Hey Guys,
If you could choose any material for exterior trim to be painted, what would you pick, redwood, doug fir, spruce, pine, etc.? Window and door trims, corner boards, watertables, etc.. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Hey Guys,
If you could choose any material for exterior trim to be painted, what would you pick, redwood, doug fir, spruce, pine, etc.? Window and door trims, corner boards, watertables, etc.. Thoughts?
Thanks!
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Replies
PVC trim boards. Azek, Celtec, and Koma are a few namebrands. Looks very good and can be tooled even better than wood so installation procedures aren't much different than working with traditional wood. It recieves acrylic latex paint very well in lighter colors. I would hesitate to use it for very dark colored trim accents.
Impervious to rot and insects and is compatible with all housewraps. No special tools required. What's not to like other than the price? Then again, even the purchase price is easily recouped with the long service life of the product.
kid.... if money is no object .. then Azek , or Koma ..... BUT... you have to watch out for excessive expansion..
normally we try to limit our use of Azek to inacessible areas that will be hard to paint... and only if the trim is white and unpainted
if the trim is being painted we use GP PrimeTrim, it loves paint , is more decay resistant than redwood or cedar.. comes in two thicknesses.. etc, etc
oh, and costs a lot less that wood... and a whole lot less than Azek
if there is going to be ground contact.. or very close proximity, we'll use Azek again.. for rot protection..
but 90% of our trim is going to be GP PrimeTrim with SS mailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
GP PrimeTrim, it loves paint , is more decay resistant than redwood or cedar
Really!?! I had no idea. I'm starting to feel a little foolish for springing for the 1/2 mile of Azek I just installed on my house. Whoops.
Do you not have much luck painting PVC trim? Any experiences to offer? We're planning on painting all the trim on our house with a light cream colored acrylic latex. There's a lot of it and 90% of it is PVC. Do you forsee a problem with that? I've had very good luck with painted PVC in the past, but come to think of it... it was pretty much all white.
couple things about Azek & similar.. it is electrostatic.. so it attracts dirt... but it cleans easily..
when you paint Azek, it loses that electrostatic charge, so it stays cleaner.. ( relatively )
( btw.. same thing is true for Azek's cousins.. like Koma )
also.. the nail holes, joints, & dings ... if you look at Azek close up.. they show up .. so the paint hides it..
another thing about Azek... get the mfr's sheet and read about paint..i'm pretty sure they don't need a primer
and yes, we've had really good results with painting Azek... the only problem is that we've had really good results with painted GP PrimeTrim too..
so.. that 's pretty much what i've decided for our SOP... wet areas, or white.. goood candidate for Azek... everything else.. GP PrimeTrim
and i sure would like GPPrimeTrim even more if they brought back the old style , WITHOUT the embossed woodgrain, before , we used to be able to use it fron or back.. now we have to hide the woodgrainMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Azek does call for a latex primer
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
According to Azek's installation spec the LRV of the paint should be 55 or more. I spoke to a company rep and asked what shade of paint would have an LRV factor of 55. Answer was light gray. Anything darker would absorb too much heat and cause the Azek to expand too much.
Have used pre-primed rough-sawn spruce with pretty good results.
unfortunately, the cedar trim around here looks like crap.
No one seems to take the time to back-prime
Nobody here has GP PrimeTrim. The nearest yard stocking it is across the pond in Vermont, and they won't deliver here.
Maybe someone should be carrying it here. The only thing we can get is something called PrimeLock, and it is fingerjointed pine, factory primed. Cost is $15.19 for a 16-foot 1x4.
What are you paying for PrimeTrim?
I've just been reading about AuraLast, which is apparently a rot-proof pine trim put out by Jeldwen. Anyone have any experience with this beast?
Advocate
I haven't seen Azek or GP PrimeTrim out here on the West Coast. I'm assuming Azek is a MDF like product? Is PrimeTrim simply pre-primed pine or DF?
KId,
I'm in the Bay Area and just talked to a yard about Azek today. It's readily available.
They call it "cellular PVC" and say it "can be milled, moulded and shaped to any custom millwork profile."
Advocate
Here's GP's web page describing Prime Trim:http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pname=PrimeTrim%c2%ae+Engineered+Wood+Trim&pid=1072&hierarchy=pcIt's kind of a mess (the webpage that is) but should give you the basic idea.From talking to a rep. my understanding is that it's manufactured from mill waste. I believe it's baked at some point. Pretty rugged stuff and very water resistant. A little awkward to work with (bends easy on the flat plane, not at all on edge though), cuts and drills a little hard (we predrilled holes then nailed with stainless ring shank nails).
Sorry that I am late to reply to this thread,but hey kid,It's cellular PVC.I worked as a ext trim carp using Azek in flippin' Chico! (West Coast)(In other words, it has been here for years...)Study up, Kid. And let us know if any more questions.
#1 clear western red cedar. I like the way it ages.
Redwood and fir have tannins and resins that make it harder for paint to adhere. You want special primers for them. We use Cedar for sills and pine for the rest - although we do use Primetrim in some locations like watertable
but like these guys have said, if price is no object, then the Azek if the ticket
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Rough sawn spruce with an acrylic latex finish.
blue
I'll chime in here for PrimeTrim, which I used on my own house. Was skeptical at first, but the stuff is good. Supposedly you can toss it in a puddle of water, leave it for a few days, pull it back out, and it looks the same (I haven't actually tried that but I know a contractor who did).
Comes factory primed, but to get maximum mileage out of your paint I would hit it with a coat of quality primer before installation (my choice would be BM Moorewhite followed by 2-3 topcoats of Moorglow--absolutely bulletproof even in harsh conditions). Backpriming and priming cut ends is a wise precaution.
James Hardie Products
3/4" thick facia and trim / woodgrain
lap siding / woodgrain / 8" most common
perforated soffit
I do not remodel anymore, but I think they still have a preferred remodelers program, with credits that can be used for tools advertising etc. Check website, sorry, can not think of the link.
Edited 10/25/2005 6:43 pm ET by txlandlord
We have just finished a garden shed with Hardie siding and the supplier told us to buy a $100.00 dollar blade to cut the product because it was sooooooo hard. I bought the siding and experimented with a few blades, and to my horror, this cement product has a paper core. I had no problem cutting it ( with a 60 tooth #### blade)but it was very MDF like and used a mask.
I thought this siding was concrete through out! After priming, it took paint fantastic and looks great, but what about the paper core, if the caulk fails prematurely? This is our first time using Hardie siding. Have you guys have any problems of swelling or product problems??
Yes, there are some installation inconveniences, but I believe the benefits far outweigh the install problems. Our framer uses regular carbide tip blades. He designates blades for Hardie cutting. He will use a blade for every 1500 SF (+ or -)of siding and trim.
The fiber core is to provide structure. Imagine 7/16" thick concrete....no bueno. The warranty is 50 years. Paints great, paint will last longer than most all wood or masonite type products, does not warp, wood look, resist damage from moisture, humidity, salt air, is low maintenance, won't rot, warp or buckle, termite proof, non-combustable, looks good, nothiong like you comapre (MDF or particle board).
Put a well painted piece, exposed to the weather outside of your home for 2 years, and check the results. Try the same test with any other wood, or manufactured trim product. I certainly do not know that other manufactured trim products would not produce similar results. We have not used any others, but if it ain't broke why fix it.
Check http://www.jameshardie.com for other benefits and warranties.
Aside from all this, I am a custom homebuilder. We use James hardie exclusively on all our homes (build cost $350,000.00 and up). We have used it successfully for about 12 years....no real problems or Hardie product related call backs.
Note: $350,000.00 in South Texas will buy 3500 + square feet / three car garage, granite, tile and wood floors, landscape package,etc. Nice home. $350,000.00 build cost will usually appraise for $500,000.00 + depending on location and lot size.
3/4" thick facia and trim / woodgrainI didn't know that they made a 3/4" fascia?Do you get that locally?
Most James Hardie trim is avaliable in 7/16" thickness and 3/4" thickness.
Tract builders and corner cutting custom builders use the 7/16", we always use 3/4".
I would hands down pick a product called koma board, a pvc product from kommerling plastics. this product has a rough finish designed to hold paint, machines well, and does not swell or shrink with changes in humidity(although some with temp). a slow set pvc glue is available to make even the most intricate trim one piece
nota..we used Koma for a couple jobs.. finally tried the Azek and preferred it to the Koma.. has a little finer cell structure and machines just a little betterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I use the koma because of its coarser grain-holds paint better. had problems with azek one time
If you have time, I'm interested in hearing about the problems you had with painting Azek. What kind of paint did you use, and in what color? What time of year? Do you recall?
I've been wondering about long-term issues with Azek re: expansion & contraction causing paint problems.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Advocate
Edited 10/26/2005 5:46 pm ET by Advocate
I don't get it/ Why are so many suggesting all these manufactured products over wood?
I would assume that the products were better, but now I see there is a debate starting about expansion and paintability.
What is so wrong about using good old fasioned wood? Are they giving you this other trim free?
blue
What is so wrong about using good old fasioned wood?
If you find a source for that, let me know. As far as I know, all the "good old fashioned wood" is as good as gone.
If you're asking why use a manufactured wood product, I'll try to shed some light. It's more consistent and predictable. It's also cheaper in many cases than pine which is the old stand by here in the NE for run of the mill exterior trim. FJ trim boards blow IMO. The No1 pine I see is way over priced and really not all that great. Some of the No2 I see is so bad that 2" knots fall out of it. As Mike Smith said, much of it is more rot and decay resistant than cedar.
If you're asking why use a PVC trim board..... well, it won't rot. Bugs won't eat it. If painted according to manufacture's instructions it will hold paint longer and better than wood. It tools wonderfully. Every inch of it is useable stock. Every piece is the same size, has the same physical properties, has the same consistencies.... one piece is identical to the next. Sure it expands, but that can be accounted for during installation. Last time I checked, wood expands and contracts too, right?
Other than that.... no reason. We're just trying to be different.
blue... does the trim you put on get painted or wrapped ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, everything we do gets painted. Theyll use acrylic latex till it gets cold, then switch to oil. Some of the yars ship the trim already primed, but most ship it raw.
Around here rough sawn spruce is the norm. For instance, the house were framing right now is brick down, hardie plank siding up, and all the trim (soffits, corner boards etc) is rough sawn spruce.
I've never seen nor heard of anyone using manufactured trim.
Sombuilders use rough sawn cedar but spruce actually looks better. It has a rougher "sawn look".
It all hold paint well and when it's done it looks great.
blue
jim, you are so passe'...rough-sawn is just '80's..
i oughta know , my house was '85.. all rough-sawn..
wouldn't dream of it now ... but then we used to get lifts of #3 rough cedar 1x10 in the yard... we'd cull the lift and stock up for the season
rough sawn Atlantic Cedar Claps too... until the EPA shut down the logging operation in the swamps...
anyway... GP PrimeTrim costs about half of #2 primed pine, is nore decay resistant than cedar, and loves paint more than wood
Azek, Koma, and the knock-offs from the big box are all pretty good too, but most of the time we only use them if it's NOT going to be paintedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, what are you paying for a GP PrimeTrim 1x4x16?
stinger..i'll look it up tomorrow and post some pricesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
19.56 is my memory
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As a former Azek trim carp,We used to screw off all of our butt and scarf joints.(3" screws, into the studs)No movement so far!
If you back rout the koma it smooths out just as well as azek, and it's usually a lot less , cuz it doesn't have the name recognition. Azek was the first...and I think even Fypon is making one now. I know some of the mill houses in NY were starting to manufacture premade window trim units to standard andersen sizes including crown and/or headers.
Black Millwork in Jersey is doing the Andersen trim thing. I saw it at a seminar last spring.
Looked pretty nice, too.
That's who I saw had it. It was really nice, esp for circle and elliptical tops. Just shoot it up with a 2" trim nail.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Mira-tec exterior trim.
Used it 3 years ago on my Mn. house and the paint looks like I did it this summer.
5/4 stock, pre-primed smooth or grained embossed face.
Hard stuff--little tough on blades--Screwed all my window trim on and Bondoed the holes (bet ya lunch you can't find the screws)
Well my 2 cents--need change?
Mike
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I've started using Mira-tec quite a bit, too. Partly because that's what my yard carries.
But from what I jusr read about the GP PrimeTrim, it seems like its pretty similar to the MiraTec.
same here---that Bennett carries Miratec--I'll look into the GP and see if it is around these parts.Have you found it to wear on your blades.I haven't routed it yet but would hesitate considering how it wore on my carbide blades--or just build in a bit to the job.Had no luck trying to nail it--screws work very well and I fill holes anyway so that part is a wash.The lunch bet is still on........Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I really haven't used MiraTec enough to judge how it wears blades.
It seems to machine about the same as MDF- dusty, but with crisp details. I imagine it would wear blades and bits, but it seems like a good enough trade off to keep using it.
And I'm not taking that bet.
So I was cruising along thinking how great it was going to be to use Azek on our new house, when I ran into a "detail reality" caused by the desire for the trim to be proud of the Andersen window frame. Since the window frame protrudes roughly 1.25" from the wall and the trim only comes in a maximum thickness of 1", I guess I can't get there from here.
In trying to find a manufactured, non-wood trim for my situation, (1.5" thick) I'm kind of hitting a wall.
Any words of wisdom?
Thanks.
Advocate
Hmmmm.... I can get Azek in 5/4 at my local yards. To be fair, I'm not sure it's Azek, could be Koma. But either way, it's PVC trim and it's 5/4. That'll at least get you closer than the 3/4". You could pack out the back of the trim the other 1/4" with PT shim rips or something.
You can always get there from here.
you can weld Azek & Koma into any thickness you wantMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ding, Ding, Ding!
Build out the trim with rips of 1/2" osb.
blue
I appreciate the suggestion, but wouldn't you be putting OSB on the outside of the drainage plane and make it very vulnerable to decay once it got wet?
yes
It's imperative to keep water on the outside of the siding. If you do that, your rot issues are non-existent.
Use a good caulk to do that. Read the directions. Ask Sonny for his cauld document.
blue
KidBuilder:
My choice is clear heart redwood primed with Benjamin Moores oil primer.
Stan