OK gang….lemme have your opinions.
I`m building a custom wall unit / computer desk for a repeat customer. I did a bathroom renovation for them a year ago and they`re having a set of plans drawn up for a deck. They are good people and easy to work with. They`ve given my name to several potential customers and….. they have money.
I was on the job installing the cabinetry today when I realized the speaker wire the homeowner was supposed to have run(4 wires in all, snaked from point “A” to point “B”) had not yet been done. He said he hadn`t gotten a chance to do it, would I mind? Had I not run it myself I would have needed to wait on the installation until he “got the chance”. Not wanting to waste time I did it. It ended up taking longer than I had hoped, and screwed up my schedule for the day.
I have already made my decision but I want to hear it from you guys…do I charge him for the time spent running the wire? Be honest, what would you do?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
“DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE”
Replies
You already answered your own question>>>"They are good people and easy to work with".
I don't bleed people, but I know something always happens, I just don't know what. The unforeseen has been included, and averages out. Even if this costs you a bit you have to favor the customer on this one. Of course the cost is added right into the next job, I'm not a total idiot.
Hard core business answer is stick a change order in their face, you have them by the short hairs. All of which is spelled out in your contract, right?
Did it take hours or days to run the wires? If only a couple of hours a little extra work today could turn into a lot more work from them in the future and if they are telling their friends they will have something good to say to them about you to their friends which turns into more work in the future.
If you are talking about an all day job then that is different.
BT
No.
Definetly do not charge them, but there is a lesson to be learned.
Every Good Deed Does Not Go Unpunished!
No, don't charge them but make sure they remember you ran it for them. If you know them well, you can rib them a little with quotes like "Boy that speaker wire running probably equals lunch next time I'm here" or give them a tongue-in-cheek invoice that says something like:
Installation of 18' speaker wire in custom built entertainment center
Balance due: 1 six pack of Guiness
Its all in fun but does remind them you did do work that was not agreed upon originally. Would you have just gone over there to run the wire itself?
Mike
I'd be a little more subtle than suggesting lunch or beer, even tongue-in-cheek. Even if family said that to me, I'd wonder if they were seriously expecting something other than thanks. No, if you know them well, they'll remember it's in the favor-bank, and I'd rather have deposits in their banks than iou's.
No, would not charge them. I try not to schedule so close together that a couple hours will kill me. Thats why I charge more. DanT
One more thought on this subject. Everything and anything that is not included in the original work description should be documented with a "Written Change Order". This should be a strick practice whether or not the additional work is charged to your client. This "Written Change Order" when signed by all parties becomes part of the original contract. Now they see what a nice guy you are after they review the final bill and see the attached "Written Change Order" for those additional hours of work you performed at no chanrge! It also provides a written documemt that your client agreed to that explains why the project has incurred additional time to complete.
I say again: Every Good Deed Does Not Go Unpunished!
Most all of my work is super custom without bid. I charge time and materials or cost plus because I always have things like that. If I didn't charge ,I'd be working for free half the time.
Definitely charge.
What ####!
This is the problem with our industry! We're like tramps who wish to be treated like ladies.
I don't know about you guys, put when I go to the dentist and he/she discovers a 2nd cavity, I don't say, "Hey Doc, while you got your hands stuck in mouth........
Does that engineer you use to do calculations "throw in" numbers on that beam you forgot?
Does your mech "go ahead" and change your air filter for free just so you'll know what a great guy he is ?
How 'bout that one letter outta of 20 you forgot to stamp, Hell, it's only .30 something cents, you'd think the Postmaster would figure since your such a "good" customer, he would just thow on one of these stamps he has laying around..
Jeez.......and you guys want to be treated with respect? What a bunch of saps!
I'm here to earn a living........Pay me. I'll buy my own beer, my own lunch and by virtue of doing what I say, when I say I'll do it and honoring my agreement with you, I don't have to, nor should I do a bend over to earn your good will.
The problem starts with communication......."That wiring must be complete before I arrive to install or I will have to charge.............."
A+ grade for Mark.
Move to the front of the class
Excellence is its own reward!
I put a lot into my clients and love to do free extra's but I have to agree with you on this one. Its been my experience that customers "expect" to get work for free and then have very short memories in the future. If we want to be treated like quality tradespeople we need to act like it. Professionalism is a real problem in our industry. I do however think it is important to work on a case by case basis when making theses decisions.
lee
Doctors and lawyers , charge for the time that you answer there questions and time that you even think about there job when you are not on site.
Well, a lawyer, if he/she is efficient, can accrue billing time by dictating into a recorder while sitting on the can....now, hmmm.... if I could develop a remote controlled nailgun....
Charging does a lot more than just get money into your pocket.
It shows that you respect your own time. Don't charge the wrong people and they will think that they can call at any time or for any little thing. These same people will frequently discount the value of the work you do.
It shows you mean business. Funny how punctuality improves when you start charging from the agreed upon meeting time. Not when the client actually shows up with lame excuses in tow. This is a double edged sword not to be drawn lightly.
Charging relieves the receiver of being in debt to the giver. A nominal charge can keep a relationship with a prideful person afloat when you are actually acting as a neighbor or friend. Charging $5 can keep the lines open and you a prospect for larger jobs in the future.
Marketing shows that given the same product without outside clues as to market price the people who pay the most, within reason, will think more highly of the product.
"Well, a lawyer, if he/she is efficient, can accrue billing time by dictating into a recorder while sitting on the can"
Heck, when I practiced, the clock stayed on if I just spent that time thinking about your problem. After all, thinking about it was one of the most importatnt things I could do. I didn't need no stinkin' dictaphone {G}
BINGO!!!!!!
Time, is not only money, but your Life. Each of us were given only so much, in what a friend of mine, Rick Ritivoy, calls, The parade of life.
I remember an article several years ago about a kitchen remodeler with a showroom and sales people. He was having losing as a result of bad systems. He substanitally raised his prices assuming that would lower the incoming calls and allow him to slow down and work on his systems. Wrong! His sales calls increased because his segment of the public figured if he was that expensive, he must be really good.
He just couldn't get a handle on how to run the business properly, so he ended up closing the business anyway. That proves a statement by Lawerence L. Steinmetz, Ph. D., "How to Sell at Prices Higher Than Your Competitiors", when he says: "Price is always more important in the mind of the seller than in the mind of the buyer."
So Sonny,
Ya changing your original post......that is, charge 'em?
BTW, how ya doing? Getting hot?
As a homeowner, I would prefer to be charged. I agreed to provide labor, I didn't do it, the contractor did, so they should be paid. It's too stressful to keep track of who did which favors for who and how big they were and who owes what to who. It's business, even if you're friends. Especially if you're friends.
If you don't hold me accountable for paying you for your work, how can I hold you accountable for the results? If anything isn't quite right I won't ask you to fix it because I owe you. But I probably won't call you next time either, because I will be too uncomfortable with the situation.
Tell me what has to be done, tell me how much it will cost and how long it will take, let me decide, and let me live with my decision. After the project is done you can come for dinner; you bring the wine and flowers and we'll cook and clean up.
"A completed home is a listed home."
Very hot, Mark. Especially since I've been spraying doors for two days in my garage with the OH door shut to keep bugs out.
No, not changing. Most of us realize that our most valuable asset is Time - Time used in our personal lives "and" even more in our business lives. More so, because when our operations demand extra Time, that diminishes what's left for our personal Time. To me that means using the Time judiciously and wisely.
Sometimes I will do freebies, but at my discretion, and never when asked for by a client. And when I do a freebie, the client is made aware of it, and the reason. So, it's only done when I feel it would be prudent for marketing and/or PR reasons. But for what ever, the "results" and that's the important thing to think about or rather discern, "must" be to me advantage. What will I get in return for that 1/4 or 1/2 hour "investment" of my most valuable asset. If I deem it will be almost nothing - then the "act" is charged for.
It's difficult for business people regardless of industry to learn this "judgment" aspect of business ownership. Some charge for every 5 minutes that wasn't scheduled. I look for "opportunities" that, as I mentioned above, provide more in the return than what was invested.
Here's a different example of a "freebie. Friday I convinced a property management company husband and wife team to install an extra line in their office for access to the Internet. I offered to pay their ISP monthly charges for one year. They said it wasn't the money, it was that fact that they didn't want to get flooded by unit owners. So we/they, decided to make it a secretive operation for a select few of their contractors as myself, and will install it on only one of their computers. Today I bought a digital camera to present them with on Tuesday. I know it will be given to their Maintenance Manager who handles all of those types of complaints and meets with Board members about larger projects, and wo I mainly deal with.
Since I use my camera for all of the projects I look at, I often print them and bring them to their office to discuss the problem and/or my suggestion for the solution, or how I intend to work on it and why. Many times the Maintenance Manager will now be able to take photos and email them to me. Being able to email “them” the photos with text on a photo saves me time, them time, and the monies I normally charge the respective association for me having to go to the property management office to discuss it. By the manager being able to email the photos to me instead, that saves time, and money since I then may not have to actually visit the site and charge them for that site visit. It makes our relationship stronger and the entire "process" much more efficient.
I charge them a token $50 to visit a site. Often it takes me a complete hour to go there, look at it and back home or the job I'm working on. Sometimes I lose money, yet for a $300 job, I can't charge them $85 just for a site visit. So the $300 spent on the camera I'll get back not only within about 10 site visit charges, but it further solidifies my relationship with this property management company that in reality, acts as one of my best sales companies - an actual sales company - free - because they always highly recommend me to their clients for condo work and even to unit owners for private work.
"BTW, while I was there I noticed .................................... so I took care of that also at no charge." is said occasionally to a Board member. Think they will bother to find a cheaper guy the next time my prices comes up? It's a fact that once a client or customer has developed a "loyalty" to you, it takes a lot to change their attitude, and in fact even if you do a small screw up, they are more tolerant and will even come to your defense because you have become the equivalent of a friend who they trust and as always there to help. That's an attitude we all have about the favorite people or companies we like to deal with.
Think down the road a month or year, not just what might go into today's pocket. It may just end up being chump change by comparison to the benefits of the "brand" your building, or rather, what that brand represents.
Judgment.
I've read this issue with keen interest - and believe many of you are right on the mark. As a recent convert to full time construction from the land of business development & sales [worked my way through high school & college swinging a hammer...white collar since college], I can offer a few items to think about:
[1] never make a deal on a promise of future business. IF that future business comes through, you can consider discounting / throwing in some freebies to say thank you at that later date, on that later deal.
[2] Do you know why software companies charge so much for their product? Nope - not R&D, not production costs...because they can.
[3] Setting expectations is by far the most important aspect of communication you can / need to master with customers - always underpromise & overdeliver. We all want to make them happy, but if something can't be done in X time or for X dollars, tell them.
[4] In surveys of the top salespeople across many fields, the top characteristic for these heavy hitters was integrity. No kidding. Customers appreciate it - and they appreciate a job well done.
That's my 4 cents -
Seano
Sean....2 of your cents would have been enough, being that what you said is very correct to put it lightly. As you can see in one of the earlier posts in this thread I scolded....lol...Sonny. My response was exactly along the same lines as yours. Integrity is the key word. My "basic" explanation was......Give them a damn good job and deliever all you say would would and then some........BUT.....within the confines of the contract. 27 years building and I'm yet to find one single person that appreciates, never even mind, acknowledges a freebe. It always gets accepted with a rationalization such as they deserve it .......yet in my mind.....pay me for it cause thats time away from my family. Let your customers know your doing them really right. Its simply...treat others the way you want to be treated. I dont expect to get anything for nothing.......and in this day and age getting a real good job is more then I could ask for cause its rare!
BE well
(and charge!)
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Fellas, I don't mind being scolded.
Periodically, I think of when I used to live in Michigan and going to the local MacDonalds and reading the Detroit Free Press. I loved that newspaper because at the time (over 20 years ago), they had two very intelligent columnists that took opposing views on various subjects. One was a conservative and the other a liberal. While I admit to being a conservative - probably leaning toward moderate - I enjoyed the columnist whose opinion was opposite to mine because of the way he presented his opinion, one in a manner that almost implored me to rethink my dissenting position about the issue at hand. Sometimes I even did change my opinion.
So, it's not so much the message, nor even the messenger, as much as it is the "how" of the way the message is delivered.
Guess what I'm trying to say is that I am never adverse to having an intelligent debate about any issue. So I thank many of you for providing that, and to you, that's also a compliment as to your salesmanship. You have it down pat!
Last week I did a small condo repair job that son Pete estimated at 8 hours. I did it in 2-1/2 hours so Pete really over estimated it, but the condo board approved my price based upon Pete’s estimate. Anyway, while there, one of the Board members showed something to me and asked if I’d take care of it. I did it in about 20 minutes, and told him there was no charge - after he told me to add it to the “bill.” I told him that being a member of my “client family” ,and that I operated like AMX - membership had it’s privileges - not every single little thing I do for my client’s carried a price tag. If it did, he would be “customer” of mine instead of “client.” He smiled and said: “Well, that’s why we like using you. You always take good care of us”
I billed them for the original 8 hour SCA and received the check yesterday. So the question is: Did I do that 20 minute repair for free - or did I get paid for it?
That’s how I operate. Since my closing ratio is about 95%, and nearly all for repeat clients, and always at my price, I’d say that I always get paid for free work. The way I operate, I don’t have to “sell” - just price them out and schedule them. If it isn’t broken and works terrific, why in the world would I change it.
Anyway, it's been a good discussion.
Are some of you guys absolutly insane?????????? And Sonnyyyyyyyyy of all people to say no..you charge for estimates! OF COURSE CHARGE THEM..dont rape them but charge for your time.....its time you could be spending with your family. Also.....its a deal youve just set up with your future with them. That they can take advantage of you..thats so not cool !!! Freeeeee?? Free is just another word for nothin left to lose..ya know? Dont be a chump. Respect comes from good business practices. Not from letting yourself become taken advantage of. Its an "excuse" (that theres more work down the line) for you to not conjure up the guts to let em know what its gonna cost....get use to it....IMHO leave em a bouquet of flowers when the jobs done with your well wishes.
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
Andy, you and Mark are right. And yet, you are wrong. Let me begin with the difference between an "administrator" and a "manager.'
An "administrator" is one who follows ALL established "policies" to the letter. They are trained to do so because their "judgement" is or may be, questionable. I had one at the emergency room while having a stoke. She wanted me to sit with the rest of the people there who were had sprained ankles, cuts, etc., and apparently wait my turn. After about 10 minutes if inaction I approached her and raised my voice while reminding her that their own literature stated that the first few minutes is critical with strokes. In short order I got a "manager" who escorted me to a room.
"Managers", on the other hand, use discretion based upon the situation at hand and person(s) involved, and bend or throw out the "rule" when necessary. My pricing schedule allows me to do a freebie when I deem prudent. Since 100% of my sales are repeats and referrals, there's a reason for my philosophy.
A couple of weeks ago I got a cell phone call from a condo owner who I just did some work for. They couldn't get their sofa bed back in with the mattress on it, only with the mattress off. I was going right by the condo in about 10 minutes so I swing into the complex. From the time I hit the gate to the time I drove past the gate while leaving, 15 minutes had expired. When asked what he owed me for fixing the problem, I said nothing. "Not everything I do carries a price tag. Like AMX, membership of the Lykos client family has it's privileges." Sure, I could have charged him for an $80 service call and made the equivalent of $320 an hour for that 15 minutes.
I do about $8K - $10 K for that condo association annually and just did about $800 of misc. stuff for him in particular. Neither the above owner nor his condo Board ever question my prices.
If someone asks for a freebie, they would not get it. I alone determine who, when and why they get one, and I always use it for the purpose of a "WOW" - but always to my advantage and for a specific reason such as the above situation - PR.
Be a "Manager"; create a PR/Marketing budget and use it wisely - very wisely and it will return those monies 10 fold. Remember, they know we are "contractors" and "business" people, but what they want is to feel is that in their "perception", we are also a "friend."
When appropriate, be a friend.
Edited 4/20/2002 1:50:30 PM ET by Sonny Lykos
O.K.
And the long and the short of it was "Thanks Sonny, WHAT DO WE OWE YOU?!"
You then, and only then, you elected to not charge for the services rendered. We all know you'll get it down the road.
Your clients had been conditioned by your own practices, to EXPECT a fee for your sevices. You had the power and the luxury to look good. And I'm all for that! I do the same thing all the time.
I agree totally with you. But that's not what this deal was.
The deal was, the owner promised to provide a condition (for the sole purpose of saving money, why else?) for the contractor and when the contractor showed up to perform his end of the deal, he was delayed by the Owner not performing his end. And to add insult to injury, the owner expected the contractor to switch gears, become an electrician, and expected him to be a good sport (Chump) and do it without pay. True, the contractor should have pulled out the change order book, but it was to late for that............
This "expectation" has got to stop.
And that can only happen though complete comunication at the begining that would go like this. "I glad you want to do the pre-wire, saves me a lot of time, saves you a nice bit of money. Now, be aware, this must be completed by thursday. If something comes up and your not able to get it done, no problem, I'll take care of it at my normal T & M rate."
We have to make clear our expectations of our clients.
n
You're right Mark. Of course I would have, and maybe he did, let them know the importance and perhaps cost, of runnign that wiring himself.
I would have andas I often do, at the onset, said somehting like: "Why don't you save you self a hundred bucks or so and run that wiring yourself. I'll show you how." It also would have been stated on the contract: "owner to............."
That way, I set him up and set myself up, for an Additional Work Authorization for that scenario. Then a price will be charges is agreed and only then do I have the option to charge or not.
This is not a minor thing because these "inadvertent" things come up frequently in our business in addition to the formal change orders. They msut be handled properly. Therefore, I'm glad it was brought up. Now each contractor can develop his/her own "system" on "how" to handle this in the future. Good relationships are important, but those $25s, $50s and $100s also add up each year.
Thank for for the Internet and these forums.
THATS NOT!!!!! What this deal was from the vibe I got. I also think one would be setting a standard in this case to get taken advantage of over and over if this is how one starts out////with freebies. Personally I'd rather do a free estimate as long as it didnt take me half a day or more and then get what I'm worth by example and performance as I posted in a different thread that of course I cant find in this lame new format...Give em your all and let em know theyre getting top notch service.....at a real fair price.....but ya gotta get paid for every god damn nail you put in...no rape service.just fair! I dont charge for the last time I had to get a tetnous shot cause I stepped on a rusty nail.....or have to pay close attention to not lettin the friggin dog get out of the house as I carry out tons of derbis"real respectfully and carefully".....the list of things I DONT charge for thats kindaaaa beyond the call of duty is endless....the WORK ITSELF? Bet your ass I'm gonna charge. You nuts or somethin'? Rationalize it all you want Sonny but its insane IMHO respectably speaking. How can you talk about charging for estimates which I think is particullary hard especially for someone just starting out and then tell them to give out freebies...setting a president for more bust your ass for nothing to come. We work our asses off. I dont know how much of the grunt work you PERSONALLY do..but me for one do a whole lot of it and have been for about 27 years..love my work...respect myself and my trade and craft and I'm damed if I'm doing anything for nothing. If it takes me an extra day to get the job done"perfect"....thats on me..if I figured the job as it stands with no extras....and in some kinda way I'll let my client know I give the job my all and then some but if theres an extra service involved.......CHARGE EM DAM IT...dont tell tradespeople....hard workin guys to give away their time.....like I said.when the jobs done leave ema bouqet of flowers and even a bottle of wine in their new kitchen with your card...BUT CHARGE for your work. No exceptions! Guess what....I KNOWWWWW it goes a real lotta time unappreciated anyway.the flowers and bottle of wine go further when the job is completed with perfection!
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
geezzzz my website pix came out in WEBX format...hate this new format....whatever.is what it is I reckon
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From:
ANDY CLIFFORD
12:16 pm
To:
Steve Merrette
(12 of 12)
19685.12 in reply to 19685.1
ok ok found the post I wrote earlier in a different thread that I thought fit here...I charged for the extras but let them know the extra time it took me to do it right within the agreed contract.......
Steve....good job bro...reminds me of the job I'm now. Hows its taking twice the time THEY figured from what other contractors told them. Its taking 2 weeks rather then one BUT ..yesterday (Friday) the husband was home and both he and the wife expressed their dismay in "the time its taking". Its a bathroom gut and redo.....2 of em' actually. I learned from 27 in the biz to shut my mouth and not come back with my "defensives"(explanations) right there as I'm being scolded. Nowwwwww what I do, is to bring them..actually BRING them to the point....ok so two hours later the room was totally gutted and cleaned out....I even cut the tub in half with a saw zall so I could get it down two flights of stairs alone that day. Broom swept!!! All rock nails outta the wall..etc etc. The width of the bathroom was about six feet. Room was slanted in those six feet about a heavy two inches......subfloor under the tile that I ripped up was 1/2 TOTALLY rotted....the insulation where the tub use to be was totally soaked and the ply beind it I could put my finger through to the new vinyl siding......OK so I see the hubby and wife out in the backyard through my bathroom window. I call down and ask if they would come up so I could have a word with them....heh heh......They walk in and are in amazement that not only is the room cleared out....even the tub...I say to them...So what besides me dont you like in this room? Theyre kinda shocked.I said it really calmly and even witha funny attitude in my voice. They said the floor is really bad.....I said...uhuh...then I ripped out about a foot of insulation between two studs and rang it out onto the plywood floor. Their faces dropped....I pushed my finger threw the sheathing to the siding that some butcher did. I said .....would you like me to cover the wet insul up with rock/wonderboard and wonderboard over the rotted floor? I'll be done in three days....ORRRRR would you like me to do the RIGHT job? That'll take me about six days...I told them they really hurt my feelings....that I refuse to leave a job untill its a brick sh*t house.so to speak...lol. That my work isnt just how I make money..its a relection of who I am......they flipped.....offered me something to drink, which I declined and told me how sorry they were and how they appreciate all I'm doing......so ..cant see it from my house attitude is for the hackers and part timers....My signiture goes on all I do...sorry for the rant but it just happened yesterday
Be well
Namaste....Andy
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Well, I guess thats why I'm out of business but if I just built an ongoing customer who I also consider a friend a say, $4k entertainment center and I need to spend an extra hour or so to run some speaker wire and I try to ask him for an extra $50, $100 or more, I'd feel like a big chump and I know my customer would feel that way too.
Haven't you guys ever had customers who at the end of a long day for you offer to help you clean up or tell you just to leave the cardboard you put down on their floor behind and they'll pick it up and throw it away since its 6:00pm and they know you want to get home.
Example: I just had a leaking valve stem on my truck tire. Took it down to one of the local tire places in our area. Guy doesn't know me at all, never seen me before but I tell him what I need. He pulls the tire off, breaks it down, puts a new valve stem on and tells me "Goodbye" when I ask him how much I owe him. I insist on paying and he tells me to give his helper a few bucks as a tip. Where do you think I'm buying all my tires from here on out even if they cost a few dollars more?
I always tried to run my business on the handshake and small town integrity method and if I had to run a little wire to make the folks happy and call me again, so be it.
But I'll admit, I'm a much better craftsman than businessman.
Mike
Edited 4/20/2002 10:49:00 PM ET by Mike
That example of yours, Mike, is funny. During two years I picked up a screw or nail three times and took the pick-up to our local tire company. He did the same thing and said the same thing about his helper. That was before we bought three sets of tires from him and one replacement in muy minian that had a blowout.
If running those wires took Jaybird the better part of an hour or more, I'd charge for it, but if it took less, and considering the relationship he has with that client - N/C.
Sonny,
Yeah, when its the warranty on THEIR tires its a different story huh? The tire may have gotten repaired on no charge but topping off your windshield washer cost $8 bucks!
Mike
It sometimes feels like all contractors are people who want to do nice things for people but can't communicate that well. So, instead of being in another biz, they hold hammers.
I have come apon this charge or not to charge complication all the time. With the last job, widening a clients stairway, we had previously performed a job for them and had spent many hours training the clients to do their own plaster repairs, painting tips, etc. without getting reimbursed for our time.
This time around, I made sure to call them every day to check in and many times there was something that changed the scope of the work. Before I got on the phone to talk to them, I took the 5 minutes to write down some positives - 'the wall came out easily and its looking great' - and problems with a solution - 'the electrician needs to have us open the ceiling plaster; It's probably going to be an extra $250 for replacing it. We'll try to keep the finish time the same.'
They were fine with it. They got home and praised our work over and over again. By the end of this job the changes had reached just over $1000. We completed the work for the price of the hours that we were there. There were things that we did for 'free', but we were reimbursed for our hourly wage plus overhead and profit (20%).
The thing that i've found is that you have to talk to the clients all the time. Keep them informed and they will respect you.
It can be hard to dial the number when we have bad news for a person we're trying to make happy, but otherwise you end up feeling resentful
mike...dude....your tire guy rocks.......he's no doubt a bro....thats different then biz..just is.......your tire guy had his end of the day and saw your raggy ass pull in......ya know.?No bs..thats what happened...and guess what....I give people things free all the time....ya gotta just feel it out. Be a swell guy when your heart tells you to be one.....NOT when you puss out having to ask/tell what an extra cost. Change a tire for a person stuck on the highway in a brand new Benz....gonna ask for money.....nahhhhhhh, You stopped to help. See a dude all beat up after a hard god damn days work with a broken valve on his tire stem....well.....c'mon bro......yeh ya could....IMHO I think theres a difference in setting different presidences.
I have to go with the PR approach here. I threw in an unforseen 'freebie' to a client a year ago which cost me half a day. Today I went back to their house and contracted to replace 150' of cedar fence and talked about their next project, a full bathroom gut & remodel. I also got a 3-story exterior stairway job from them on referral. That half a day worth of PR has landed me enough work I can 'bury' the extra expense within these other projects. It will come back around eventually...
To the original poster...What did you end up doing? I think that what you should have done is in the receipt write the service that you provided and the cost. Something like this...wiring @30 min.=$50.00-----------------$0.00 That way the your client knows what it cost you to do the job. Now personally as the bookkeeper for Lars I would say "YOU BETTER CHARGE", then again as a client I would remember the "favor" that you did. You better believe that I would recommend you to many more of my "friends". Why? Because you took time out of your busy schedule to help me out. I think that in every business a "good business" has to take every situation as it comes and then make the call. Some here may have charged for the wiring, but not charge for something that you would have charged for etc. Again you know you and your business better than anyone here. You know what you can afford to do for "free". I would imagine that this client more than likely won't abuse your "favors".
Just my two cents.Tamara
What makes you think you wouldnt have gotten the job without the freebie? I still feel strong about giving seriously great work and be fair with the extras. MAkes no sense to me to give away your blood sweat and tears.......what more could one ask for. There are OTHER "good will tactics" such as I mentioned like leaving a bottle of Champagne in a newly fisnished bathroom or flowers sent the next weekend when everyone and maybe even company are home. It makes no sense to me to set standards that take time from my family. Also have you ever added up all the OTHER freebies you didnt get paid for and nothing more came of it? Think abouit that. Try adding it up....I have....thats when I stopped giving things away. I just think its an excuse not to have to ask for more money...was with me till I sucked my ballz up and I'm as busy as one could be!
Thanks to all of you for your honesty and well meaning insights.
As I mentioned in my original post, I had already made my decision and was looking for your personal feedback as to how you would handle a similar situation.
I did not charge for the time spent running the wire. However at the time I realized I would not be able to continue without the wiring being complete, I immediately spoke to the homeowner and explained the situation. I agreed to run it myself at no charge in order to keep the project moving along. ( I did not mention this in my original post because I was more inerested in your opinions as to what YOU would do, rather than what I did.) I stipulated that so long as the job remained on schedule, there would be no charge. When the final bill is tallied, N/C will apear in the line item.
I have a handful of regular customers for whom I will perform small tasks at no extra charge. So long as it does not affect my scheduling of other jobs and fits within the original estimate, I feel it brings more money in than it costs me. Even if I tallied them all up at $75 here or $100 there, the total would not exceed the $15,000 bathroom or the $30,000 kitchen it led to.
Thanks again for all your input. This type of forum does not have a tag you can put a price on!!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Edited 4/22/2002 10:48:46 PM ET by JAYBIRD
I dunno Im a DIYer but know a lot of contractors and talk to them about their business practices. The way I would handle it is dont "charge"the clients for it. In most cases changes will happen and when they do make up for the"freebie" on something else say material or additional labor in the cost of a change order or something or even another job that the client may want in the future. It may take a while if you have to wait for another job from this client but You can make up for it in other ways. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
My opinion still stands on not charging your client; although, I do always charge for everything that is "Extra" and not included with the original work desription. I do agree with the above post pertaining to never work for free and your time is no different then a dentist or any other professional. However, for Jaybird to ask if he should charge sounds like to me that there is a question concerning the communication between him and his client. That is maybe when he took on the additional work he gave a hint of or gave the impression of or implied that "this is a favor" or "No problem don't worry about it" type response because he thought it was a piece of cake to run a few wires. Well it turned out to be a project and caused him to think twice about how he first addressed the client. This is why I feel the benifit should go to the client. This is why I always explain prior to any work, and is also included in my contract that any and all additional work will be charged by a change order. This eliminates any doubt about charging for additional work.
Jaybird, If I am wrong in my assumptions my apologies and please set me straight. I am only trying to anylize the reason why you would even ask if you should charge for additional work.
Best regards
Jaybird
I agree wiyh Sonny its PR.
The thing is you have to let the customer know what the value of this freebie was. I usually charge and then credit something like this on the invoice I've found customers seem to forget the favour if they don't see it in writing.
Hey Jaybird! If your going to keep it strickly business, I'd suggest that you mention the fact that it did take yourself away from your game plan and ask him what he thinks. You might want to hold back also until he tries it again, if it happens. I've got a few regular and repeat customers, but I charge by the hour. This way it keep's everybody from beiing taken advantage of. Now of course my hourly rate is $25.00/ hr and up, but that's including everything except electrical and wallpapering. Just tell them how you feel about it and be honest with them and especially with yourself and things will always work out. Have fun!
I'm not a New Englander but my wife is so we get Yankee Magazine every month. And the first thing I look for in each issue is "Ask Earl." "Earl" is Earl Proulx, an old guy who can solve about any homeowners problem with ordinary items or tools.
So the last issue arrives and I go to page 12 and there's a kind of memorial to Earl by the editor. Old Earl passed on at age 88 and I'm saddened. Earl, for me and probably many others, exemplified the frugality, common sense and work ethic Down-Easters are known for.
Relevant to this discussion was a piece of advice Earl had received from HIS father many years ago (and I paraphrase) that 'every man should strive to do more than he's being paid to do, and if he does, he'll always have a job.'
(I always wanted to ask Earl if there was a way to remove dried ABS pipe cement from a pair of work pants. I'll bet he would have had an answer!)
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk and cut it with an axe.
This is a reply to all, not just Notchman. I'd reply to the origianl poster, but i can't determine who it is and there isn't a button to simply post a message. This format s u c k s !
Anyways, the client asked if you could run a wire. At that time, you agreed but later determined that it took longer than you thought it would. Let's analyze what really happened:
After hearing the request, you instantly started analyzing the request to determine it's financial impact. If the request was substantial, lets say two WEEKS for the purpose of this discussion, then you immediately would have demanded compensation for your efforts. You would not have agreed without having some sort of financial discussion. Upon your immediate mental evaluation, you determined that the request was insignificant, and would have an adverse impact on you finanically if you attached a price to it and the buyer rejected you. You would have had a delay, which may or may not have been covered in your contract documents. At this moment in time, you CHOSE to honor the request without discussing the terms. There is an implication that this was a freebie because of the lack of price discussion.
Later, your "bid" blew up in your face. You incurred unforseen expenses (time overrun) and now you are considering the financial impact. You want to pass it on to the customer.
In this case, just follow the Golden Rule. Do unto others....
I'd eat the thing myself. If you've created the appropriate reserves that Sonny has so often talked about, you could pay yourself from that fund.
Don't screw up a good referral because you have poor business practices. Use this experince to learn. Don't let it happen again.
blue
Would I charge? Depends
I have done what Sonny has. "Thanks Scott what do we owe you" Forgetaboudit!
If the customer asked to have the job done AND implied reimbursement. Such as saying "how much will you charge me to run the wire" or "I don't have time, guess I have to PAY you to do it" Then I will very likely do it free.
If I suspect the customer is expecting or hoping the work will be "thrown in" gratis, it gets charged. I see a potential danger that the customer will expect similar freebees in the future. When the next task, they see as similar value, arises they've been conditioned to belive that it will be "included", and your going to upset them if it isn't.
"Don't screw up a good referral because you have poor business practices. Use this experince to learn. Don't let it happen again.
The key here is what Blue stated above. That statement is priceless! Let's be honest enough (Ma always said: "The truth hurts."), and admit that most of us were/are lousy business people. That's why we often work for nothing or at best, just wages.
Forget ego. Do not try to "buy" friendships - one of our problems - but what most will not admit too, including me for many years. Charge when needed and in a "business" manner and don't when you deem otherwise.
Policies and systems MUST be created and implemented. However, they can neither be created nor implemented if we don't know much about running a business, Duh.
So 1st things 1st.
Then, when your policies and systems are written down & established, and done by you while acting in the capicity of an "administrator", only then can you make field decisions whlile acting in the capacity of a "manager."
A business is "run" like a house is "built." Things must be done in a certain order. You don't/can't build a roof without the walls, which can't be erected without a foundation. And there must be plans. Mmmm. Plans. Like a business - a plan, as in 'business" plan, which of course, includes those policies and systems.
Business 101.
Wasn't Jaybird's initial pickle started right at the point that the homeowner asked if he wouldn't mind running the wires? That was the point when he had to make an instant choice.....do I run it for free or do I charge? Once he agreed to run it, and didn't mention billing for it, he couldn't very well tack on a charge without causing hard feelings. OTOH, if he had a prior disclosed policy of "all other work billed at $X/hr" then he'd have that leg to stand on. To me the real issue is that he has no clear policy for how to address this situation whenever it comes up.
Rather than say you shoulda or coulda done _____ this time, he should be using this example to decide how to handle it the _next_ time. I.E., establish a policy with which he's comfortable and that he can instantly call on when put on the spot.
For example, "I didn't plan for running the wire in my bid, but I'll be happy to look at it. If it's quick, then no problem, but if it takes more than X minutes, then it'll fall under the "extras" part of the contract and be billed at my T&M rate. Do you still want me to look at it?" And if it's done at NC, then add a No Charge line item to the invoice, just as a reminder.
Cloud Hidden,
Your right on target with your point. I believe everyone contributing to this post agrees that our time as professional contractors is valuable and that we should be compensated for our services, and that at times it's just good PR work to through a "bone" so to speak when we feel it will result in a postive payback down the road. But I beleive this situation was the result of poor communication from the very start of the project. I may sound like a broken record, but will say again that the subject of additional work should be mentioned in your contract and specifically dictate how this work will be handled and payed for, i.e. Change Order. When I sit down with a client at contract time not only is this explained in writing but also verbally explained. There is no doubt in my clients mind that any services rendered outside the original work description will result in $$$$.
This is a lesson learned not only for the original post but for all, that communication is the key to a smoother and less stressful day.
Cloud and Gary, you're both right.
No system. No policy. No comprehensive contract. No "tactful" way out - usually.
Good topic.
Having just got off the phone with a client who put me in a similar situation, I can relate. These things just happen.
Here's a thought for you guys. Back in my auditing days we use to have a line item denoted S.V.A., or service value added. These types of items would appear in our final billing under that heading with the associated costs and the percentage of total job. I either charge or include these items as SVA in my next and/or final bill. When taken into account with legitimate extras or change orders, it allows the customers to see in ink the kind of service you provide.
Don't confuse with SCA.Tom
I like that, Tommy.
In the immortal words of the warden in Cool Hand Luke;
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate!" ( throw in your own Southern slang/twang ) When I run into these " could you just..." situations; I stop and ponder for a moment the actual best time guess scenario, then balance it off a worst-case scenario. I then balance off the friendship factor against the tightwad factor.this all takes about two seconds. At this point I look them straight in the eye and say ( with a smirk) ( you must smirk here!) " what's it worth to you?" The gauntlet is thrown! The next look that crosses their face is the "tell". The trick is to stand there smiling pleasantly and wait for them to declare their intentions. They now have the (perhaps unwanted) opportunity to think about the value of both parties positions.
I try not to take myself too seriously. Life is short! I would rather be known as a generous, smirking sap, who did really good work and helped others along the way, than a beligerant hard head who wouldn't give an inch. Don't know about you but just about the time that I'm ready to think the world is a really crappy place, some "sap" does something unexpected and kind and gives me hope. I like to be that guy for others. Not that this proves anything but it makes me wonder...I'm booked at least a year in advance, my prior customers are my current friends, and I make a pretty good living! I believe "what goes around comes around" Miami
Jack
Its a buncha sh*t not to charge for extras IMHO unless the people are awesome and show their appreciation and the freebie is small. MOST people from my past experiance (27 years) DO NOT appreciate freebies and even EXPECT them. Kiss my booty. When ya go into a store you dont get things for nothing no matter how much you spend unless its a promotional thing. Its totallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy insane to give our back breaking work away for free if ya ask me. Its amazing how people feel like they just "got over on you" when you give them work for nothing. Not everyone mind you....just most people from all my many years. They blow it right off and then KEEP expecting freebies. Be a professional and CHARGE for your work. IMHO a FANTASTIC job at a fair price is rare so........
BE well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM