I have to replace a toilet gasket on an American Standard toilet. I have seen the new rubber waxless gaskets and the hardware store employee recommended them based on the number sold. I called American Standard tech support and asked for their advice on wax vs waxless. The American Standard tech support folks said to use the wax gasket….it being the tried and true method. Any opinions on which product to use?
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Replies
No leak.
Use a wax ring with the no-leak feature.
No-Leak Feature
Is it safe to assume that they will give me one with the no-leak feature or should I specifically ask for it?
I think someone is giving you something if they claim any piece of plumbing is "no leak".
(I'm guessing Mike means a gasket with a "horn", which is what I always use. Makes it almost foolproof.)
You're right. They're "anti-leak". Kind of like adult diapers.
Waxless gaskets were all the rage several years back, but I don't see them pushed as much anymore.
Toilet Gasket
I installed the wax gasket with the horn. This toilet was a replacement that was installed by a plumber around 6 years ago. Ceiling stains appeared approximately 3 years after that installation. The flange sits on the finished tiled floor and I used a thick wax horned gasket...I was told using a thicker gasket even though I didn't really need to was ok. Yesterday I installed a regular thickness horned gasket. I outlined the water stain on the ceiling right after yesterday's installation....there has been a slight spread of the the stain and I am hoping this is from when I flushed to empty the toilet before I removed it.....if not I'll do it again....oh joy....the only positive is that my technique is improving e.g I use a shop vac to get all the water out of the tank and bowl.
The thickness of the gasket depends on the relative position of the flange vs the finished floor. Ideally the flange should sit atop the finished floor, being "proud" about 3/8". Much higher and you can't use a gasket with horn since the horn plastic will interfere with the toilet sitting flat. About the lowest the flange can go with a standard gasket is flush with the finished floor -- much lower and you need a thicker gasket. Or, in a pinch, you can use two standard gaskets, with the horned one (if you use one) on the top.
Before you start, though, make sure that the toilet fits flat on the floor and doesn't rock or wobble at all. Ideally, if there is "interference" with an uneven tile or wood floor, grind down the floor in spots until the tollet sits flat. (Carbon paper from a fabric store is a good way to find the high spots.) Otherwise, use shims to make the toilet sit flat and solid.
If the toilet rocks at all then any gasket will eventually leak. If the toilet sits solidly on the floor (and the floor itself is solid) then the gasket will last 50 years or more.
double up.
I'll often use two wax rings, one with the horn and one without.
Any benefit to more wax ?
Any benefit to having more wax? Also, I read some blogs from plumbers that they don't like to use the rings with horns....just like plain wax. Sounds like a matter of personal preference.
There is a "right" amount of
There is a "right" amount of wax, beyond which it just gets in the way and can (in extreme cases) actually contribute to seal failure.
The horn assures that the setup can't seriously fail, even if the gasket doesn't seal tightly.
So, four wax seals isn't better than two?
The only benefit is accomodating a low flange or a goofy floor.
Wax Toilet Rings
Flange sits on top of the finished tile floor. I just used a regular wax ring with horn this time. I put a pencil line around the stain right after I finished. There has been a slight amount of stain spread since then. I'm wondering if the original dampness is leeching or I screwed up the installation. I'm going to get an inspection camera to see what's going on before I redo the ring or call a plumber. This ain't fun.
What I like to do (especially since both our toilets are in fairly tight spots) is install the gasket on the bowl, then sit it on top of two pieces of 2x4 on edge so I can eyeball the alignment of the gasket with the flange and get the bolts threaded through OK. Then, when it's looking good, twist the 2x4s flat, then remove them.
You get near perfect alignment that way, and it makes it a fairly easy one-man job.
As to gasket thickness, I figure the gasket should be about 1/3 thicker than the distance between the flat of the bowl and the flange.
Good Tip
Thank You for the suggestion. I've got to redo it. I'll use the 2 X 4's. I thought I had the alignment but I guess not. Was it you that screws a nut onto the bolts to hold then upright on the flange? I thought that was a good idea too. The only positive to doing this is that I get extra practice.
What I've done is use "speed
What I've done is use "speed nuts" on the bolts. They go on easy and occupy very little space, reducing the chance of interference if the fit is close.
Speed Nuts it is
I've never heard the term 'speed nuts'.. Do they go by other names?
"Speed nut" is all I've ever
"Speed nut" is all I've ever known them by. I suppose the gubberment has some other designation.
View Image
There are easily a dozen different styles, and the above is the one that works best in this situation. A good hardware store will have a drawer full.
Speed Nut
I have seen them. Never noticed what they were called.
Thank You
I guess sometimes they're called "jam nuts".
nuts
With the picture you provided I should be able to find them.
Thank You
nuts
With the picture you provided I should be able to find them.
Thank You
nuts
With the picture you provided I should be able to find them.
Thank You
nuts
With the picture you provided I should be able to find them.
Thank You
They should come with the toilet bolts.
Yeah, I think sometimes the bolts come with plastic washers that serve the same purpose.
Toilet Bolts
I was present when the toilet was installed and the plumber did not use them. Maybe I'll just buy new toilet bolts when I buy the wax ring. But first I'm going to get an inspection camera and see if it is the wax gasket.....I installed a new wax gasket with horn last Saturday and the water stains on the ceiling below continued. The floor around the flange was completely dry but the gasket I removed last Saturday had damp areas. I hope it isn't something else.
It's usually best to get new bolts anyway. The old bolts were likely cut off after installation, and it's devilishly difficult to get the nuts started on them when they've been shortened.
Wasn't the Toilet
I bought the inspection camera, cut some small holes in the ceiling and found that it was a water supply pipe that was leaking due to corrosion. I guess that I didn't really need to replace the wax gasket last week. Now the fun begins....saw a few other green corrosion spots on the leaking pipe....will have to see how far they go before determining how much pipe to replace. The water pipe runs beside a joist and through solid blocking that is installed in 16 inch intervals.
If you have copper pipe corroding through then you likely have acid water. Check with your supplier to see if that's the case, and, if so, you might as well change out as much of the copper as possible for PEX.
And there is some merit to the concept of sealing around the flange with something (caulk, grout, whatever) so that any leakage will run out onto the floor rather than seeping down into the ceiling below.
If you use enough you don't need the toilet.
so far so good
Installed a new kohler toilet last year with a wax seal. Started leaking at the base recently when flushed. I decided to try the fluidmaster waxless system. When I pulled the toilet the wax was compressed down to probably 3/16 or less and it didn't look as if it had even contacted the base of the toilet. Nothing to scrape off as there usually is. As i recall I had used an extra thick namebrand wax ring and not the thin one that came with the toilet so I don't have a clue as to why it leaked especially since the flange sits on top of the tile as opposed to being recessed.
The instructions were a bit confusing but I think I got it right. When I first tried to set the toilet it wouildn't go down enough. I tried using the thinner ring but it didn't look like it fit the 4" cast iron flange good enough. I ended up using the thick ring but manually pulled it up over the "ledge" that was stopping it from seating properly.
Wax gasket
Was the leak on the floor around the toilet or on the ceiling below? Mine is on the ceiling below. I just picked up an inspection camera and I'll enlarge the hole I poked with my finger and look around just to confirm that it is the wax that I didn't do right. If I find that it's anything else other than a cracked toilet bowl I'll call a plumber.
on the floor
Mine was leaking out the left side of the toilet base when the toilet was flushed. I caught it soon so no water got thru to the ceiling below. The waxless system appears to be a sound design and since I've had some other wax seal failures over the years I may be a permanent convert to this system.
Toilet Leaks
Any thoughts on why so many are against the rubber gaskets?
I haven't looked at them for several years, but when I did it seemed that there was not much to assure that they maintained pressure against the flange and horn, in spite of any motion.
Toilet Gaskets
When I went to the hardware store the employee immediately reached for the rubber gasket. I aksed what it was and he said the latest technology....'people loved them and they were flying off the shelves'....was the flying due to the leaking and needing replacement? I chose the wax based on the toilet manufacturer's advice.