My neighbor asked if I thought Edison’s meter could be faulty at her house. She pays average $473 per month while our highest bill was $170 and another neighbor with the same model house as hers, also with a pool, pays $230.
Edison’s rates are punitive; set up to charge higher rates as usage increases, but still, paying twice as much as the neighbor suggests something is amiss.
She called Edison but they are reluctant to check out the meter.
What can she do?
BruceT
Replies
Don't compare price,
Compare KWHr's
Electric meters rarely fail.
She could try reading her own meter for a few months. Here's a site that shows how:
http://bge.apogee.net/res/refrmtr.asp
Then ask herself about her consumption patterns. (And check out that teenage son with a grow-op in the basement!!!??!!!)
Scott.
"And check out that teenage son with a grow-op in the basement!!!??!!!"LOL. Her son is a cop. Actually, she and hubby are empty nesters now.BruceT
The one significant possibility is that the meter has been incorrectly entered into the system, so that the readings on it are misinterpreted. If it's remotely possible that her bill is 10x too high it can be the presence or absence of the lowest digit that's the problem (easy to check). Otherwise, there's a possibility that there is a "shunt" recorded as being on the meter and it isn't there or it has a different value from what's on the books.
There are probably other possibilities if the meter is set up for remote reading.
First check out the meter and make sure that the readings on the meter correspond with the readings recorded on her bill. (Also look at the bill for any mention of a "shunt" or "multiplier'.) Then begin shutting down loads and see if you can bring the meter to a stop. Likely you'll find some load (probably associated with the pool) that makes a big difference.
If you can get your hands on a clamp-on ammeter (and you're not too uncomfortable poking around in the breaker panel) that can help quite a bit.
If it seems that the meter really is off, you need to run a test with everything off in the house except some known load (such as a large electric space heater), and determine how many KWH the meter says are consumed in one hour.
"...there's a possibility that there is a "shunt" recorded as being on the meter and it isn't there or it has a different value from what's on the books."'splain please? What's a shunt?BruceT
A meter may have a shunt of a known (low) resistance across the terminals. If the resistance of the shunt is 1/9th of the resistance of the meter, then nine times as much current will flow through the shunt as through the meter, and the meter will read 1/10th of the total current flow. This allows the meter to be used for services that draw more current than the meter can handle.Normally a shunt wouldn't be used on a standard residential service, but the computer programs don't know that and if a shunt is erroneously recorded as being installed then the computer will multiply the meter reading by the factor that shunt calls for. The result would be that the customer is billed for several times the actual consumption.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
"If you can get your hands on a clamp-on ammeter (and you're not too uncomfortable poking around in the breaker panel) that can help quite a bit."I have a Fluke T5 600 that can measure amps, but there is no room in that old PushMatic combo meter/breaker panel to get it around the wires.Is there a cheap device to insert between breaker and load-side wire so amps can be measured? I suppose I could just make an omega-shaped length of 10ga wire and put an insulated alligator clip on one end to connect to the load wire and then screw the other end to the breaker post.
BruceT
Yeah, just a piece of wire more or less like you describe would do it. I'd suggest using a split bolt connector or some such instead of the alligator clip.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
First compare kWh. And look at all of the bill. There are a number of things that go wrong or be confusing on the bill.
If she is on level pay then she might be paying for years of underbilling.
Or it might have gotten listed as a commerical usage or other rates that are much higher than residential.
And look at the acutal start/stop meter readings, if they show those, and look at previous billings and at the current meter reading.
If this is just a onetime jump it might have been miss read.
If all of that does show a high consumption rates then you have a number of issues to look at.
And they range from neighbors stealing power, 'kids' with grow lights in the attic, defective equipment, and use of electric space heaters to "save" gas.
I have looked at this and it is very, very limited and rare that an electrical meter can read high.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for your reply.I looked at her bill. She is being charged for more KWH than any of the neighbors, about 60-80% more.She is on level pay, but her bills have always been high, so making up for years of under billing is not likely to be the cause.Commercial rates is not the answer. She pays the same rate per KWH in each category level of our stepped-rate system, but no one else in the neighborhood gets into usage-level 5.How would defective equipment draw huge amounts of power? I checked their old fridge in the garage and it was drawing 2.5A while the motor was running. Don't know how much of the time it runs; if 24/7 would = 216KWH per month.Her ex wired lights and outlets in a homemade office in the garage fed by an extension cord plugged into the original duplex outlet. Bad idea and somewhat dangerous but, I would think, unlikely to pull huge amounts of current without burning up the extension cord.
One of the posters told of high draw on a low-voltage lighting system that had leakage to ground. Is something like that possible in 120V or 240V house current? She has some underground wiring in conduit going to the pool pump and pool lights. Can current on such circuits be somehow bleeding into the earth?BruceT
The wire loop with an alligator would work to get the current measurements.Someone, I think that it is Fluke, has a meter fairly thin "probe" with a slot in it for measuring current that might work. Instead of using a current transformer, like the clamp on ones, it has a hall effect device and will work on DC also.As what is causing the hit consumption look seriously at the pump pumps.If the timers or controls or bad then they might be running a lot more often than they should be.I don't remember what all was discussed, typically anything with a motor or heating element that is "stuck" can cause this.A 5 amp load at 120 volts, 24*7, 30 days is 432 kWhr.And "hidden" pumps are a good place to start. Besides the pool, wells, and sewer/septic pumps.And hidden heaters. You might want to recheck that refigerator when it is "not running". A stuck defroster heater will both run up the power to run the heater and cause the compressor to run more to keep it cold.And things like like a heat pump with resistive heaters stuck on. Or an AC running in the winter.I ran into that a couple of years ago. I was doing some repair work on an empty house that the HO was trying to get ready to sell. I had a number of issue from abuse and neglect. Loose ceiling box where the kid had jump up to grab the ceiling fan. Rotted bathroom floor, etc.And the furnace pilot kept going out and one time when I relite it I heard some noise so I check and the AC was running. This was in the middle of the winter and the compressor was covered with 6" of ice.And yes bad underground wiring can cause this. Depending on the details of the fault and the soil conditions it is possible to get a fault that can continous draw several amps, but not enough to trip the breaker. Partially shorted WH elements can do that also.In addition to the amp meter you can use the kWhr meter to monitor the current.Google will get you the formula for figuring the watts from the time that it takes to disk to make on revolution.Pick a time when there is no cooking, clothes washing/drying, hair drying, etc. And turn the thermostat down or up so that the furnace or AC is not running.Then little power should be used except for refigerators (irregularly) and the default loads such as clocks, TV and computers in standby, etc.And monitor the disk. If the load is high then start by killing breakers..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for the additional info/suggestions.Re: kilowatts, do they just multiply amps x volts to get watts of AC power? It seems like the average voltage throughout the sine curve of a cycle should be something like 65% of peak values, making watts only 65% of VA. Or is that 120V really an average and peak voltage during each cycle really something like 185V?
BruceT
While it is left of most statments discussing AC voltages and currents the reporting is actually in RMS (root mean squared). Not peak.If you connect a heating element to a DC voltage and to an AC voltage of the same RMS value then they both produce the same amount of work(heat).Now some volt/amp meters actually measure RMS values. But most of them either measure peak or (rectified) average of the AC and but display the numbers for the equivalent RMS FOR A PURE SINE WAVE.In most cases that it fine. In a some cases where there large number of switching power supplies you can get currents that are pulsed and only an RMS measure meter will give accurate numbers. This is sometimes a problem in large office building with many computers.And there is another factor, Power factorFor AC volts x current gives VA, not watts.Power factor is the time (phase) relation ship between the current and voltage. The actual power being produced is the sumation of V*A for each instant of time.So if the current lags the voltage by 90 degrees when the voltage is at the peak the current is zero and vice versa. So there is no work being done and the Whr meter will read zero. That is zero PF.The POCO don't like that. They have to generate the power and have ti circulating in their lines and losses in the lines and transformers, but never getting paid for it.Thus for commercial users they also monitor PF and a surcharge for it.A PF of 100 means that the voltage and power are in phase and 100% of the VA is doing useful work.Heaters and incandenscent lights have a PF of 100%. Motors less.I don't have any real numbers, but just a motor I am guessing 80-85%.So if you used figure VxA then you will be off somewhat is figuring out what the meter will read. But close enough to find serious problems..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
For non-reactive loads you just multiply volts times amps, if you're using a decent meter. A few digital (and old electronic analog) meters read "peak" voltage, but virtually all reasonably recent (<25 years old) analogs, and all digitals designed for electrical service either measure "true RMS" or a sort of fudged "average", either of which is sufficient for your purposes.A "reactive load", for your purposes, is a large motor. With these there's a "power factor" involved, and if you simply multiply volts times amps you get a number somewhat larger (maybe 10-30%) than the "real" power draw.(RMS means "root mean square", not that it's necessary to understand what that means, other than you need RMS measurements to calculate power accurately.)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
"Someone, I think that it is Fluke, has a meter fairly thin "probe" with a slot in it for measuring current that might work. Instead of using a current transformer, like the clamp on ones, it has a hall effect device and will work on DC also."
This is the one I have. Is it the one you mean? Fluke T5 600
View ImageBruceT
Yes, that is what I was thinking about.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
What other things might be different at her house?
Story time.
A guy bought a new house about two years ago. He and his wife were running about 60-75 bucks a month in electric bill.
They switched from the ailing old boiler to using wood stove and electric instant hot water. This happened to be near the start of this past summer, and at that time they also started using a dehumidifier. They expected to see something like 100-120 bucks on the bill.
it was suddenly running over two hundred! WTF???
Unplugging the humidifier only took fifteen bucks off the bill...
Hmmmm suspecting something wrong int he way the new water heater was wired, they had it checked and it tested out fine. the wheels on the meter were still spinning when the breaker to it was turned off too, but that brought a new idea.
So they went to the panel and shut down EVERYTHING.
Then she stood at the meter while he started turning on circuits one at a time. turned out it was the pump in the well that made the meter start spinning like a try-out for NASCAR.
so they had the pump pulled. I had suspected maybe a fault to ground on the wiring to the pump from chafing on the casing.
What they found was that there was a split in the wall of the supply line coming from the submersible pump up to the pitless fitting. So the pump was runnning 24/7.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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gotta a dehumidifier at the shore house, my bills are about 35 bucks a month, prior to that it was 3 bucks. Dehumidifier runs 2 on 2 off everyday.
my bill runs from $29 to $53 depending on how much welding I,m doing that month. My house is total electric too
What do you pay per KWH? Mine is 30 bucks with us not even at the house, fridge unplugged and no electric heat or hot water heater on. Dehumidifier runs 12 hours out of every day. That is the only electric I'm using.
I'd believe it -- dehumidifiers are pretty expensive to operate.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
depending on the soze, and the rate, 20-40 bucks sounds right for a dehimidifier
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just got the bill in todays mail, 34 bucks. Worth it to keep the mold out of there. Hope to make it more weathertight in the future, maybe won't need it next year.
Go online to their website and read their "rules". Here in Texas, it says that once every so many years, you are intitled to have the meter checked at no charge...
Of course, it's really like "The Fox watching the Hen House", but it's worth a try for her to quote them their own Regs....
Bill
It may not be the meter, but it may be the meter reader. We got bill like that, and it turned out the meter had been wrongly read. The meter reader jokingly showed Ms 'Snort how to read the meter.Next reading, Ms 'Snort went out to supervise the new reader. He says "I get blah" she says "I get dah, how'd you read that?" Our meter has the little clock-like things all lined up. He was reading it backwards!http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
LOL, a dyslexic meter reader!
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I ran the Jacuzzi a couple months back, Mistaken;y left it one for 1 week, our normal bill is $40.00 It was $250.00 for that month due to the pump/ heater running 24/7
Smash it. Call them and tell them you were working on your house and dropped a whatever and they meter got broken, or call in the morning and say kids must have whacked it overnight. The power co. will be there quick, they don't want to lose money on a meter not reading. My neighbor had same problem with ppl not coming to check meter for problem, smashed,called,15 minutes later they were there with new meter.
Get together and compare KWH ... not cost. If you can get say 24 months of consumption on similar houses, that may start telling a story. Convert to Btu/sqft floor/year. Look at her trend over the last year. Also compare your 'similar' houses.
It's the KWH that count ... if everyone is operating just under the rate threshold and she is sneaking just over it ... that might be the difference in her cost.
I've seen defective meters ... or a bad read before. They tend to be rare (bad meters). Bad reads can be common, but don't last but a time or two (depending on the reader). Someone should double check the read for sure. If it is a dial meter, a bad read can be easy.
I hope she isn't on an estimate or an annual average plan ... those are not conducive to keeping in tune w/ reality ... IMO.
"It's the KWH that count ..."Dollars are double the neighbor's bill with the same house model.KWH is something like 180% of neighbor's, putting the last 20% or so of usage into a 24 cent per KWH fee bracket.No new devices in the past two years. Electric stove and oven were out of commission all December (controller gone bad.Edison is sending a guy with a calibration device to check out the meter next week.I'll keep you all posted. I'm sure you're all dying to find out what the answer will be :)BruceT
Also, might hint at a faulty or change in a system ... e.g. heat pump that now uses only electric backup. Did she make other changes to her house? Add windows? Replace broken glass w/ standard double glazing instead of low-e? Cut a shade tree down? Cover the bases and think outside the box ... look for clues to changes made. Maybe she had her heating/cooling system replaced and a dog of a contractor saw an opportunity to get rid of an inefficient model collecting dust on his shelf. Hey, I've seen this kind of stuff happen.
She needs an energy audit !
Edison is sending someone with a test device to determine whether the meter is accurate. After that, it would appear that an audit would be needed to find where the excess juice is going.Old PushMatic combo meter/SE box is too narrow for me to get my amp meter around most wires from the breakers (a pool pump wire was the only one accessable; draws 7.5A on one leg of 240V). Given the unreliability of those old Bulldog PushMatic breakers (ca 1965) she should probably replace the panel anyway.Meanwhile, is there a cheap device to insert between breaker and load-side wire so amps can be measured? I suppose I could just make an omega-shaped length of 10ga wire and put an insulated alligator clip on one end to connect to load wire and then screw the other end to the breaker post.BruceT
There was a strange story in the local paper about some meter problems a nearby town was having. There were a number of meters reading low when tested.
If the error was less than a certain amount, the city would forget about it, if not, they were going to figure out what should have been billed and charge for it.
Kind of a double standard-if it's high, there is never been a bad meter, if it's low, then here's the bill we think it should have been.
Either:
-Meters do malfunction
-This town is lying to cover up a mistake in the office
Or
-A fair number of people have figured out how to tamper with their meters without leaving a trace.