question-Stud length on a "8 foot wall".
Not a trick question at all if you frame a bunch, particularly if you consider yourself an experienced carpenter.
Bruce
not so...
here is blue's statement:
<<<<<My "trick" question was "how long is a stud?". If they stammered or asked me a question instead of saying 92 5/8", they were toast because I didn't hire remodelers. Remodelers would say "8 foot". Framers knew they were 92 5/8" >>
no mention of what size for an 8' wall....
so... i'd have asked blue a question and not gotten hired
but then... jim and i agreed a long time ago not to hire either one of usMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You are correct, Jim posed it as a trick question. I posed the question in post 82 as an 8' wall. I do not believe in trick questions, but I do believe in appropriate questions for someone based on experience level.
How did this thread go from donuts to "fargin trick questions" about studs. Oh the mysteries of breaktime. Must have something to do with global warning.
Bruce
Actually, it wasn't really a "trick" question. It was a question that clearly smoked out the real experience of a guy that had just told me that he had framed for two or three years for xyz company. The guy knew I was a framer building custom homes, so they tailor their answers to fit their perception of what they think I want to hear. After getting an understanding of their true value, I often would say something like: "Sorry, I'm looking for someone that has two solid years framing on a rough frame crew...". Before I could finish my statement, they'd chirp in that they did and they know all about it. I'd finish "....remodelers have different tools, systems and procedures and I respect both I am specifically looking for a guy that has new house experience". The guy would then chirp in that it's the same. Out would come my question.I would ask what is the length of the stud and of course I would accept a normal intelligent question or answer such as: what size wall? That would be my answer. I would then say, most of the houses we frame, we have 8' ceilings. What size stud do we use? Then, the sharper ones would start calculating...some would stammer and ask,,,,96? errr, wait....94"....etc. Basically, I would accept any intelligent answer: 92 5/8 or 104 5/8 or 116 5/8 etc. Hell, I'd be very impressed if he answered 200" or 212" for a two story foryer or great room. Anything that proved that he'd been on a new house frame! And please remodelers: don't take offense. My current crop of guys are horrible remodelers. It's a different mindset, tooling and process. I've done both and I know the differnce. When I'm remodeling, I'm looking for remodelers. When I'm building new, I'm looking for dedicated new house framers. When I'm building custom new: I'm looking for custom framers. When I'm building production new: I'm looking for production framers. All the groups are different. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i nu dat..
i was just defending my position with hiker...
after 20 years of cutting studs to 92 1/2 i sure was happy to find pre-cutsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I nu dat u nu. I was just answering all the others and trying to clarify the idea. And of course, I had to add the disclaimer so the remodelers won't hate me (more).How's the winter treating you up there? I've enjoyed watching the golfers all winter here (I'm on the 17th green). I collect golf balls now for a hobby LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
we got to Orlando two weeks ago
good weather, great accomodations,
family all well......... and golf
so.... spring is just around the corner here
18 deg yesterday morning
50 deg this morning
and spring training comming up fast
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In that vein I had to explain to an archy that when using common precut studs and industry standard construction practices an 8' wall is not 8' in height , but actually measures 97 1/8 ". She couldn't understand why her carefully drawn out details didn't work .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Jim;
Your comment about social skills tickled a nerve. I've done this a few years with a few crews. Some of the work and some of the workers could be pretty rough.
Last year I took my wife on a couple jobs. She would bring me a tool I needed, then stand there and complain because I didn't say thank you properly. Or, she would do something and want me to praise her work for 10 minutes. I had to try to explain that's not how the system works. I won't go into the day she was holding up an end of a 12' piece of rock for a ceiling and I told her she was doing it wrong. LOL.
I found a new helper who charges more, but we get along better. She got a job in an office.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
don.... now dat's funny !
<<<<Last year I took my wife on a couple jobs. She would bring me a tool I needed, then stand there and complain because I didn't say thank you properly. Or, she would do something and want me to praise her work for 10 minutes. I had to try to explain that's not how the system works. I won't go into the day she was holding up an end of a 12' piece of rock for a ceiling and I told her she was doing it wrong.>>>>
there's another parallel situation... like......
trying to teach your wife to play golf
some things are better left to the prosMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Stephen
A couple things
most/many of the tradesman on breaktime have done some roofing at one time or another-many ,perhaps started out doing it.
Your probably right, I never did it as a full time roofer but when I had my own business I took on about 4 to 6 roofs a year for filler, could always get roof jobs! That was many years ago but even last year when a guy at work needed his second home roofed I took it on, complete 3 layer tear off, resheet, shingle. 10/12 pitch, no deadlines. Didn't like it as much as I used to but.....
think of the people who are DRAWN to roofing
This might be the comment that I thought funny(not haha funny but telling funny). Why do you think of roofers as someone on the lower scale of things? I know firemen, policemen, business men that fit on the lower end of the scale but I also know some in those same professions that are on the higher end of the scale. Same as roofers or carpenters or..........name the profession.
Being around small town Iowa most of my life I'm sure I'm not privy to the things that go on in the real world like you but I have managed to pick up a few things over time. Around here when someone bid a roof they were usually the guy/or company that actually did the work, I'm sure there are some that sub it all out now but I don't pay a lot of attention to that business.
While living down in TX for 3.5 years I did see a whole different scenario. You had a guy come out and give you a bid for a roof and he then subbed it to someone else who inturn subbed it to someone else who may sub it to his cousins the Hernandez brothers. That seamed like the norm until I met a guy that when I asked who would be preforming the work he told me that his guys did the work, his employees did all the work, funny that guy was from Iowa, probably a coincidence but ironic none the less.
I saw some roofers that I wouldn't want hanging around in my neighborhood but most of them, even though unsupervised by the guy getting the gig still cleaned up, didn't make any offensive gestures to the hot chicks running by, had some presentation value to themselves - did a good job and came across as professionals, as much as one can when doing a shiddy, dirty, tiring job.
I've never pigionholed any set of people the way that you do roofers, assuming that you know way more of them then I maybe your right and maybe I'm lucky in that I haven't had the exposure that you have.
so--that's who we are dealing with--people who presently-make bad personal decisions--who don't YET have good long term thinking skills--they think from paycheck to paycheck.- it doesn't make them bad people--it just means that they haven't learned, or refuse to use some of the critical thinking skills that other people learn at age 16.
Got news for ya Stephen, that's true of every profession, bar none! Its your choice if those are the ones that you chose to deal with, hang out with, I wont and don't have to but others may not care, as I used to tell my ex, your life aint gonnna last forever, why do you want to complicate it/waste time with BS (maybe thats why she dumped my dumb azz?).
i am not certain how much weight i should give the Iowa perspective HERE
Your loss
Oh btw, I had some toquito wraps this morning. Using the hog sausage that was given to me by the plumber that is doing the lake house that we're working on, I in turn gave him some deer burger that I had, in spite of that we still managed to get a few hours of work in last Friday. Thinking I may waste Monday and stop and get the whole crew some baggles because there was a couple cast iron whirlpools that were being replaced in this house and some of the guys helped me load/unload them to reuse. You and blue did offer up a bit of humor though so not a total waste.
I would like to thank you-you are a reasonable guy
That's funny because nobody thinks that
Doug
"we might never agree on this-but the 3 employers you liked--how would they have reacted if you and the crew complained about the donuts, the soda, the tshirts, the carhart jackets????"Well, a person like that never would have lasted where I worked. No, you don't need to be perfectly groomed, but you do need to wear somewhat clean clothes and be polite and pleasant around clients. If an employee bitches about the donuts you brought, what are they going to act like around your clients?
jesse,
" If an employee bitches about the donuts you brought, what are they going to act like around your clients" ?
that's it in a nutshell!
I saw a BIGpickup truck on the highway on thursday( somewhat short of monster truck status though). On the back window was the distinctive chevy emblem--and within the emblem was the following phrase" Lift It, fat bee eye,tee see aitches Can't Jump"
sorry--- had to phrase it that way to get it past tauton.
think about that,LOL---- the guy in that truck---do I really want that truck parked anywhere NEAR my customers house?---and even with alternative transportation---do i even want a guy with that thought process anywhere near our job????????
but we are often dealing with workers pretty close to that guy. that's why we WANT to provide them with t shirts, carhart coats, willing to buy them lunch, smokesetc.
if you think about it--thre is a reaon they are looking for a job in roofing---instead of timberframing or remodeling etc.
and conversley-- there is a reason I arrange things the way i do. I know pretty much who i am dealing with--and they aren't timberframers or remodelers or finish carpenters---they may be someday--but they aren't yet. they maybe need to learn somethings that you and I may have grasped at 15--but they may not cotton on to untill they are 30--if ever
here is the kicker--- if they HAD learned those things--- they probably wouldn't be looking for jobs as roofers. If they DO learn those things with me- i think it's best for them eventually that they then start moving on.( worse for me--better for them long term)
thanks for your imput.
BTW--- you where somewhat correct about the"enabling"-- business wise however-- it's a better deal for me to "enable" them--and to get the work done.
best wishes,
stephen
Edited 2/16/2008 8:18 am ET by Hazlett
"if you think about it--thre is a reaon they are looking for a job in roofing"Well, if you have just come out and said that we could have stopped beating around the bush on this thread. It's not like I was going to say it....Good luck with your kindergarten class. ;-)
LOL- yes-that is often about the size of it
however-- the work still needs to be done.
luckily i have a live in consultant- my wife is an elementary school teacher!
you would be suprised how often she tells me----most of the problems we both face---are the same.- ADD, hyperactive, focus problems,right brain left brain, different ways of learning etc.
Her problem students--and the causes of those problems---are the same ones we have to deal with in alot of the workers.
i am just trying to get the roofs done---but somehow i have to deal with a lot of stuff that has been hobbling some of these people for 20 years.
no easy answer----because no matter how ya slice it---this is not really an attractive job.
but-you knew that as well
best wishes,
stephen
Unless one has a roofing company and has to hire people to do roofing and rip offs i dont think they can ever understand what it must be like, For years i had hard cases and wild young men working for me, There not the kinda people that can think ahead for lunch or coffee. My biggest reward is when a young guy goes to my sons and tells them there dad was great to work for and gave them there first chance or start. I noticed the crew was harder on a goldbricker then i ever was, One time i saw one of my workers walking down the street I asked him how come he was not working??? He said the crew was mad he did not pull his weight and said if he did not leave they were gonna beat the chit outta him. If a guy showed up late or not at all the guys gave him the wrong address for the next day.
yes bobby,
i was actually thinking of you a day or so ago.
what you just wrote sums things up pretty neatly.
i was pretty sure that you would know exactly what i was talking about and looking for.
BTW some of the advice i have gotten here on this subject---is akin to me offering carpentry advice based on the 6 or 8 doors i might hang a year. some of the techniques or attitudes I might have based on a few doors a year---would seem pretty impractical for someone doing ---oh say 2000 doors a year
catchya later,-and thanks for the input
stephen
" some just want to be motivated workers that remain workers"
yes-bingo!-good point
and that employee might have a horrible experience working with me
square pegs for square holes--disproves the first sentence of this post.
specifically i am thinking of Frank( who came to you from a career in something totally different?)
somebody else- may have worked at something for years-or worked at roofing for years--and then they reach a point where they realize something is gonna have to change or they are going to have the same experience over and over. bingo---that's the point of awareness i am looking for--not a specific skill set-THAT point of awareness.
10 years ago-when i found breaktime here- one day Imentioned that I typically don't even ever meet my customers--in fact i would prefer NOT to meet them--they are kind of an annoyance.- Jim Blodgett was shocked by that-kind of chastised me for it actually.
I let that percolate for years---and tell you what- i STILL don't really like meeting people or new customers- but i have learned that actually i am pretty good at it-- it's actually become kind of one of my strengths. but I have learned that i have to arrange things so that I meet them when I have the energy level to concentrate-not when I am physically exhausted.
square pegs for square holes-- one of the guys( roger) i am looking forward to working with----- he is QUITE clear about what he wants, what he can do,what he wants to do and has done- OK-- that's the nitch to have him in-- it would be a mistake to treat him the same as john-- the MFA who is itching to learn and change and earn.
guyess what- i already learned a 2 specific roofing tricks from roger----and i am MORE than certain I am gonna learn a ton of things from John
roger validates"first break all the rules"-john totally disproves it
hmmm on second thought- i might have to revise that opinion-- it might be that john--instead of being a square peg for a square hole--- is actually a "change" shaped peg for a "change" shaped hole---- it might be that his MO-is constantly chageing and acquiring new experiences--perhaps he will do this for a while--and then in a year he will go off to be a whitewater rafting guide or something---which will be fine with me--because I know i will have done the best i can for him--while he was with us.
stephen
Stephen, I gotta admit, that might have been the most confusing post I've ever read from you LOL! And I wouldn't blame you....it's a very confusing topic.First, I wan't to say that Frank came to me from tool and die building and he knew from his childhood on that he wanted to build houses. When he came to me, he was taking his first step toward that goal. I was looking for a carpenter, but I hired a housebuilder. I was okay with that though because I'd already accepted that every employee that I ever hired was transient. So far, that is still true. At that time, I was not aware of the book or how to properly hire for talent. In fact, I rarely was able to ask the right questions and most often hired everyone, then sorted through them by firing them. Frank didn't know if he was talented at building or carpentry. I didn't know then, I know now. He is a great builder and knows how to organize and execute the entire building process. He is five times (probably ten times) better than me at building. I'm several times better at carpentry though....too bad I'm not out there anymore. I got lucky. So did Frank. I did learn later to hire talent: the right talent. If I was looking for a carpenter, I wouldn't hire a guy who wanted to be a business owner. I had a carpenter and tried to make him a foreman. He was miserable. We cut him loose and he was a good carpenter for our competition and they didn't try to make him a foreman. He would have nixed that. When I was young, I couldn't be a carpenter. I had to be a foreman carpenter. I had the talent to run a job but no talent for being on a crew. You seem to be hoping to hire "strivers". I'm not sure why but I think you are trying to avoid someone that wants to use you for their lifelong employer because you don't want to make a committment as the employer. You probably understand the significance of that position and don't want to lead anyone astray. That's my guess. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue----- that post was probably so confusing- because my thoughts on the matter were evolving as I typed it
bad literary practice.
stephen
Jim,
To go on now about "sitting around eating donuts and chewing the fat, blah, blah" is being dishonest to the topic.
We're both entitiled to our opinion.
Stephen has all subs working for him as best as I can tell. Aside from bending the all to well known IRS rules...........ah, lets not even go there.
His statements of the past tell me he is not good employer material. Compensation is just that, I gave you something (my labor/time and you give me something back)
The employer that believes it begins and ends there is lost and will have a roundhouse of employees coming and going.
Appreciation is another thing. Benefits, vacation and sick day. Christmas bonus? Heck, why not. I appreciate our relationship, I really do and this is how I choose to show it.
I beieve that you are exceptional. Now the employee starts to feel the same way! That is team building and nurturing a business with dedictaed long term employees.
You're lucky you got a paycheck. BULL.
I have a boss like that currently. He trusts me with alot of financial stuff in the company. He goes on vacation now and leaves me to run things as needed. But, he doesn't show and appreciation whatsoever. Rarely even a verbal acknowledgment.
Who the hell needs a job like that? I'm good and I know it and so does he. What's your problem? Daddy make you feel worthless growing up? Get over it.
Maybe I just got a nerve struck.
Eric[email protected]
Eric-- the subs I work with and have worked with in the past-- work with me for years
and each and every year ALL of the crews do MANY more roofs on their own accounts than they do with me---roughly 4-5 times as many of their own roofs
the crew i use most often-totally eclipses my yearly volume-and historically the work I personally do each year eclipses what I have ever subbed out
so-please explain to me how i am abusing any IRS subcontractor rules.
Is it possible you have made an assumption about what i do-or my attitude-that is in-accurate?
best wishes,
stephen
Edit--------Eric---you are correct about one thing. ther are many people I would not be a good employer for. that's ok by me
there are some people i would be a great employer for
basically i try to give people the opportunity i was looking for in 1980 or so. start with nothing-work hard---learn a trade and how to go into business for yourself.--that's the career path i see as best in this trade(roofing)---if i was a custom home builder or a kitchen installer-- i might handle things differently-but basically i try to give them the opportunity I wanted at that age-- i can only teach them what I personally know. I can't teach them to be a good carpenter- i can't teach them to build stairs or hang crown molding- i am not in that business.
It is ok with me-if someone wants to be a career employee-perhaps learn as much as they can about carpentry and really excell at their craft.- that's fine with me---but it is not a career path I can offer them
up and out. up into carpentry-or up into contracting-- but i just don't have a long term career path for employees. i have a certain skill set i need---and i can hire all day long at a wage level of X---but I am paying in the range of 1.4X to 1.6X------ but in order to get that--- we have to work a certain way. it's fine with me-that someone like you would be looking for a long term employer with a clear career track----that, however is not what i have to offer
what i have to offer is-that while a worker is here--they get 1.4X to 1.6x, AND in the pricess i will do my best to teach them what I DO know( which is how they might turn that into approx. 8X by working for themselves)
the guy i have highest hopes for this year?-28 years old, master degree in fine arts, needs to start earning AND wants time to pursue his art. he is also a rock climber and former tri-athlete and is totally stoked to do this work-really,really excited. incredulous that i will start him at X and that I expect him to be at 1.2x within a few weeks.
BTW- if you have a chance---read the book blue mentioned" first break all the rules'- and let me know what YOU think. you input might be even mor valuable than mikes or blues'
Best wishes,
stephen
Edited 2/15/2008 7:20 am ET by Hazlett
that's harsh...
and you're out of touch
stephen is moving on to a new plateau.... he's trying to recruit , train, and retain real employees
he's feeling his way... soliciting adviceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Interesting, reading this thread, I have realized that there are some people here I would be happy to work for and some people here I wouldn't work for no matter what.
Just like real life.
Jesse
I used that same (well very close) line on here about 5 or 6 years ago and it still stands!
Doug
BTW, I'm eating the damn donuts if someone brings them and I'm going to thank them, same goes if I stop and buy bagels - some people just have to complicate everything!
that's harsh...
and you're out of touch
stephen is moving on to a new plateau.... he's trying to recruit , train, and retain real employees
he's feeling his way... soliciting advice
I must have missed something Mike.
Anyone that states that empoyees should be lucky they have a job, or should be satisfied simply that they got paid this week is out of touch and harsh at face value.
I don't believe Stephen's attitude will enable him ever to find loyal dedicated team players, that would be willing to invest themselves in long term employment with him.
Harsh? Maybe; I call it the facts as I see them.
He's got a long way to go.
Eric[email protected]
JC,
You let him bring what ever he wants.
You give him the same consideration as any other customer.
Because they are nice-you give him even better treatment.
BUT, the dollars for the job are the dollars for the job.
And if your conscience bothers you that much-make them something or give them a house warming present nicer than the one for the customer that sits in his lawn chair and drinks that one ice cold beer when it's a hundred and fifty out.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I have experienced customer provided donuts or lunches only a few times in my career.
Most of those times were on one particular job where the building owner brought donuts and coffee every day, and pizza every Friday.
I graciously accepted because it was good.
Most people on the job were in a good mood when this happened.
Some people were pigs and left their garbage strewn about, instead of in the trash can. That happens whether the food is provided on site or if the workers bring their own.
The owner did this because the overall effect was that the tradesmen on the job worked harder. They were also more likely to do small favors (changes) for the owner without running an extra ticket through the office... those add up quickly. The owner wasn't stupid, as he was also a businessman. I imagine he wrote that stuff off as a business expense... maybe he was just being nice (rare, but possible).
I never heard anyone on the jobsite complain about the donuts or pizza.
As the customer in your scenario, take the doughnuts, coffee, beer (at days end), and say thanks. We know your being paid for what your doing, we're just trying to make it a little nicer work environment.
I've done the donut thing and the coffee thing, and lunch, from all sides boss, worker and owner.
I've gotten to the point that I see lunches as a big way to waste time and money. I'd rather stuff a sandwich in the truck, but I've gotten into a little habit with my helper of picking something up. We more or less split the cost over time, but you have to stop work to run somewhere and get the food, then have lunch and then bs a little. It can easily kill over an hour. I like it better when I can just grab some coffees and some bagels at 10 and keep moving. Stop quickly at 12, maybe for a soda or pice of fruit and get back to work.
I'm getting ready to do a couple extensions and a remodel two doors down from my helper's house this year. I know his significant other is going to be there every day, and her kids will too, and the dogs. It's not something I'm looking forward to. We don't need the distractions - even if they bring donuts.
Some people appreciate the quality and the respect. Others don't and it can get out of hand. Your best bet is to do what works for you and the other workers in a particular situation. Some homeowners will be upset if you don't take their food. Others wouldn't give you a glass of water if you were on fire. Don't get hung up on it. There are no real rules. But having some manners and being polite and sincere doesn't hurt.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Consrtuction - Rentals
EJG
I'm going to stay out of the donut argument.
As for your original question: I believe that your are OBLIGATED to accept the meal. Accept it graciously and don't make an argument over it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
journeyman carpenterT
i owe you an apology-it would seem I might be the cause of your thread being de-railed
my bad
best wishes on your sales meeting,
stephen
Haz...all threads get hijacked after post #30. Donuts revived this one. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No apology necessary. As Jim said, the thread wad dead, and you revived it.<!----><!----><!---->
What I meant when I said I was "trying to change the direction this thread is going," is that I didn't want it to become another heated contest of "witty" insults that winded up in the tavern. I was just attempting to calm things down a little.<!----><!---->
I originally didn't want to ask you about this because I was afraid I might offend you, but when you said you buy your employees lunch because "some guys refuse to pack a lunch, refuse to bring their own water, they are broke by weds--and If we don't buy their lunch they are running on empty and dragging all day," it made me wonder why your employees were broke by midweek, and if (what appeared to be) a rather unmotivated crew, was a return of rather un-motivating wages. Combine that with the fact that roofing companies are notorious for paying the lowest wages on a 1099, and I can see how some people might get the wrong idea. Of course, you clarified that you pay well, and hire motivated people.<!----><!---->
(My using the word "motivated" should not be confused by anyone to mean the 'motivated slave willing to work under a taskmaster,' which is often what is sought after when this word appears in help wanted ads.)<!----><!---->-T
journeyman carpenter--
your post reminds me of something i saw on TV yesterday.-- author was plugging his book--about how the internet has shaped discourse
his point---- when you talk to someone face to face-or even on the phone-------- you get something back from the other person--there is a connection -a dialogue-a give and take
but--so he says-on the internet--it's really just YOU-the person looking at the screen---you really don't have that something from the other person------and so you project yourself onto the other person.-- person a posts something--person B later comes along and reads it---and goes from zero to 60 in a nanosecond---- " that idiot "A"--he is just like so-and so i know-that idiot--he probably eats babies and beats his wife------------"
when in reality "A" has none of those characteristics---- but rather "B" is just projecting it on to him
none of THAt is a reflection on YOU, journeyman--it's just something you wrote got me thinking
And--- yes-you are correct about typical roofer/1099" use them and screw them" type mentality. that's a pretty prevalent view-and procedure in this industry.
it's one reason i have typically preferred to work alone for 20 years.
in point of fact---the very first crew i subbed some things out to 10-12 years ago--worked pretty much like that---believe it or not--- the guys pretty much liked it that way----but it put ME in a precarious position----and so we change
as far as the guys being broke by weds--well- we are dealing with people that presently lack some of the financial skills you or I might have. they might one day have them----but for now--they are in a paycheck to paycheck mentality( which is NOT unigue to blue collar work!)
At any rate- best wishes-and thanks for taking the time to see that there was more to the story than you might reasonably have assumed
stephen
Naah, don't turn it down unless you overheard someone refer to him as Don, or Godfather...or by the first letter in his first name...
I should talk, I've never shyed away from working for anyone...
Goferit.
L
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