How high should the top of the toilet flange be in relation to the finished floor? Flush, raised, or below, and by how much? Finished floor will be ceramic tile, if that should matter.
Regular type toilet, nothing fancy.
Thanks in advance.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
Pete,
The bottom of the toilet flange should ideally be even with the finished floor. If anything, it could be lower.
Wait to install the flange until after the floor is installed, if possible.
I like the Fernco rubber seal instead of the wax ring. It makes a perfect seal every time. Just make sure the bottom of the toilet is clean. And, make sure the flange is no higher than the finished floor.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Thanks for the info. I've done a lot of different things, but never setting the flange.
Should be no problem. PVC, and easy access underneath. I'll tile it then put the flange in.
Thanks again.Pete Duffy, Handyman
You should run the tile right up to the drain so that when you set the flange the rim rests on your tile all around. provides good support also. Plus if it ever would leak, you'll lessen how much makes it to the subfloor to start rotting it. I know it's anal for some, but I cut the tile around the 3" drain opening so that the tile forms a ring around the drain.
I agree with others, the fernco seals are excellent choices when installing the fixture. It's almost impossible for the seal to ever deteriorate. Plus, the ferncos allow the flange to be up to 1" I believe below the finish floor which is sometimes a great thing when doing a flooring remodel where you go over the existing floor. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
"I agree with others, the fernco seals are excellent choices when installing the fixture."Are you talking about this type of product?http://www.fluidmaster.com/connect_products_7500.htmlI never heard of Fernco making them. Fludimaster and another small compnay made them.
Just finished a bathroom today. My plumber has me place them right on the finished floor. He just leaves me a stub under the floor then after the tile is in, I place the flange on top.
Last one I did the plumber set the flange on the cement backer board. The tile was 5/16" thick. I offered to cut a nice round hole in the tile so that he could set the flange on the tile, but he preferred it on the CBU.
I put em on the finished floor.
I'll 3rd the rubber gasket - toilets can sometimes rock, especially on uneven tiles (saltillo, eg), adn a wax gasket would remain squashed into the lowest position once it lost its 'stick', letting fluid seep out. BTW, many people caulk the toilet into place, too, to reduce this movement.
Sit the flange onto the top of the tile - ideally it should be 3/8" above F.L. If it's too late, you may buy an extender kit that has perhaps 3 add'l rings , neoprene gaskets, adhesive, etc.
ciao for niao
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Edited 7/30/2005 1:22 am ET by piko
A correct installation of a toilet should not rock. Most codes that I know require caulking. [This is just information]. May the force be with you.
I caulk anyway, not because of the toilet leaking out, but to keep any "leaks" from getting under the toilet from the outside. Little boys don't always have good aim.Pete Duffy, Handyman
As one inspector explained to me (and I believe him).... the caulk is not to prevent leaks in either direction, it's to stabilize the toilet. Think about it, there are two bolts and a sheet metal flange and nothing else, except caulk.
If there were a leak at the seal, the caulk would prevent you from noticing as quickly, and would allow a lot more damage to the subfloor before the problem was detected.
Caulk the front and the side. Leave the back open so that it will show any leakage from the seal.
Oh... no way... that means I'll have to send back the special 180-degree caulking gun I just got!
Bill I think you made a boo boo on your post about caulking toilets. If you don't caulk all around the toilet the leak will show up in the ceiling below,. unless you have a stoppage, a leak will not show up near the toilet[Most of the time] until the ceiling below caves in. BTW you are right most times.
I don't know where you live, but what you are saying is caulk is used to stabilize a toilet, that is wrong, caulk is a seal, not something that holds a toilet down, if your toilet is not stable before caulking it has been installed wrong. Since water seeks the path of least resistance any problem that you have will show up in the ceiling below. BTW there are no closet flanges make out of sheet metal that I know off. I think you have to check on the inspector that you are talking to. Luck.
Caulk is useful to keep a toilet from "walking". Not really sufficent to prevent rocking.But I personally don't favor caulking around the bowl unless there are small boys in the household. Caulking around the flange may be wise.If you look at any "modern" toilet flange you will see that it's plastic with a thick sheet metal stamping reenforcing the flange area.
We have not seen a metal flange here in over 20 years.
They sell steel ones at HD in BC, Canada. In my opinion they are garbage: Over time the metal is going to rust. Sioux Chief makes a stainless steel flange, I think that is the best way to go. It is stronger than plastic, will not deform over a period of time like ABS flanges and they will not rust. The only downside is my local supplier has to order them in for me. Nobody else is using them, I don't know why.
Edited 7/31/2005 5:48 pm ET by myhousereno
My local supplier has PVC flanges with the SS ring. I asked him: Why do you have these and no SS screws to install them with? Now he has a box of #14 x 2" FH SS SMScrews available by the piece, or you can buy a box of 100 from him.
SS is the only way to go, along with the Fernco seal.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
About half of the molded plastic ones have a metal insert imbedded. And there are the ones where the pipe part is plastic and the entire flange part is stamped steel. Haven't seen brass for eons, have never seen an SS flange.In general, expecting the flange to hold the toilet is wishful thinking.
Sorry you don't agree. Caulk stabilizes toilets and I have heard from more than one qualified person about it. I don't have any reason to believe you are more qualified than the person who originally mentioned it to me, a union plumber turned specialty plumbing inspector in a large city.
The flanges that a lot of plumbers use are ABS plastic with a stamped sheet metal ring that you fasten to the floor and then engage the closet bolts to. They do a fairly good job of securing a toilet but why wouldn't you gain something from the caulk? I remove quite a few toilets for remodel jobs and sometimes find that the metal part of the flange is deformed because the toilet has been rocked or the bolts were overtightened. I have also seen the porcelain broken at the bolt hole.
An adhesive caulk like Polyseamseal acrylic latex does quite a bit to solidify the installation. Who knows, the client may weigh 300 lbs and exert quite a force on the thing as they plop down to do their business.
I'll say it again, caulk is designed to seal not to support. A toilet should not rock without sealant, they usually rock because the flange was installed incorrectly. [I. E. there was many years when caulk was not around why didn't these toilets rock?]. [If you don't have the time to do it right, where will you find the time to do it over]. May luck be with you.
Actually, many old toilets were set with, IIRC, "bedding compound", a sort of white putty. You'd put it around the edges of the toilet (kind of like buttering a brick), set the toilet, then wipe away the excess. Recall watching toilets set this way as a kid.
You are correct. Old time toilets were not only sealed around the base with putty, they were also sealed to the sanitary line with the same substance. [They didn't have wax seals then]. This practice was banned by the codes that I'm familiar with many years ago because the putty would break down and the toilet would leak water at the base, or the most inportant thing was leaking at the sanitary connection. [Been there, done that]. Luck.
At least one I recall being installed was sealed with a regular wax ring (obviously before imbedded horns) and bedded with the putty stuff. Been a long time ago (obviously) so I don't recall too many details, but I remember the ring being beeswax (and it was real beeswax back then).
When I got into the plumbing trade, 1960 they were using beeswax in a limited way; probably cost. have a good one.
And I'll say it again... I have had an inspector require it for support. Of course the toilet doesn't rock to begin with, but I'll tell ya' what, if I install one in your house I will make sure it rocks.
If I post an answer to a forum question, it is not a categorical answer. What you have to do is run the posts through your head and decide what you think is the best response to your question. [Think about this, if the toilet doesn't rock, why does the inspector require caulk to stabilize it?] Your final post about making my toilet rock is not nice. I'm done with this post, whatever floats your boat, go for it. Luck.
Well, you seem very absolute about your answer, that caulk is not necessary and would not help stabilize a toilet installation. We'll have to agree to disagree. As far as your toilet rocking... it's just a little bit of good natured jabbering, sorry if it was offensive.
This is the tried and true method. These materials have a 100-year or better track record; as far as I know they should still be available most places. They are available up here in the boonies...and the 'selection' of building materials available locally is notorious for being limited to what the 'suits' at the chain H-Q think we need to buy....
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The flange is cast bronze; it's laid on top of the finished floor. The waste-line connector is lead. (These days, the lead comes glued into an ABS connector when you buy the fitting.) You cut the lead off with a sawzall or hacksaw about an inch above the flange, and flare it down onto the flange. Then you set the toilet with a wax ring.
The framing under the floor should provide doubled joists or sleepers boxing the waste pipe for attaching the flange, and additional joist doubling for supporting the toilet itself. The finished floor under the toilet should be flat.
I do not cault around the base of a toilet. (1) It looks (to my eye) unprofessional; (2) it gets stained yellow and nasty with pee very soon after installation; (3) and it is unnecessary. If an inspector insisted I do it, I would insist on seeing the code item and/or his supervisor.
A good installation with a fresh wax ring of the proper thickness will squish out the wax all over the flange and seal up the floor penetration against anything but really major bathroom flooding. Little boys missing their shot or getting carried away with their rubber duckies won't create a collapsed ceiling or rotted joists down below if the toilet installation was done properly in the first place.
I have seen some toilets set in plumber's putty; when I have seen this, it is usually where the floor was very uneven. Putty is meant to be used as a combination of bedding compound and water-stop; it's classic use is in faucet installations, where it prevents splash water from drooling down inside the cab and swelling up the countertop substrate. It can serve the same purpose underneath a toilet if the installer doubts the wax will seal well enough due to the condition of the floor.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thats a good reason, if you also have a finished ceiling below you don't want any water going through, confine the problem to one floor only; things like a stoppage, little boys playing in the tub, any water that can seek the easiest way out. Lots of luck.
"A correct installation of a toilet should not rock. Most codes that I know require caulking. [This is just information]. May the force be with you."
Even if the codes didn't require caulking, I would definitely do it. A few years back we bought a house. Less than two weeks after we moved in, the 2nd floor toilet overflowed, there was no caulking around the base of the toilet so the water ran under it & on to the ceiling of the first floor.
If the base of the toilet had been caulked, it would have just been a mess on the floor to clean up instead of replacing the drywall in the foyer ceiling.
When I set a toilet flange I use a scrap of PT plywood under the flange. I keep different thickness around depending on the thickness of the tile. The flange is installed before the tile floor and screwed through the scrap plywood to the subfloor with SS screws.
I always use wax from an extra wax ring to seal around the flange before installing the toilet. (Don't forget to seal the unused screw holes, over the SS screws and around the toilet bolts.)
Never caulk around the toilet. If the flange is leaking I want to know ASAP.
Caulk will not properly stabilize a rocking toilet. I'd use a small amount of latex cement on top of a scrap of plastic. I use the plastic so that if/when the toilet needs to be replaced the person doing it is not faced with a toilet that is cemented in place.
"Never caulk around the toilet. If the flange is leaking I want to know ASAP"
I'm just curious as to what you do to prevent a toilet overflow or bathtup splashing by the kids from leaking to the floor below?
The caulk/wax around the flange.
That make sense, but do you think it would dry out okay underneath? I imagine there wouldn't be too much airflow underneath the toilet.
"Never caulk around the toilet. If the flange is leaking I want to know ASAP"
I'm just curious as to what you do to prevent a toilet overflow or bathtup splashing by the kids from leaking to the floor below?
That's why I seal around the toilet flange with wax before I set the toilet. (Sorry if that was't clear in my post.)
I also shim under the subfloor around the perimeter of the room so that any leak or splashing ends up forming a puddle in the middle of the room instead of running over to the corner of the room and finding the hole where the electrician ran his wire or whatever to then leak down to the floor (or in my case the apartment) below.
You are right!