Had a septic backup through a downstairs toilet (on slab). During the ensuing clean up I am finding several things that the original builder did that I can’t believe the building inspector would pass ( ie. inadequate plumbing ventilation and clean-out access) and after talking to neighbours who have houses built by the same developer, I am not at all confident that the septic field was done properly (not enough drainage underneath the field and using sand instead of good gravel). Again I can’t imagine an inspector allowing it to pass. The backup happened after a heavy rain and the field was saturated when the washing machine went into the rinse cycle and the water had no where to go. Without going on too long, I talked to the local septic vac guy who came by to clean out the tank (not that I am expecting that to help anything) and he suggested the possibility of putting in a pump and elevating the tank and putting in a raised bed field. the ground where the field is situated is on the low side. I am going to try to hold off until late spring to get the field work done. I am going to be relying on the experience of whomever I chose to do the work once they get a look at the site and elevations. I thought I would ask for advice regarding the pump idea though. Any serious downside I should be considering??
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Built from locally sawn hemlock, this functional outdoor feature uses structural screws and metal connectors for fast, sturdy construction.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
The downside is the expense of a new field and the pump and wiring and having another mechanical thing to maintain and fail. But the pumps are pretty reliable and not that big a proble to deal with -- you just should never forget that they're there.
It's called a RAISED BED or MOUND septic system. People in the river valley here do it all the time, but you don't need to raise the tank itself, simply pump the effluent up to the level that it can drain into the mound.
Here's a really thorough education on septic alternatives, sizing, etc.
http://www.inspect-ny.com/septic/altraised.htm
Here is GOLD-LINE GLP, a gravel-less leach line. You can use your on-site sand to install it instead of hauling in gravel, and the stuff is literally a snap to put together and uses a much smaller trench. Some sanitation departments will let you cut back on the footage you'll be required to install compared to 4" PVC perf pipe.
http://prinsco.com/construction/goldline-glp.html
I dont know the codes or requirements where you are, but in my parts, everything needs to be approved by the board of health and site conditions predicate what you can and likely should use.
If they were not involved, I would personally prefer a pressure dosed system with a drainage field that did not get saturated.
A pressure dosed system is basically when the pump doses a certain amount of liquids from the 2nd tank (dosing tank) into the field. The drainage lines are typically 1 1/2 or 2" with small holes in them (I wanna say around 3/16 but the engineer tells us what to drill.
Adavantage is that the entire field gets the same amount of water every time whereas a gravity system will send water thru the lines to the lowest point and if everything is not dead level, then you will be over dosing one area.
Re. an unsaturated field, this requires proper soil testing, grading, and knowledge of the properties of the soils so that it can drain properly. A good experienced contractor will likely know this stuff but in these parts you need to be certified by the Wizard to do such stuff.
everything here needs health dept approval and inspections as well. As a matter of fact, if you call a contractor to do work on your septic field, he is required to report to the health dept so they can come out to inspect. Not sure if that was the case when the house was built or not. Based on what two of our neighbors found I am guessing inspections were not done. When the inspector looked at what they dug up he said there was no way it would ever have passed an inspection.
I like the idea of the system you and others are talking about (except for the cost part). The suggestion that I got from the local septic guy was actually for something completely different. He was suggesting a tank and pump system inside the building that pumped out to a tank outside that in turn drained out to a gravity fed field. By doing this he suggested that the current tank could be lifted/relocated so that the field could be located at a higher elevation to get it out of the low lying wet spot. The reason I posted the original question is that I was not all that excited about having a sewer pump that may need servicing inside the house. Not a service call I would be looking forward to dealing with. Does anyone have experience with that kind of system? it doesn't seem to me to have any of the advantages that a dosing system would have.
"Ejector" pumps in sealed sumps are a fairly common solution for basement plumbing situations where the basement's too low to drain naturally. The technology is very mature.But in terms of retrofit effort it would be a lot cheaper to leave the septic tank where it is and put the pump there.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I am liking the idea of the dosing system more all the time. I haven't heard of anyone locally using it before but I am going to check with the septic guys around here for some pricing. If I do end up having to redo the field I like having the flexibility to move it to a better loacation. By moving the field to the high side of the tank instead of the low side it puts me in a spot where the ground is higher with better natural run off. Might even be able to reclaim the ground where the old field is to put in a Garage/workshop........
It doesn't have the same advantages. Although I don't have evidence to support this, I tend to think that pumping into the septic tank will keep the contents stirred up.
On the other hand, if the tank is in a spot that stays wet, that could be contributing to the failure, if the tank is taking on excess groundwater. Theoretically, septic tanks are water-tight, but in practice that's hard to achieve. It can be checked by pumping the tank during wet weather and monitoring to see if water leaks in.
Moving an existing septic tank can be difficult. I've seen it done, but I've also seen tanks crack from uneven lifting forces. And the older the tank, the more likely it is to break. Just so you know that moving the tank may not work out.
Another point: With the outside tank approach the new field and distribution piping can be installed ahead of time and the switchover made in a few hours. Moving the tank and installing a sump in the house would mean several days at least with no sewage handling and a bit of a mess inside the house.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Good point.
Another is that with an outside pump set in a septic tank, there's usually more storage capacity in case of pump failure or electrical outage.
Thanks. the tank is taking on ground water from the field when it is saturated. when we pumped it out there was water flowing back in from the output.
As for the tank cracking, I asked the guy who suggested raising the tank exactly that question. He just kind of shrugged it off and said it shouldn't be a problem, he hasn't seen one crack yet. I am in no hurry to have mine be the first he gets to see!
Water flowing in from the outlet doesn't indicate a leaky tank (though it does obviously suggest a saturated field).
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Water flowing in from the outlet doesn't indicate a leaky tank (though it does obviously suggest a saturated field).Not obviously. I've never seen a "pump to" field close enough to the outlet end of a tank to cause that... no matter how saturated the field is.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Well, the first part of my statement holds regardless. The second part has a few "ifs". Obviously any time you pump there'll be a little bit of backflow as the output pipe drains back into the tank. If there is significant backflow from the output it's obviously coming from somewhere, and that would be the field. How much is "significant", though, is of course a matter of interpretation.Not clear what you meant by "pump to", though.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I misread the post, thought water was coming in from around the outlet pipe, not back through it...something's full, or crushed.pump to field is one that you pump to, instead of gravity fed.I asked my installer how I'd know if the Infiltrator system fails in the field I pump to. "When you see water spoutin' outa there, call me... quick"http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Not necessarily. I had a blockage about fifteen feet down from the tank. The field was fine. the tank was fine.
The blockage fifteen feet down slope from the tank cost me $4,000! A new tank.
I could have fixed it with a shovel and some pvc.
The problem was discovered by the tank installer.
It would be worth your while to find where the pipe splits for the field and see if water flows properly there. Mine didn't.
Are you assuming the field is saturated? Are you sure? I'd want to be sure.
Also, since the system had been backed up for some time the soil in the area was moist. This attracted a cottonwood root. If there is some backup for some time roots will find it.
The guy that installed the new pvc poured salt around the fittings to discourage roots.
I took out the cottonwood.
I am assuming a saturated drain field based on how things reacted after several heavy rains. I will definitely be investigating further in the spring before going ahead with a new field. Just looking for system alternatives ahead of time to do some investigating. Thanks.
I'd just make sure. That's all. Find where the pipe splits up for the field. Check the fittings.
All it would take is for a pipe to settle and come loose. Maybe with to little glue and you would get these symptoms. The end of the pipe would be in the dirt.
Sometimes the guy installing the pipe isn't that bright. Supporting the pipe when the hole is back filled gets overlooked as well.
Just as an aside. I lived up the street from one house that just pumped every month. $$$
The next door neighbor just down the hill ran his (a bachelor) into his front yard ( very green ivy) and down the street. people just figured he over watered his ivy ;^)
Edited 1/4/2009 3:21 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 1/4/2009 3:22 pm ET by popawheelie
FWIW there is no reason that a sewer ejector pump and tank has to be inside the house.There are standard fiberglass tanks that installed in the ground for that purpose..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
any suggestions on good products to look at?
Hmm
Were we live they don't allow septic fields in many places. So it's all pumped! we have a 1500 gal holding tank which 2 adults one teen ager We get pumped about 6-8 weeks depending on laundry. The key is reduce your consumption. Good low flush toilet, Low flow shower head, Efficient laundry and a small change of personal habits like not letting the water run when you brush your teeth, I'm thinking of putting in a grey water system.
As I told the kids use all the water you want, just don't let it go down the drain!
So it's all pumped! we have a 1500 gal holding tank which 2 adults one teen ager We get pumped about 6-8 weeks depending on laundry.Are you saying that you pump to a field, or that someone pumps your tank out and hauls it off?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I think he's saying the teenager gets all pumped up every 6-8 weeks because she isn't allowed to take long showers. The tank is large enough to hold the two adults.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 1/4/2009 3:53 pm ET by Piffin
> The tank is large enough to hold the two adults.But if the adults are getting tanked, what example does that set for the teenager?
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
He is saying that they dont have a septic system, only a holding tank which does indeed get hauled away.
I have seen this before in high water areas such as around lakes, the health dept. dictates wwhat is allowed.
Off hand no..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
As DanH pointed out, the downside to a pump system is the cost of installation. The upside is that pumping effluent to the disposal field tends to improve the performance of the system, because it creates dosing-drying cycles (i.e., the disposal system gets a slug of effluent when the pump kicks on, then rests until enough effluent accumulates to cause the pump to kick on again).
The benefits of pump systems and the dosing-drying cycle are maximized with a pressure dosing system described by JeffinPA. In my experience, most (but not all) raised bed or elevated mound systems use pressure distribution.
The biggest plus of pump system is that it allows the disposal field to be located at a higher elevation than the building sewer. Many septic systems fail even in good soils because the disposal field gets saturated by run-off or groundwater.
A downside is that you must have a two-compartment tank, and you must get the tank pumped before solids overflow into the second compartment. You have less of a safety margin than you have with a gravity system where the outlet pipe is located fairly high up in the second tank and there's no pump to stir things up.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I don't know why you consider a two compartment tank a bad thing. I don't remember the last time I saw a single unit tank. The pumps here all get their own small tank.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't consider it a bad thing (quite the opposite), but I do know that not all tanks are dual-compartment. And the (few) pump installations I've seen have the pump in the second compartment, not in a separate tank.I just wanted to alert the OP to the point that a multi-chamber tank (or series of tanks) is required, and that regular pumping out of sludge is more critical.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Two-compartment tanks are a regional thing. They do a better job of clarifying the effluent, but in this area they are unusual. Here, effluent pumps are typically installed in a second tank, in part because our regulations require storage capacity in the pump compartment of at least 25% of the estimated daily sewage flow.
I'm not sure that I'd want to install a sewage pump in the second compartment of a two compartment tank. The typical design for tanks is 48 hours of detention time for the sewage (i.e., 2x the estimated daily flow); and the first compartment of a two-compartment tank is only half to two-thirds of that volume. If you use the second compartment for the pump, you eliminate the clarifying capacity of the second chamber.
So definitely, if you are converting the second compartment to a pump compartment, you'd definitely want to be more careful about keeping the solids pumped out of the tank routinely. Or install an effluent filter between the two chambers (if the design of the tank allows). Or both, if you're a belt and suspenders kind of guy.
I don't think we are disagreeing about any of this.
Yeah, just clarifying things for the OP.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
http://www.inspect-ny.com/septic/SepticDesignBasics.htmSingle v. dual compartments. That's from my earlier link, which no one looked at. <G> You guys really should bookmark that site; it's very thorough.
Here, in addition to the primary leach field, we have to have a repair area platted out by the health dept. Infiltrator and EZ Flo are two systems that can reduce the line length by 25%.Another thing you might want check out is if there's been any traffic or digging in your field area. Crushed or cut lines work a little slower than most.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
I have a pump system because I live in flood zone. I had the system installed in 2002 for $16,000. The main tank was left in tack and a smaller tank, often called a pump tank was installed. From there it is pumped up to a raised field. I have been flooded several times and the pump ran for over 24 hours. When the water receded the field dried out and the system worked fine. I have never had a problem with the pump and the system works great even in the wet spring.
Because we live in a low-lying area, our leachfield gets saturated every winter. After tolerating slow drainage and backups for years, we finally installed a pump in our two-compartment septic tank about eight years ago. It has worked flawlessly.
dude, before you spend the big buck have the septic pumped out with a vac truck, then get some septic tank root cleaner. It is a strong acid treatment you can get from your ag store (I get mine from UFA farm stores) under 20$. Dump the stuff in the access to the secondary tank and field. It will burn out all sorts of #### from your field and really help. I had the same problem when I moved into my acreage and was about to spend the big bucks when I found the acid treatment. Trick is to dump the stuff into the field right after it has been pumped out. Realize when the ground water level is high you may have to monitor your field saturation level and treat yourself to a new energy efficient low water use front loading washer and drier with the money you save not having to re due your field. If your house is like mine, laundry day is by far the most taxing on the field; a problem I easily solved by getting rid of our old top loading washer and drier. Between water, electricity, and field repair savings, you will more than justify the new washer and drier. it will pay for itself the first year. I get my field pumped and treated with the acid flush every 18-24 months but you can do it every summer to be safe if your field is in low spot. cost of truck and acid treatment is under 100$. And help the vac truck guy when he comes. check out what he is pumping out of your tank. I was amazed at all the feminine products that had bunked up my system. After having a good chat with the ladies frequenting out home and posting a couple of signs in the washrooms for visitors I have been able to cut my vac truck visits back from one every 12 months to once every 18-24 months. If you are still having problems after that you will know its time to break out the shovel but give your existing system a chance to work after you tune it up and at least try to save what will be thousands of dollars by spending under 100$ per year on what you should consider a part of living in the country! Don't worry, as with most challenges associated with rural life, its not always as bad as it seems at first. Don't panic and don't spend before you have to!
Cheers!
S
You may be right about the poor initial installation, and you may be right to reinstall the whole drain bed, but I'm wondering why you are concluding that you need a raised bed/pump system. This adds considerable cost compared to a regular subterranean “chambers” system. Does your soil type and water table make this necessary?
Scott.
What is the ground water table? That will be a quick indication of your problem. Take a post hole digger, poke a hole out beyond your field and see where the water stabilizes in the hole. If it fills up with water you need a higher system.
I don't understand how a "heavy rain" saturated a working drainfield.
How many inches of rain did you get?
Edited 1/3/2009 5:38 pm ET by sledgehammer
poor design or it is already kaput from age or overuse.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Heavy rain saturates a drainfield when the rain causes the water table to rise above the level of the field.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
"I don't understand how a "heavy rain" saturated a working drainfield."
the problem I think is the "working drain field" assumption. Poor design leading to premature failure is what things are pointing to.