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Discussion Forum

to anchor the island or not?

C1802362 | Posted in General Discussion on December 16, 2003 05:50am

I’m putting a 7′ x 3′ island in the new kitchen. The top is granite. I’ve got a magnificent tile floor over radiant floor heat that I’d rather not cut into (floor was put down before island details were understood) to anchor the island.

My wife (God bless her) says the communion table at her church is almost the same size with a similiar granite top and they move it routinely around the sanctuary, so she believes the weight of the granite on the island will prevent it from going anywhere. The more I think about it, the more sense she’s making, but I’m from the ‘old’ school of nail it down ten ways to Sunday.

Any other sane voices to give some guidance?

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Replies

  1. MojoMan | Dec 16, 2003 05:53am | #1

    Seven feet by three feet with a grainite top, and you're worried about it moving? Just what do you plan to be doing on it?

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. calvin | Dec 16, 2003 06:15am | #2

      Art, any overhang of substance and toe kick on the cabinet?  The top is 3x7?  How bout the cab dimensions?  Ht of cab?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

      Quittin' Time

      1. HeavyDuty | Dec 16, 2003 07:06am | #3

        I am worry that the weight of the island may create enough deflection on the floor to crack the tiles. Am I worrying too much? Would it be any better if the island is put in first then tiled around?

      2. C1802362 | Dec 17, 2003 02:32am | #18

        The cabinet that sits under the top fully supports the top. There is no overhang (other than the standard 1"). The top is at 36" (standard). There will be GFCI's at each end of the 7' cabinet. The cabinet actually sits on top of the toekick (they're fastened together) and the tile is bedded on top of a very stiff (L/960) floor, so I hope that the tile never decides to crack.

  2. noitall | Dec 16, 2003 07:17am | #4

    I had the same concern but over a wood floor. Every once in a while we move the island when the heavy pots and pan drawers are slammed. I can live with that. As a side note however I made the mistake of leaving my cordless drill at home one day and came home to find her and a friend had taken it appart and reconfigured its arrangement. Vowed never to leave a tool in the house again. My own fault I guess. She actually did not a bad job but I would never say that to her. Who knows what else she would take apart ( was going to say screw around with but knew better ) when I 'm not home.

    Scott T

  3. haveasafeday | Dec 16, 2003 07:22am | #5

    No mention of electric outlet ( receptacle ) which you should have at your island.  I'd wait for the tile to crack before I cut into it given your situation.  Sounds like a great floor.  If the island moves after installation, securing at interior should not be difficult.

    1. User avater
      NickNukeEm | Dec 16, 2003 07:40am | #6

      You bring up a good popint, at least one receptacle is code required and would (apparently) have to come from below, being an island and all.  Maybe their local BI is flexible.  50-50-90 that if they try to drill for the cable, they hit the RH.

      I never met a tool I didn't like!

      1. haveasafeday | Dec 16, 2003 04:39pm | #8

        Code specifies that receptacle should not be located more than 12 inches below countertop and not where top extends more than 6 inches beyond its base.  Don't forget to make it a GFCI.  The receptacle is required for convenience and safety.  No extention cord to supply small appliance at island.

        1. User avater
          johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 04:57pm | #10

          Understand the code, but what if the island is actually designed to be moveable?  I'll call my AHJ to see if he'll cut me a break.

          1. User avater
            NickNukeEm | Dec 16, 2003 06:34pm | #11

            Another good point probably not addressed by codes, but subject to the (whims?) interpretation of the local BI.  I made an oak microwave cart to comlement our cabinets, and did not include a receptacle.  I guess movable can be interpreted different ways.  If by movable you mean you're gonna take it with you when you vacate, then maybe not.  Still, it will be subjective and your local BI will have the last word on the final inspection following the kitchen renovation, assuming you pulled a permit in the first place.

            I never met a tool I didn't like!

          2. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 06:51pm | #12

            Yeah...the whole set of kitchen cabinets, including "moveable" island come with me when we move into the new house, which I'm just now roughing in.   We would like to be able to slide it this way or that for times when we entertain large crowds (DW is one of 12 siblings).  If AHJ insists on an outlet, I'll put one in, connected to a junction box directly below in unfinished basement mechanical room joist space.

          3. tenpenny | Dec 16, 2003 07:39pm | #13

            Our island is 6 x 3, with a maple top.  It has an duplex outlet on each side; of course, being a kitchen, the top and bottom halves are on separate circuits; inspector wanted the outlets on separate breakers, too, making four (4!!!) breakers for the two duplex outlets.  What did he think we were going to run on that island??  Electrician ran separate wires down to the basement, and then just tied them together.  No further discussion needed. 

            Since we have our microwave in the island, and it's on its own circuit, having 75 A capacity for a kitchen island just seemed overkill.

          4. User avater
            johnnyd | Dec 16, 2003 07:47pm | #14

            I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt...maybe some day someone will serve a HUGE buffet with 4 or 5 roaster pans on that island.

          5. User avater
            ProBozo | Dec 16, 2003 10:37pm | #16

            when we built I didn't want island fastened down and wired, until we finessed the location.  Just put it up against a wall (where the table was going to go) and explained to the inspector at the final that it was "furniture", moveable, although it was built like the cabinets and matching countertops....he said he couldn't argue that, except "scolded" me with a grin for moving furniture into the house before the final was signed off.

          6. User avater
            NickNukeEm | Dec 16, 2003 10:45pm | #17

            Sounds like a perfectly good working relationship to me.  Wish ours was as amicable.

            I never met a tool I didn't like!

        2. DavidThomas | Dec 17, 2003 04:15am | #21

          I didn't want to interupt my similar sized island (but had a maple butchblock top) and found a spot on the end of the island.   Near the topwhere it didn't interfere with the drawers.  Ran metal flex conduit to it.  Put in a switch for the light illuminating the island and a receptacle to meet the code requirement.

          But how to get power to it in this case?  What with the tile there? <G> You could wire in a 12-volt battery from the cordless drill to a 200 watt inverter ($24.99).  When the inspector comes with his GFCI tester, it ought to trip.  But do those testers also check for ground/neutral separation?  That would be the tricky part - getting a ground without cutting into the tile. <G>  And to really explicit - this last paragraph was a joke.

          But if it is moveable, it doesn't need an outlet, right?  It is just a piece of furniture, albeit one that looks like an island of cabinets?  You can have a big-ole homping dining room table and you don't need an outlet in it, right?David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

          1. haveasafeday | Dec 17, 2003 03:38pm | #23

            I have floated by islands a few times, but have never had one float by me.  If it moves, rolls, etc. sounds more like a piece of furniture.  I saw furniture floating down a river one year in Texas. 

            I think a receptacle with cord would still be helpful if small appliances could possibly be used on top of the movable piece of furniture that looks alot like an island.

            Thought.  Would there be fewer kitchen contractors if all are cabinets were on wheels?

          2. User avater
            CloudHidden | Dec 17, 2003 04:41pm | #24

            I agree with David that it's furniture. So what that it looks like the cabinets, that just makes decorating sense. Heck, you could even have it pushed into another room or something for the inspection. I have relatives in the Miami-Ft L area with all their rules and regs in a $$$$$ house that have a floating island. No problem.They move it around and out of the way when they throw big parties. Makes perfect sense for some situations. I'd put good wheels on the bottom that wouldn't stress or mar the floor, plus maybe rig up a rubber pad that could be lowered as a "brake" for when you want it to not move.

  4. ian | Dec 16, 2003 03:56pm | #7

    Art, I think your situation is similar to installing the pan after the bathroom floor is tiled, you need to tie the island in.

    Buy or hire a good diamond saw, Makita for one makes both wet and dry versions.  Carefully cut the outline within which the island will sit using the finished base of the island as a template.  You'll probably need a FEIN multi tool so as not to over cut at the corners.  Make the cut out about 1/8in too big all round and you will then have a recess to retain a silicon seal.

  5. Framer | Dec 16, 2003 04:53pm | #9

    You can just glue down a 2x or piece of 5/4 on top of the tile on all the corners so that the back of the toe kick hits them and slide the island cabinets over them.

    Joe Carola

  6. davidmeiland | Dec 16, 2003 07:47pm | #15

    I've never left a cabinet or island of any kind unattached to the floor and/or wall. What if some kids are horsing around and knock the thing over on themselves? When my brother and I were young we did that stuff all the time. Fortunately I never had my head crushed by a granite slab.

    You can fasten a couple of 2x cleats to the floor in any number of ways. Figure out the dimensions and placement carefully so that they will nest under the cabinet just so. You need a diamond drill bit to get through the tile, and then you screw to the subfloor and hopefully framing if you can find it (try hard). Place the island over the cleats and fasten either through the floors of the cabs or through the sidewalls. If the cabinet has a 'baseboard' around it, remove this and replace it tight against the floor and covering those screwholes you made.

    Regarding the RFH, you may find that your fire department has a thermal imaging camera. If you can get your hands on one (or get the assistant chief to swing by with it to pick up a cash donation to the firefighter's association) you'll be able to see those tubes like they were growing on your feet. Mark their locations with masking tape so you won't hit them with screws.

    1. C1802362 | Dec 17, 2003 02:42am | #19

      The RH floor is very overkill due to some miscommunication at the time of installation. Basically, I've got the RH plywood system anchored to the 3/4 ply that sits on the joists. On top of that is 1/4 luan glued and screwed (thank the RH installer who screwed up by specifying luan), over the top of which is 1/4 denshield then the tile. (The mortar specifically excluded the use of luan as an underlayment, which necessitated the denshield). In any event, since I put the floor down, I chalked a grid that allowed me to screw the denshield down without coming near any of the RH tubes. I also made it a point to document the layout precisely and to run the power feed to the island before laying the tile, so I can run achors if I need to without hitting the tubes.

      By the way, the RH is absolutely phenomenal. If I ever build another house, every floor in the vicinity will be radiant

    2. DavidThomas | Dec 17, 2003 04:24am | #22

      "Fortunately I never had my head crushed by a granite slab."

      I knew kids who played like that.  Their mom was as likely to find the front door hanging from one hinge as to find the cat on the spin cycle. 

      Earthquakes also come to mind.  I know people who had an office desk (less tall and less top heavy) turn over (not just tip over 90 but do a 180).  It was only 3 miles from the epicenter of a 7.2, but somebody lives near the center of every earthquake.  And people were dying that (World's Series) day 65 miles away from an excess amount of concrete falling onto their cars.

      "Regarding the RFH, you may find that your fire department has a thermal imaging camera. If you can get your hands on one"

      Sears has non-contact infrared thermometers for $59.  Scan back and forth and mark the warmest (driest) spot.  Much lower tech - mop down the floor lightly while the heat is coming up.  The areas over the tubes will evaporate first.  Chalk the centerlines as they appear.David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

  7. gdavis62 | Dec 17, 2003 02:45am | #20

    I've got a 7x3 in my kitchen, and it's not anchored.  It's not moving, either.

    BTW, we have a power wire up through the floor feeding a recep at one end.

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