Here in Michigan, drywall is typically applied directly to the floor, ceiling or rafters.
Why then, when watching Norm and Tommy and the boys at This Old House, first apply 1×3 strapping perpendicular to the framing members and then apply the drywall? Are there any benefits to this technique? Why do you do it at all? Don’t reply that they shim the strapping to eliminate the irregularities in the framing lumber because I have never seen any shim whatsoever. Heck- even Bob Vila and Riley do it this way!
Replies
I've strapped ceilings to cut down on the span on trussed roof framing from 24" down to 16" or 12"
No idea on walls
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Edited 6/6/2003 4:57:40 PM ET by CAG
another reason to do it is too help deaden sound transmission.
Floor?
Another reason is to change the verticle 24" oc to 16" oc horizontal for standing the SR on end.
Edited 6/6/2003 7:52:42 PM ET by IMERC
its for running wires. and to brace the rafters never seen it done any other way.
Never seen it?
Can't say that anymore now. I've got another hundred or so...
Stabilize to 16"oc
Deaden sound trans....
stiffen uppr floor
shim flat - started with rough cut lumber or round poles with adze marks
wire runs
easier lathing or screwing sheet rock to a 3" surface than a 1-1/2" bottom.
Excellence is its own reward!
I think this is a regional practice. I've never seen it done as a regular practice on anything In MN. new or old. I talked to a guy in NJ. this week he says he's never seen it done there either. I do it regularly in two cases. First is to level a ceiling, with shims! (although I prefer to sister instead). Secondly, I've made it a practice to strap ceilings that have a flush beam in them. This eliminates the cracks that often occur because of movement or shrinkage at the beam.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it is code acceptable to staple Romex to the bottom of joists between strapping. I'm pretty sure most elect. codes require it to be up higher in the joist if it is concealed. Strapping also creates more headaches for insulators and mechanical people.
It was probably me who you talked to on Joe Fusco's site.
You were talking about your Hip/Hap/Jack.
It has to be a regional thing because as I once said befor when this came up, no one does in New Jersey in new construction. Every sheetrocker has always nailed right to the 2x joist, butt joist and all. Never had a problem.
When I lived in Cape Cod, that was the first time I seen it. We strapped every house.
The guys out there couldn't believe it when I told them that we screw/nail the sheetrock to the 2x's.
We only do it when we have to level an old ceiling or like you said, if we have a flush beam or an I-Beam, we'll fir out the bottom of the new joists.
Joe Carola
can't think why insulators would be bothered by it. You don't generally insulate between floors and in the attic, you can just roll out over the strapping quicker than stapling up from below.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
You are correct about the cable protection. Cable less than 1 1/4 inch from the face of the framing member must be protected by a nailing plate. Only sizes 8/3 and larger may be run under joist, and must be stapled at each joist.
Sort of shoots the idea of using the space created by strapping as a cable chase in the head, doesn't it.
Dave
"Only sizes 8/3 and larger may be run under joist, and must be stapled at each joist."
That is for Exposed wiring. This is not exposed so tht is not a limitation.
" Cable less than 1 1/4 inch from the face of the framing member must be protected by a nailing plate."
That is only for cable going THROUGH wood members.
Cables Parrallel to "framing members" need to keep the cable 1 1/4" from the nearest edge. If the AHJ treats the stapping as a framing member all you need to do is run the cables down the center between the strapping.
There is also a requirement for cables in "shallows grooves". If the slot formed by the treated as a shallow grove then it needs protection unless then is 1 1/4" free space in the grove.
For the guys who install strapping, do you put it on right after your done framing, or after the duct work is in?
I was on the job today and looked up at all the duct work running through the bays and it made me think about the strapping. I've seen the duct work come in around 8' - 10' lengths and the HVAC guys just stick it right up into the bays and screw it in.
If there's strapping on first, isn't it hard for the HVAC guys to install long lengths like that?
Even plumbers with long lengths of pvc?
Joe Carola
Edited 6/7/2003 5:13:07 PM ET by Framer
Joe, I frame in MA and we strap all cielings we frame.(If they're gonna get rocked of course) I mean we literally strap ALL of them. When I first started framing I would ask "why?" and could never seem to get a straight answer. I've heard the usual...flatter ceilings, change OC spacing etc. The only one that sort of made sense to me was regarding cathedral cielings...(and I honestly can't say whether there's any truth to it or not) I was told that it provides a gap for air to move across rafter bays, rather than just parallell to the rafters. The benefit being better circulation. I was then told that in the event of warm moist air in the rafter bays (hot humid summer day) the air wouldn't condense on the sheet rock (exposed on one side to AC) which would otherwise be in direct contact with the rafters. I then became confused and he said "ever see those faint black lines in a cathedral cieling that are exactly where the rafters are?" I said yes. He said "well the strapping prevents that".
I think that was around the time I stopped asking what strapping was for.
I remember when I was framing in Cape Cod, we strapped right after we were done framing. Never looked back to see how the HVAC guys or the Plumbers ran long lengths of duct work or PVC.
But I'm curious now as to the duct work and long lengths of plumbing.
Like I said in my first post the HVAC guys lift up 8'-10' lengths right in and screw it.
The plumbers also lift long lengths right up into the bays.
With all the strapping running perpendicular to the joists, it has to be hard for them to get long lengths in.
Do you strap right after your done framing?
Joe Carola
I do remo work and work closely with the plumber the day he shows up. (You know what plumbers can do with a sawsall) So I run strapping after the plumbing is done. We rarely work with ducts because hydronic heat is what happens here. I have seen it where they pull fex duct into older places with strapping already in place..
Excellence is its own reward!
i firmly believe in the proper sequence of events making the job easier for the next task to be completed. the man with the heaviest load has the right of way! on a cathedral ceiling i would certainly leave strapping off until insulation, plumbing, and wiring was complete, but something no one else has mentioned yet is using the strapping to hold up an additional layer of insulation in the form of styrafoam or the other more expensive stuff with a higher R value in 4x8 sheets and several different thicknesses. in the way that i use the strapping that (holding the 4x8 polystyrene) is its most important job! even if you use the spray in expanding insulation between 2x10 rafters you still have only R-10 for the 1 1/2 inch wide rafter. adding 2" of the good stuff gives you R-20 at rafters and R-47 everywhere else. and i live in california where insulation isn't nearly as important as it is an many other parts of the country. i'm pretty sure piffin said in a previous post that he does this at every opportunity.
Yeah man, as soon as the decking is down on the second floor the guys are strapping the first floor ceiling. And the odd thing is that everyone in my area does this. I also have honestly never, not once, had an electrician or plumber ask me if I could hold off a week or so 'till they're finished. I like to be long gone by the time ANY other subs decide to show up anyway, it's nothing personal, just that my productivity drops as soon as someone else hits the site. In general it's just the accepted practice in this area...right or wrong. Just like PT and sill seal, even though code doesn't require it, you'd never pass inspection with out it!
Like anything else, the good plumbers, electrictians, and HVACs clean up after themselves. The hacks just tear out whatever is in their way and somehow justify leaving it that way. Occasionally I'll get a call to comeback and fix what another subs has taken apart. Nine times out of ten it's an overnotched joist or top plate, don't think I've ever been called back to fix strapping.
Joe, we also frame alot of "plumber's boxes" into our floor systems and build alot of interior 2x6 walls for both plumbing stacks and HVAC runs.
Funny how we all do things a little differently and I must admit there was a time when I would have blindly questioned doing things any other way than I do now. Like going to church on Sunday as a kid....just did it cuz I was s'posed ta!
Woodtick is right - It's VERY regional. And just as controversial.
Try searching the archives on strapping and see how many arguements you can come up with.
The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness and kindness, can be trained to do most things. [Jilly Cooper]
My answer was going to be what Neil 4 ( CAG said) , He already said it
Be in a nice tight suit holding up.......uhhhhhh
NAmaste
Andrew ; )
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
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Here in Stevens Point, WI strapping has one purpose; packing more insulation in the walls. Strapping with the use of BIBBS (blown in insulation) can achieve R-4 per inch. Walls framed with 2"x6"s and strapped with a 2"x2" (nominal #'s) will reach R-28 in the walls. Around here winter is six months long and we don't mess around when it comes to efficiency. The strapping also eliminates 95% of the thermal bridging across studs when applied horizontally. Now you know.
strapping adds nothing to the R value. It can add to available depth but the R-value is 3.6 to 3.8 per inch regardless of how thick you place it.
Electrical runs guys,
is there exceptions in the codes for remo work as opposed to new work? That's the way the sparkies here interpret it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Well duh, the strapping doesn't add R value. I get the fact that wood has an r-value of 1. I think everyone else probably figured out that the space provided by strapping could be insulated. We use InsulSafe in the walls and cellulose in the ceilings and achieve R-4 per inch in the walls.
OK I'll admit I must be dense today.
if a blown insulation of any given type provides an R-value of say 3.6 per inch, how does adding strapping change that r-value to R-4?
Even if you are talking about stopping thermal bridging, the R per inch remains the same. What am I missing?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Ok Piffin we were just not on the same page. I certainly didn't mean to imply that strapping in and of itself has the magical power to increase the R-value of any given insulation. What I meant to say is simply that if you make the wall thicker you can achieve a higher total r-value, not the value per inch. If your insulation is 3.6/inch than filling a 7" strapped inch (R-25.2) wall as opposed to a 5-1/2" wall (R-19.8) will achieve the higher value. Sorry for being unclear. You must have thought is was freakin' nuts.
In Pennsylvania, Virginia, and North Carolina, I've never seen strapping. Actually, I think it's a great idea, it's got to fair out the the 2x framing some. Must drive the insulators nuts, and the plumbers . Getting drain lines in must be a beatch. EliphIno!
Haven't seen it in California either, except for one house that my father built in 1956. It that case it was done for supporting an unusual compressed sugar cane ceiling material. I'm sure LADBS would insist on plates for the romex .
-- J.S.
It's those black diamonds. Strapping allows you to go back to the red arrows.
(In English: strapping on 12" or 16" centers; joists are on 19.2" centers.
That's kinda what I thought you meant to say.
There's other people here who are freaking nuts..
Excellence is its own reward!
I put strapping on ceilings that are covered with Reflectix or similar brands of bubble-foil vapour barrier to bump up the total R value of the insulation package. The bubbles are too thick and push too hard back on the gyprock without it; the screws pull through if you try to go directly under it.
I'll also put strapping on walls or ceilings in a renovation where the stud spacing of the original framing is, shall we say, less than even. It saves a lot of cursing and sistering as you try to hang each sheet.
I don't understand Piffin's objection to horizontal strapping on walls; I prefer to lay up my gyproc vertically--maybe because I'm tall I don't have to wear stilts to spackle the vertical joints from the ceiling down! (Okay, okay--I use a milk crate. So sue me....)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
"I don't understand Piffin's objection to horizontal strapping on walls;"
I don't understand it either, I don't remember saying that. Maybe you misunderstood my piece with Dave, I think it was, about how to figure R-value when doing it that way, but I had no objection to the horizontal strapping. My own house is that way on the second floor and in the basement..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry, Piffin. It wasn't you, it was CapnMac who posted that. I must have gotten an attack of CRS....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
CRS happens to you old guys, like you and piff,
see us new guys just suffer from DKSNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Don't have any idea what CRS is but I'll have to agree that you younger guys do have problems with your DKS.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
CRS can't remember sh!t
DKS Don't Know Sh!t.
I'm not touching that last comment, this being a family oriented site and all, but I will say Viagra wasn't invented for us young pups....Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
On the MSN headline page I saw a thing about a new "Viagra-type gum" by Wrigley. I guess it would add a new reason for not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
I read somewhere--can't think where, exactly--that it stands for "Can't Remember Sh--uh, Something?"
Hey, did I ever tell you about that time in dubbleyuhdubbleyuh II....Oh, I told you that one, eh? You sure...?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
USG has some info on this on their site. Look for the construction manual.
It's regional and has/causes as many arguments as rafter/collar ties.
I was taught that you used strapping anytime you needed "proper" spans for the board being installed. So, if the studs (or joists, or rafters, or trusses) are 24" OC, you strap to get a 16" OC spacing for drywall.
Also, certain sheet stock needs smaller spacing, blue and green board need 12" spacing for ceiling applications, strapping is much cheaper than fitting in more joists.
As someone who has hung too much board, I object to strapping as it almost always runs the "wrong" way to the sheets. So, if you strap the walls, the straps will be horizontal. Now, my sheetrock has to run vertical--which is a pain. And usually too many joints. Oh well, such is life.
I keep seeing this thread. I keep thinking that since I am a straight male I really prefer not to be involved with a strap on. But each to his own I guess.
I think I saw the episode and believe that in older houses that had lath and plaster where new drywall is to be used, the strapping merely allowed a way to shim the finish wall or ceiling surface flat.
For ceilings, an added benefit is reducing the span of drywall to 16-inches. I would not advise spanning 24-inches with anything less than 5/8-inch board. That being said, I would rather strap and lift 1/2-inch board.
On walls I see no benefit other than allowing shimming of the straps to provide a flat surface.
How does strapping with 1x3's make the wall or ceiling straighter? It's impossible for if the joist or stud is crooked, the strapping will also not be level. Never seen it here in New Jersey. If you want straight walls and ceilings, use RC-1 Channel which actually does lessen sound transmission, strapping also cannot do that for the sound vibrations simply pass thru the wood to the rock. RC-1 lessens sound vibrations., also RC-1 Channel is the #1 way to prevent cracking, ridging, etc. of drywall.
Mighty strange that someone who has never seen it or done it can state so clearly that it can't straighten wall planes when everyone who does it for that purpose knows that it works. You are sounding lkike one of those aeronautical engineers who can prove that bumblebees can't fly.
but I've actually seen one go buzzing through the air!
The channel is a good way to do it but so is wood..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Since I'm new to strapping, never seen it nor do I wish to, tell me that if a ceiling is crooked, all you need to do is nail or screw on 1 x 3 on the joist and voila, a straight ceiling. That''s like making a straight line on a curve - how is it done?
1x3 vs. RC-1 Channel- - no contest! The RC-1 will make the ceiling straighter as the RC-1 flexes, does a 1 x 3 flex? RC-1 will not shrink, 1x3's will, etc., etc.
RC-1 has been proven in a university study to actually eliminate drywall cracking, settling, deformation as it actually is a vibration damper.
"I'm a King Bee Bayby, buzzing around your hive..." - Redone by The Stones
No - you'ver got to shim it. It's less automatic than the channel.
but your earlier comment is what I was responding to , which was that it isn't possible...
It really is possible and good..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Did not appreciate the fact that shimming is required - then it's level. Still I think that for "minor" irregularities, RC-1 is the way to go.
Strapping is rarely applied here in NC. I have done a few ceilings that had particurally warped ceiling joists/rafters.
Here is some food for thought for all of you...
I just finished manageing the construction of 13 homes that were energy star certified by Advanced Energy: http://www.advancedenergy.org
The Energy Star certification process included several inspections including an insulation inspection.
One important concept the guys from Advanced Energy were adament about was that there should be no airspaces between the sheetrock and the insulation. For example, this is the reason for face stapeling kraft faced insulation batts in walls. We also found it better to blow loose fill insulation in ceilings since the insulators had trouble keeping batts flush to the ceiling plane where there were obstructions such as wires, etc.
Now, think about how strapping effects this situation...
Matt
PS: for any of you who don't know what Energy Star is, it is a program administered by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency: http://www.energystar.gov/ You have probably seen energy star stickers on computers, computer monitors, and appliances.
dirishinme...isinmetoo..
anyways.. advanced energy is blowing smoke...
first .. kraft paper faced insulation is the pits.. and fiberglass sucks..
so the deal about no airspaces between the drywall and the kraft paper is bogus... their insulation spec sucks...
from best to worst with no consideration for cost.. here's the best walls...
1) spray foam
2) sheet foam & dens-pack cellulose
3) dens-pack cellulose
4) blown in fiberglass
5) friction fit fiberglass with poly vapor barrier
6) kraft faced fiberglass..
for our climate with today's fuel costs.. number 3 makes the most sense to meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike:
First, Advanced Energy said they would prefer we use celloluse, but would certify the houses if we used face stapled kraft faced fiberglass. They said that the most important thing was that whatever insulation was iinstalled had to be done in a perfect maner. Celulose would have added about $900 to the cost of each "affordale" house, and 2 weeks to the delivery schedule. You said "no consideration for cost" - what panet do you build on :) The energy upgrades were allowed $2 per square foot, much of which went into upgraded HVAC equipment.
Second, you don't see many people using poly film as in wall vapor barrier as much as you used to in this area - the reason is the mold concerns. AE said they wanted the sheetrock to be the air barrier, and wanted some breathability in the rest of the wall assembly - with no air voids. Remember, it is more hot and humid here in NC than it is in NY/NJ where, if memory serves, you live, so your expierence with vapor barrier may not apply to NC.
Third, these guys at AE make a living at acting as consultants for energy efficeint building, and some of them have been at doing the research, etc, for 20+ years. These guys are *real* building scientists. They are are an independent company, however they are somehow affiliated with NC state university as their office is on campus. And they gaurentee the enrgy bills. Sorry bud... my money is on them.
Edited 6/14/2003 7:33:01 PM ET by DIRISHINME
matt, i can get cells blown in cheaper than batts of fiberglass.. that's the IPAnet i live in..
also.. fiberglass has a big problem with air movement thru it,, and the kraft is as close to zero effective as you can get..
lstiburek doesn't recommend glass.. none of the weatherization guys who do it for a living recommend it.. the only ones selling it are insulators and owens corning..
if you are concerned about poly trapping moisture .. you should convert to cells.. cells will absorb moisture and then release it to the exterior .. either in , or out..
fiberglass will act as a condensing surface.. turning vapor into droplets and letting it collect on the horizontal framing members... glass sucks.. kraft paper sucks.. wether NC, NJ or........ RI where i live...
but .. you do get a gold star for caring about it.. and i do commend you for building energy star homes.. too bad about the fiberglass... oh well, never mindMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You say:
"fiberglass will act as a condensing surface.. turning vapor into droplets and letting it collect on the horizontal framing members... "
Hummm... That's the first time I've heard that... I'll have to check into it. Sounds very interesting.
I'm not recommending fiberglass and aparently you have similary priced options that are readily available to you, which is a good thing but not the case here.
But speaking more to the topic of strapping (as you all call it - we call it firing (sp?)) the recomdation is that there not be voids in the building envelope. The reduced thermal bridgeing sounds like a big plus though... and might be a fair trade off if the customer wants to pay the upcharge.
Actually, in my personal house, I have 3 ceilings "strapped" and 1 wall with metal channel. The channel is for sound.Matt
V Star 1100 Classic
Black-n-Chrome
matt.. with cells ... even if we strap the ceiling ( and we ALWAYS do) there are still no voids..
as to costs.. they used to be less than fiberglass for attics.. then we developed some techniques for blowing walls AFTER the blueboard was hung but before the skim coat.. then , in hanging around here i was taught a few things about blowing cells i didn't know.. like Regal wall..
now we blow all our own jobs.. we put mesh on the walls and blow them as soon as the electrician and plumber are roughed...
we can blow the attics the same way.. but my plasterer will hang the ceilings for me if i ask... before he hangs the walls.. so we don't need mesh on the ceilingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
One final little question
You say "blueboard was hung but before the skim coat.. "
Are you saying you plaster most of your jobs?? Just curious.
Matt
Edited 6/15/2003 9:50:40 AM ET by DIRISHINME
unless the house already has drywall.. we plaster everything.. drywall went out around here in the early 80's....
blueboard with skimcoat plaster is the standard... usually about $1.25 - $1.50, matls & labor
we use drywall & durabond for patchingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
yes we call it "firring " too in Rhode Island.. the " strapping" is a term they use on BT.. so I use it so as not to confuse the issueMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I realize that you have ahumid cooling climate while Mike and I are in heating climate so that effects energy design to some degree, such as the need to keep that inside VB on the outrside for you, but let me give you something to think about before you fall down worshipping the Energy star gods...
They are asking that you increase the "breathability of the house and insulation package at the same time that they are recommending that you place the kraft face in such a way that it reduces the movement of air.
Isn't that like turning on your fan while zipping up your windbreaker?
Fibreglass is the most "breathable" ( meaning leaky) insulation there is. May be acceptable in Carolina but up where insulation means something, fibreglass is laughable for serious insulation packages..
Excellence is its own reward!