As a trim sub, I normally work on fixed bids. The GCs I work for usually have pretty detailed plans and specific expectations, so bidding is fairly straight forward. Well, due to the “blame it on the last guy†economics, coupled with 9 months of weird weather, these guys have nothing to trim. Onward and upward…
I got a call yesterday from a job supervisor I know, who works for a GC I don’t know. Says they’re “desperate†for a trim crew. They’ll have a French Country 6,000 sq’ house ready in a month, how ‘bout a bid. Fits my out of work schedule just fine…
Go for a look, house is a 2 story on a full basement, hoo daddy. I start asking about the details and the super honestly tells me he doesn’t know. Could be 2,3,4, or 5 piece crown, windows all need jamb extensions and about 20 are arch topped, might have two piece (backband) trim. Doors might be solid core, might not, some flat jamb, some split, stairs might be farmed out, balconies might not…soooo, I’m having a bit of a hard time even seeing what I’m supposed to be bidding on. I tell the super that, and suggest hourly rates or cost + , or something amenable to both of us.
I’d like this job (there’s an even bigger one for this guy in the wings, probably 6 months worth of work), and am sure we can come up with a fair arrangement. Just thought I’d ask here if anybody has any experience, insights, or warnings for a situation like this?
EliphIno!
Replies
sounds to me like one of the main things necessary to put a bid together is missing.
what are you going to do.
sounds like T&M
bobl Volo Non Voleo
Funny you should mention T & M. I very rarely supply materials, but I think I read of a trimmer here that did, and was thinking that might be another way to go...and, we never know what we're doing<G> EliphIno!
maybe just chart by the hour, cost basisbobl Volo Non Voleo
Is this a "spec" house or a "custom" home?
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It's a very custom house. The way they all should be<G> EliphIno!
Billy:
I'm from your neck of the woods - your in Chapel Hills if I remember correctly. Most trim carpenters around here charge by the cut - maybe $3.50 or 3.75 for paint grade molding... and/or by the hour - maybe $25 or $30 for every man (ok, person) on the crew for the stairs and other stuff. You supply the fasteners and incidentals. Maybe $20 each for prehung doors - shimmed. Forget about supplying the materials, unless they are going to agree to cost + on that part of it and agree to an aggressive draw schedule.
For built-ins or other special stuff you just gotta have detailed plans or just charge by the hour.
Lay a sales job on them (try to get the homeowner involved saying you need more info) and tell them about how much you love your life's work, you love creating with wood, and say you don't need to make much money, but make sure you got your bases covered, bid medium high and don't look back.
Good luck,Matt
Do a sales job with the homeowner yes and talk about you enthusiasm, pride in workmanship, and skill but ABSOLUTLEY DO NOT SAY "...you don't need to make much money".
The only thing that happens when you say something like that is you've handed the client a bargaining chip. That's crazy. Especially considering they are hanging on the line “desperate for a trim crew"!!! Use that to your advantage to leverage a better price!
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"I don't need to make much money"
I like that one.......lol. Pretty scary, actually...........
OK, you are right. "Don't need to make much money" is probably not the best idea. The bottom line is though is that he can only say how much he charges, not give a price on the job. I think we all agree that a sales job is in order since he needs the work, but I can tell you he is gonna have to sell the value of his service. I'll bet anyone that this is a high budget - low budget job... 600 - 800 k home, but they were too "thrifty" to draw up good plans. Quality is not necessarily job one - getting a reasonable looking product while containing costs probably is probably the mission. Also, knowing this area (I'm 90% sure he lives/works 25 miles from where I do), I can tell you there is gonna be a Hispanic crew bidding that does OK paint grade work, has pretty low prices, and brings their own caulk gun.Matt
You are right on about the latin crews, and funny you should mention the caulk gun, I've got a painter on my crew, too. I am working that into my sales spiel.!
Thanks all, I feel a lot better about my take on the situation... EliphIno!
"latin crew"
Why is it that I'm picturing about 10-15 guys running around in togas, toolbelts and sandals?This jobless recovery has done more to promote the consumption of exquisite chocolate than the finest chocolatier. Cost be damned.
You're right, I am in Chapel Hill (where are you?).
I usually have a couple of carps that work for me, and on bigger jobs or ones that overlap, I'll hire other sub crews. Sometimes they'll work by the job sometimes by the hour, $30-$35.
Haven't seen anybody here charge by the cut, although when I'm working up a bid I do use a cut price for cross checking what I charge for crown.
I am seeing this as an hourly job, right now, 'cause I do not like bidding piece work.
I have learned, though, to never bid like I need the work, 'cause as you probably know, something good is always coming up around here EliphIno!
I like Jerald's idea of offering to help decide on the details. If the job has poor management or "thrifty" clients they might welcome this help at less than the cost (or perceived cost) of an architect. Your insight as to "cost-effictive" designs based on your experience and portfolio will be more important than whatever an architect would come up with.
Just be sure to charge a fair price for consultation.
Then under those circumstances I would say to the GC:
Doesn't sound like a "very" custom house to me if they haven't worked out those details and they are spinning in the wind “desperate for a trim crew". The bright yellow warning light on top of my head would be flashing telling me to proceed with caution with this one. No drawing and or schedules of finishes has "un-professional" and "bad management" written all over it if you ask me.
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Jerrald, "Proceed with caution" could be my tag line. Hey, that's why I'm asking for experience/advice here.
I totally agree with your nailing it down technique, as a matter of fact, that's pretty much the way I left it with them.
You've got remember, as far as the very custom thing goes, to factor in the regional differences. Things move slightly slower here. Can you tell I'm typing with a southern accent?<G> EliphIno!
I'm also a trim sub from your neck of the woods ( Greensboro, Winston).
The scenario you describe is always a little scary for me. I do almost all commercial work, now, which is ussually very well defined as far as plans scope, etc. Probably 2/3 of my work is bid lump sum and 1/3 is hourly.
I am a little surprised that a house that large could get so far along without better plans. Maybe part of the reason why the plans are sketchy is that the client is running out of money/budget and is hoping to make it up on the finishes. I don't see any way you could price any part of this job based on what they are giving you. I am also very wary of anyone who keeps saying things like "If we can get a good price on this job we've got a real plum job coming up next where you can really make some money." I've been burned more than once by shady GC's.
However, this could be a real money maker if handled correctly. Some of my best jobs have been the ones that were disorganized and sort of open ended. We always aim to please the archys and designers. This could be a place to send a crew for a month or so and do whatever it takes, by the hour of course, to get this house finished.
I'm currently trimming a 25,000 sq ft house near High Point, ever consider travelling?
You are so right about the possibility of being a money maker. It definitley has the potential. And I know what you mean about the carrot on the stick thing, the construction biz here is much to iffy to go for that.
I'n not sure why the details haven't been worked out, I had a lot of other questions, but that's on my agenda to find out this week.
And yeah, 'bout the only thing I could bid right now is putting the jamb extensions on the windows, so I'm just sitting tight. And there is an interior decorator involved who is allegedly worth his salt!
So you should be finished with that 25,000 sq' baby in about a month, right? How'd you like to travel?<G>
EliphIno!
Maybe I should consider traveling :) That 30 to 35 per hour sounds pretty good. I don't charge quite that much on my hourly jobs. Guess I should quit using that line about how much I enjoy the work and don't really care about making all that much money.....
We just started with a 3 man crew about 4 weeks ago at our "big house job". Two weeks ago we jumped it up to 8. The first floor has about half the sheetrock hung and the owner asked if he could move in by christmas! I don't even think that we'll finish our part by then. Luckily the GC doesn't plan on being done until april....