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Its kind of building related since I am a contractor and this is my transportation. My 89 Chevy 3/4 ton x-cab is dying from a hard life. long bed , canopy and lumber rack, all the good stuff. Even though maintained regularly, the engine is on its way (350 cu in). 198k
down the street is a Toyota T-100. x-cab 4wheel drive, 5 speed with 119k on it.Canopy and a light duty rack. now I know it will not haul the loads that i can with the chevy like 20 foot lumber or 40 sheets of 1/2 cdx, nor is the bed as long, but anyone had a good or bad experience with these trucks ? Mileage ?Wear and tear ?
just thinking ?
Probabally end up keeping the chevy anyway and putting in a new block.
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The toyota is a very good truck. It'll take a serious beating. I'm still beating the devil out of my '93 chevy like yours, and it's still taking it. But when it goes, I'm getting a toyota tundra.
*Don't know about the Tundra. But I've owned/still own 6 Toyotas. The Corolla has 315,000 kilometre on it (almost 200,000 miles) Only change the oil when the dipstick shows it's low. Then I add a quart. Replaced ONLY the radiator and the timing belt (and that only because the mileage was so high). Brakes, everything else still original.
*My wife's on her second Toyota Camry wagon. The first one was unreal. With 140,000 miles on it, the oil ALWAYS looked brand new, even when it had 3,000 miles in the engine. I have never seen anything like that. sold it to a friend who loves it after 3 more years.I've got an MR2 turbo I bought new 12 years ago. Love to wind it up on a good curvy road. Still has all the thrills after that much time with it.Friend has a Tundra. It is the best pickup available, by far, in my jaded opinion. He had a T100 and it was great too.
*Haven't seen any T-100 on the news, but the Afganistan sure use the heck out of Toyotas. now those are real "war wagons". I bet they don't get much service work on them either.
*I work at Toyota design (engineering) in Detroit (Ann Arbor, actually), and we do most of the passenger cars now for North America and are hoping to get more involved with the trucks soon (as we grow).Toyota trucks are, by reputation, slow and not as powerful as the competition, but they run pretty much forever, as others have stated.The newer Tundras are getting much more powerful (the V8 is pretty much the same engine as in the Lexus, but with a little less expensive parts, which I think is cool).The biggest complaints about the T100 were always that it was too underpowered, had too low towing / hauling capacity, but that if it meets your needs will run forever and be about the most quiet and comfortable cab that you can find.I drove the latest V8 Tundra last week and felt, for the first time, that here was a Toyota truck with "enough" power. They still don't have the HD packages that the Big 3 offer though.
*I have had a '97 T-100 for the past 100,000 miles. So far, the only repair (other than pads on the front and tires) has been a whine in the rear differential. toyota replaced the entire pig assembly. That was at 37,000 miles. No other repairs since. I tow a 3200lb boat every summer. Have loaded 25 sheets 1/2" OSB and 50 2x6x10, but wouldn't reccomend it. Had one leaf added to the rear springs since the stock springs are definitely too soft, even for towing tongue weights of 200-300 lbs.Power is lacking, but unless you are interested in being the first in the pack, it is acceptable. My son has a new Tundra with the V8 and it is much better.
*A friend of mine has a t100 w/120K on it. He's had the differential go out at 60K and the clutch is needing replacing just now. That's all I know. I find it too small compared to my Dodge 1500. I used to have a small toyota p/u. It was a bit sluggish, but nothing ever broke on it. I sold it at 133K to get the Dodge.Steve
*One of my contractor buddies has a Tundra, he likes it alot but when he has some serious loads to haul he uses his son's Chevy Silverado. I had considered getting a tundra but after hooking a trailer to my friends truck and taking it for a spin I got a new 2001 Chevy instead.
*I had a T-100 until the Toyota dealer ran it for about 15 minutes without oil. After a giant fight / yelling match with the owner of the dealership. (I taped the entire conversation, later giving the tape to my lawyer) Needless to say they bought the car from me. I then bought a Dodge 2500 Cummins diesel. What a difference. There is no other truck. I have hauled my eight yard dump trailer full of wet mud. Must have weighed 15,000-20,000 lbs. with no trouble. I get 17 - 19 mpg during combination driving. Real men drive Dodge Diesels. Seriously, I really like it. Well worth the money.
*I'd owned 3 compact toyotas before the 96 T100 and consider it the worst of them. Most of my complaints are from a quality control standpoint: weather stripping freezing to the frame and then just falling off, clutch assembly broke at 150K (just potmetal compared with the impressive pedal assembly, and the replacement was built just as cheaply as the original and will have to be replaced in another 100K), front end rebuild, head gasket leaked (but fixed free at Toyota).Have to say the engine and drivetrain's been solid, but I think the clutch is going out, and I expect more from Toyotas. It is underpowered with tools, shell and rack onboard, but gets steady mileage (21-23) under those conditions while driving in the Sierras.Also, you should realize they don't come with positraction, so they're not as good in snow as one might think. I wouldn't buy it again, which is probably why they stopped making them.Good luck!Don
*don,You sure must have a lot of influence with Toyota, good thing they are listening to you.
*Don,Did you have the 3.0 L V6? I also had a compact pickup with that engine and the head gaskets were recalled by Toyota.Sorry to hear of your experiences with the T-100. So far all my Toyota experiences (88 Camry (150K miles when totalled) 90 truck (140K) 95 Camry (totaled at 5000 miles), 97 T100 (100K still going) and 98 Cmary (65K still going). I find Toyotas to be far more relaible than any other vehicle I have had, although their truck have improved, they really are not comparable to HD versions put out by the American companies.I have to admit, both Camry's were totaled in head on collisions with much larger vehicles, and there were no injuries to the persons inside. This impresses me , since apparently they are designed to crumple well and protect the driver.
*Way to go Leigh on the 2500! The new generation of them this year with the new Cummins engines will be incredible... now here's a truck:<a href=http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b020702.htmAlso coming from Dodge is the Ram SRT-10 with the Viper engine (500hp, 500ft-lb)... 0-60 in 5 secs!As for toyotas, the only thing I know about them is during the winter the windows completely fog up the minute you start the car. And, since I'm 6'4", I don't find them comfortable. In my area (Wisconsin), people seem partial to the Big 3 for the extra power in the snow..-Andy(Mopar nerd)
*I own a Toyota 4-Runner. Have to agree with Andy that it fogs up badly in the Minnesota cold. And it's quite possibly one of the most gutless vehicles I've ever owned, but I have 270,000 miles on it and it's going strong. I'm starting to use quite a bit of oil, but never thought it would last for this many miles. It's been a great truck so I can't complain. Just wish it had more pulling power. My 6x12 cargo trailer is almost impossible to pull behind it. My buddy also had the T-100 and had the same complaints. They last forever, but really lack horsepower.
*HEY KERRHOW ABOUT BRING BACK THE STATION WAGON.NOT ALL OF LIKE THE SIENNA - TOO BIG AND TOO HIGH UP IN THE AIR, GAS MILEAGE LOWER.HOW ABOUT THE RETURN OF THE CAMRY WAGON????
*Hey guys, Let him buy one if he wants to. I mean if it's made by foreigners and put on a boat it's better. That import duty that they charge is just mean! They should bring those things in free! Now some smarty might tell me that some of the parts are made in the US and they employ Americans selling and fixing them so it's alright! OK fine as I daid let him buy the thing. By the way I have 165,000 miles on my 97 chevy Total of breakdown repairs, $109. 16 (1 rear u-joint and clean the injectors!) I know that I spent a lot, and I'm certain that a Toyota builds theirs better, so maintinance would be much lower.... I'm certain that the Toyota can haul my 16 foot enclosed race car trailer up the rocky mountains faster than the 70 I went but then I'm certain that 19 empty and 12 loaded thru the mountains loaded is poor compared to Toyota! I bet they get much better gas mileage! Heck look at the design of my engine, it dates from way back in 1955 and has pushrods for cripes sake! No trick overhead camshafts, no trick alumimum parts like Toyota just a lump of cast iron that works. The original equipment Goodyears Wranglers only lasted 80,000 miles, I'm certain those Michlins that wore out on my wifes car at 65,000 were just an exception! I'm certain the real reason most people who work with their trucks buy Detriot is because we're all really a lot more stupid than you. Good luck with your selection! By the way, a new engine from Chevy is $2000.00 plus the labor to put it in...
*Frenchy, You may have been a little hard on the boy, but I get your point! The trouble is....most people (especially politicians) don't give a shortsighted damn about this country losing one heavy industry after another. The day is coming when we will be dependent on every other country in the world to manufacture something for us and we will be reduced to a bunch of salesmen and burger flippers! Everybody laughed at Ross Perot a few years back when he predicted just what is unfolding now. I'm not a Perot fan, but he did have a point in that respect....end of rant for now!
*Besides the lack of power the Japanese rate their vehicles differently. My Chevy Silverado is rated to carry 1600 lbs and tow 7000 lbs. I have loaded it down with 2000 lbs and can tow 9000. Toyota rates their trucks at the breaking point. Rated 1500 lbs, add your lunch pail to that and the springs are on the pads.
*The T-100 isn't a bad truck but I think you'll miss the added capacity of your 3/4 ton pretty quickly and I don't believe it will be long for this world if you put it through the workout you gave your Chevy. It is a light duty truck. Match the truck to the job you have to do. If you decide to go with the T-100, make sure it has been well maintained (especially the t-belt). If your Chevy is in good shape other than the motor, it might be worth it to go with a long block by a reputable rebuilder or a Goodwrench engine.
*Looks like someone got to my standard advice before I could......buy American....you'll sleep better! And on top of that....you're talking trucks....which American makes....actually make better! But USED is a whole different animal.....just but the best deal for the money. As long as it's American. Jeff
*The US of A would be in a real pickle if the rest of the world didn't buy the products WE ship to them. Just a thought.I buy the best product I can find for the money. It's called Capitalism...and it works. That's why U.S. big three had to get their sh-t together in the 80's and started making cars that didn't fall apart before 100K. That said, If I was buying a new truck today (I wish) I'd get a domestic. We've just got more experience and track record on work trucks. The Tundra looks damn good, but I'd wait a few years till they have some history behind them. For the record I have a little Nissan now, and that thing is a champ for reliability.(Sorry, gettin off the T100 topic. No experience there...)
*Stray, If you get the best you can for the money, that's OK! It's legal because a whole bunch of men have died to give you the freedom to do just that. ...However, If that's your only thoughts on the subject, it's pretty shallow. What about patroitism? So soon do we forget 9/11? Remember when we were are banding together because someone attacked us? Remember waving the flag? Is that all you did? put an American flag on your Datsun? It is a little more complex then your simple get the best. There are times when we need to help our neighbor, fellow countrymen. If Big business screws up and you can't get a decent vehicle, OK, but realize that you may be the straw that breaks the back. In the 70's Detroit got greedy and failed to invest in the quality of the cars it built, that resulted in the poor cars of the 80's. Mass exodus from American cars convinced them to improve the quality of the trucks to where they are an excellant value. That was then, before NAFTA, before the most recent GATT. Now if they lost that much market share they'd just leave the country.. Like the electronics industry did, like textiles did, like the drug companies are doing etc. If America loses too much of it's finacial strength we stop needing to build homes, few will be able to afford them.. Then you lose your job. That's why simple approaches to complex problems won't work. It's your right to buy what you want, it's also your obligation to consider the ramifacations of your decision. Rant over!
*Jeff,I used to agree with that and bought American until I got a 92 Yukon. In the three years I had it it had the following repairs.3 new radiators1 water pump2 alernatorsboth rear bearings wentfront axle seals 3 rimesfront axle replacedtransfer case yoke and bearingscatalytic converter defectivewindows leaked, rotted out rear carpeting and upholstery (on the dealers lot)Tachometer/speedo pod replaced twice.Oil pressure gauge replaced twice.Harmonic balancer pully bent (on delivery) and belts damaged.Front disc brakes hung up==1 rotor trashedand an number of items I would have to look in the records to find.Yes this was in my opinion, a lemon. Gm did not see it that way, and when I offered to trade it on another, asking for their "help" financially, they offered a token amount. So, you get an occasional bad product. It happens everywhere. What really speaks volumes is how the company chooses to (or not to) take care of their problems. I had bought GM for over 20 years previous to that (Also had Chrysler products). They wont get my business any more.
*(sheepishly)The Tundra and the Sequoia are both built in Indiana, so are, in a way, made in America. There is much evidence that the competition from the new-comers (Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and more recently BMW and Benz, although they are both real small here) has done more to improve the big 3's products AND profitability than it has hurt. I say profit, because the big 3 (as well as many other car companies in Europe) have made HUGE strides to reduce waste from their process, a lot of it learned by watching the newcomers ways.GM and Toyota run the plant together in Fremont, CA and Toyota has always been real open with their methods and processes, it has been up to GM to make use of it or not...Regarding the Camry Wagon, the Highlander is supposed to be the replacement for it. It is very similar to the old wagon in many ways, but is taller. It is also available in 4WD which can be useful.
*Its been interesting reading this follow up to my question, especially Frenchy, wowquestion how come my chevy truck says built in CanadaIll probablally keep my chevy,Its been a good truck. And I like the carry capacity etc, just wish I could get a little bettter mileage out of it.As Americans (by the way I am natvie american so lets not talk about imports like people) we should all be proud of Frenchy , the way he comes across I am sure every tool he uses is American made and every bite of food is grown in this country. Probabally does not wear any imported clothes or shoes, and none of his tvs or radios are imported eitherWay to go man we are all proud of you .keep it up
*Frenchy,You must have the American Makita tools???
*I suppose five years of active duty in the Army and five years of National Guard aren't enough to qualify as doing my patriotic duty...after all I drive a Toyota Tundra (with an American flag on the back). I'm pretty darn sure it is built here in the good old USA, but I'll hang my head in shame for owning an "import" in this time of national crisis...How un-American of me.
*I don't think owning a Japanese brand of vehicle (or any foreign make) means squat. It's about your character, what you believe in and how you treat other people.There are surely more complete buttwipes driving American trucks than any other, by far--and I don't give them any implicit patriotic credit for the fact that they think they've contributed to our economy by doing so.
*Is buying a Dodge truck buying an American truck?Rich Beckman
*One final thought, When you pull up to a job site with a foriegn made product you are in effect saying that Americans aren't as good as foriegners. Not exactly the message you want to send. Japan got it's reputation for quality during the 70's "fuel crises" Japan was better able to provide America with fuel effecient cars and while the reputation of Japanise cars during the 60's and earlier was terrible, by the 70's Japan had learned it's lesson and came to the market with decent, reliable cars that were fuel effecient. During the 70's and 80's Japan kept it's exchange rate with the US dollar very much in it's favor.Using the exchange rate advantage Japan built it's reputation and sold a lot of products to us Taking a huge profit on those using that profit to buy up a lot of America. While I can't blame them for taking advantage of our focus on leveraged buyouts and junk bonds instead of our core business. Nor can I fault the Japaneese for buying up a lot of America's realestate, since they in effect recieved interest free loans from their banks to do so... They no longer have a cheaper labor force, thus the myth of cheap Japanese products is history. They now demand a premium for products made in Japan. Since American work force produces high quality effeciently produced products They have left their troubled shores and now produce using American labor. Revenues that could remain in the US now benefit their home corporations. You might ask why I have this bias against Japaneese products, since I do advocate products that are made in China, Mexico, etc. when a similar product isn't made in the US. The answer is simple. Japan is the most racially biased nation on the face of earth. They discriminate against everyone and every thing that isn't Japaneese. That bias shows up in the way they conduct business. They are brutal in their conduct of business and seldom ever aid countries as generously as the US does evan though they are the #2 economy in the world. For decades they prevented American Products from fairly competing in Japan. We had to force the few concesssions from them. Evan here in America they discriminate. 60 mins. had a piece about it recently at the Honda factory. Yes I have and will buy products from Japan.. when there isn't any other option!
*Frenchy,I would have to argue that the big three are the biggest part of the problem when it comes to putting down American workers. For years they argued that their products were inferior quality and over priced because of 'lazy' American workers v.s. hard working Asians. These crass been counters blamed all of their short cuts on the workforce, they still do. If they had designed their products properly, rather than styling them and hoping fashion would sell, they would have been making much better products for the last 30 years. They still think industrial design is a marketing task not an engineering task.The Japanese have done us all a favour. They designed proper vehicles, with proper production engineering, then the came here and used our supposedly lazy workers to build them. These products are a hundred times better than the big three can spit out and a testament to the quality work North American autoworkers can do. I have a Honda built outside of Toronto that I would never trade for any of the junk GM, Ford and DM are building around here. On top of it all, the big three are closing or trimming production in their plants up here for 'profit reasons' while Honda and Toyota are expanding state of the art work environments and hiring big time. True, these manufacturers are here due to trade laws and government interference, the same reasons they are also building in the US. If the 'land of the free' was true to it's capitalist ideals, instead of so protectionist, perhaps these manufacturers would not be here.On the other hand, if those boys in Detroit could put their short sighted greed aside and build a decent product, they would not have allowed the competition to grow to such a large threat. Here is another thing to think about; look at the big three's quality levels in Europe. They are consistently at the bottom. Even Mercedes has now slipped from it's once hallowed quality position. Who says the Chrysler half of the merger had no influence in Germany?
*When Ronald Reagen was running for the Presidency ,he too stood up for "free market capitalism" by saying that a California dock worker had just as much right to a job as a mid-west auto assembler.Do some of you realize how many auto part manufacturers provide jobs for Americans? I've worked thousands of hours at the stamping/assembly plant complex in Lordstown,Ohio ,and it's impressive to see the acres of racks of parts, tagged with all the places from around the country where they were produced.I've also talked to journeyman who've worked at the Honda plant in Marysville,Ohio, and there's a HELL of a lot more foreign tags on the parts bins.And where do the profits go? To Japan and Korea or here in the U.S.?And as to the big three Canadian built products,whose standard of living would you like to support, a North American's or a Third world Asian's?Those Malaysian seat cover suppliers certainly do appreciate your business.Do American corporations deserve our un-wavering loyalty? No,they'd make everything in Sri Lanka if they could get away with it,and when you rationalize buying foreign products you make it easier for them to do just that.We have to buy their cars or they won't buy our drilling equipment and induction furnaces? Oh what B.S....I realize it's getting harder to shop American,but you CAN still buy American made work boots , jackets, and hand tools.One more thing before you flame away; don't be suprised when they start re-building on the World Trade Center site and the structural steel comes from the Ukraine and China, because our free trade Presidents have stood by and watched illegal steel dumping decimate the domestic steel industry.Support your country's economy by supporting its companies and workers.
*Yeah - but :10 or so years ago the head of Toyota made about 400k, the head of GM mega millions - 10 or 50, I can not remember.There is a lot of greed at the top in big US companies.I think the Japanese ratio of CEO pay to worker pay was 18/1 while in US its like 235/1.US CEOs do not care about the long term success of their compnies - they want only big bucks for themselves TODAY.
*Back in '88, I bought a Chevy S-10 because I thought that American car makers had finally gotten their act together and were producing quality vehicles. Wrong as it turned out, at least in my one instance. By 1999 when I started researching minivans to replace my wifes old car, the internet scoop and Consumer Reports tests and reader surveys said that all of the American minivans were pretty crummy. And then I had a look at the pictures of American versus Japanese minivans after crash tests. The Chevy Venture was something I would not have wanted my family to be after a 40 mile per hour crash! But at least you could order a new one with a VCR and TV in it (as if Americans aren't getting enough TV at home?). Bottom line? When Americans start building quality automobiles instead of gas-sucking monsters that fall apart rapidly, I'll buy then, but until then, I'll pay the premium to get a car that's much less likely to leave me and my family stranded out in the desert. By the way, those of you who are driving 30 year old cars with "Buy American" bumper stickers on them should be informed that you aren't really helping the American economy all that much by buying a car every 30 years...
*Rich,my brand new Dakota was built in Warren Michigan with 89% US/Canadian parts. It doesn't get much more American than that...My gripe with Japanese vehicles is much less philosophical than that discussed here... I find them to be, on the whole, underpowered, uncomfortable, and poorly designed. I agree that they have a great reputation for reliability, and a Subaru once allowed my father to walk away from an accident that in many other vehicles would have killed him. But especially in the world of trucks, it's all about performance. If you don't need to haul big payloads, who cares if the Toyota doesn't have the power of a chevy? But there is no question that American trucks offer more power.BTW regarding reliability, the Cummins deisel engine is performance tested to last a minimum of 350,000 miles before replacement. They do these tests in conditions varying from subzero to very hot, and in a much more severe manner than human drivers do. I'd take 350,000 miles between trucks any day!
*Well Frenchy,You can go on hating an ethinic group of people if you like. Sad, but you have the right if you want to do that... I'm not so sure that all those men that died for our rights (as you eloquently pointed out) would appreciate your hatred though.My point was that capitalsim works to make us stronger (ie in the example of the '80's auto market where we started improving to keep pace). Buying an inferior product simply because "we" made it doesn't help us in the long run.I don't think your protectionist idea of circling the wagons and not buying anything imported really flies in todays world. The USA has a LOT to gain in opening new markets aroung the world. The payoff may not be tomorrow, or next year, or even 10 yrs from now. But it will (I believe) insure our prosperity for the next century). There are rocks in this road though; and your point about the steel dumping is a good one. We need to keep a close eye on trade, and take action to correct such impropriety. That's a far cry from closing our doors entirely though.
*very good points raised here, and while not strictly about a FHB topic this issue sure is one close to all of our hearts (American jobs, foriegn products, what is best for ourselves, our country and our companies in the short and the long term).Working for a Japanese company has given all of us here (where I work) a reason to think long and hard about these things. I think that others(the above posts in this discussion) have covered much of what I would say about it, but I do have two things to add: - regarding the Japanese "owning much of American real estate". They did buy a lot of stuff in the 80s, and they paid WAY over market price for much of what they purchased. Much of it has been sold back since then because the Japan economy has been in the dumper since around '91. When they sold the stuff they often took huge losses. I remember an article in the Wall Street Journal about this, and one of the examples they cited was Rockefeller Center. The Japanese bought it for crazy money, then sold it comparitively cheap after some years and who got all that green? Many American corporations made out quite well in those deals. - About the local factories, "owned by foriegn companies siphoning off profits away from our shores": An auto company has to spend most of its profit on development of future vehicles (except for when the Big 3 is dolling out some of those super salaries their top execs get even when times are 'tough' for the line workers). This development money is spent on research and engineering of the new products. So, since Honda and Toyota do much of this in America now, they have been putting much of the profit made on NA sales right back in to our economy (it is hard to imagine, until you've seen it, the quantity of suppliers, and their workers, involved in the making of a car, and most of them are located in NA too).So, at least in the case of those two companies, I think that a rather small amount of the profit is actually being sent back to the home office.A real side benefit of this localization of the supplier base is the education and improvement of our local work force. Many times we have found that the improvements in our supplier's quality have also improved the parts that they sell to the other car companies! (sometimes we joke about the University of Toyota, because of this effect) It is kind of inspiring to be a part of this going on, and what I tend to think of at the real LONG term effect of 'them' being here and me working for them.
*Kerr,I agree this is getting a bit off topic, but I think there is some relevance to the FHB philosophy. My biggest peeve with the big three, after bad design, is their contempt for their workers. In the end, that shows up in the product, just like it does in a home built by disgruntled trades.In the past in my day job, I have had many opportunities to visit auto plants and parts suppliers. It is amazing what you see on the shop floor. My company supplied machine vision and inspection systems. Normally our customers used these systems to improve workflow and quality. We spent a lot of time working with plant engineers and staff managers to come up with processes to enhance quality control and productivity. One glaring thing that has disturbed me is the difference in attitude domestic v.s. offshore companies have towards their workers and the workers of OEM suppliers. The suppliers to domestic companies would turn to us to idiot proof the production process. I have had engineers at OEM suppliers tell me they actually have to prove to their big three customers that workers had no way of inadvertently affecting the quality of product. We were even asked to create an alarm for one company to go off if a worker walked away from their station. Apparently they could not be trusted to stand there and do their jobs. These guys are downright insulting to the human intelligence, that is why they do not get the benefit of human intelligence in their products.Offshore companies are completely reversed from this. We get calls to come in and help their workers with better tools. They insist their OEMs use the best tools empower the workers. The automation is a power tool, the brains are in the craftsman. I suspect that one reason unions are more prevalent in the domestic owned/managed shops is that these companies don't have enough respect for their workers to negotiate with them man-on-man. The offshore companies tend to see their employees with some respect and don't need a 'marriage councillor' to maintain a relationship.By the way Andy, I agree with the Cummins Diesel point. Too bad they can't find a good chassis to put them in though. Also remember, Toyota builds industrial vehicles for every market in the world, it is just a matter of time before they realise we haul drywall over here.So to turn this around, what do you guys think will happen when (or if) factory built housing becomes the norm? Will General Housing get its butt wiped by Fuji Shelter Industries?
*Stray, I don't see how you could ever complete school with that kind of comprehension. No place did I say that I hated the Japanese. What was clearly said it that the Japanese are racially bigoted. That because of that, their business dealings are not at the level we in America accept. No place in there did I infer that the Japanese were inferior to any other people. I've found the Japanese people to be friendly and decent people. Americans have a hard time living in a society that is so rigidly structured and there are several other charcteristics which Americans tend to differ in, but I will not ever feel superior to any group which is what hate is based on... I did not say that I refused to buy foriegn products, I and most others will buy from local first and nearby next. To me long term, it is far more important to minimize the foolish use of fuel than to buy my "jama's from Hong Kong, 'cause they are a few bucks cheaper than the guy who makes them in The US and winds up paying taxes here. While I firmly believe in fair and free trade, Japan doesn't and has only been forced to slightly open the trade barriers under duress! You did make a valid point regarding the need to balance loyalty and self interest. It is absolutely true that Detroit dropped the ball regarding quality, that caused the loss of market share. (it was also affected by the dollar/yen exchange rate which Japan held artificially low and they are paying for now) While I tend to place a very high value on loyalty I certainly can understand those who feel betrayed by American big business..
*Jon, I understand that you feel Americans can't build a good car, fair enough. is there anything you feel Americans can do well? Or do you feel it must come on a boat and pay import duty for it to be well made. Yes Americans can build junk, they also fine things. I owned a 1985 S-10 Blazer that went 135,000 before the original equipment tires need replacement. I got close to 200,000 miles on it before we gave it to my nephew who needed his first car.. It was a fine vehicle but then I took care of it...
*kerr, Well said, while I understand and can evan agree with much of what you said, That street goes both ways, remember that the concept of Mfg. quality was taught by an American to the Japanese. As I said in my statement, America WAS focused on leveraged buyouts and Junk bonds. If America does have a weakness it comes from inherited wealth and the next generations focus on the quick buck..
*Rein, Fortunetly what you say while it is true some of the time there are a few enlightened companies. One example is right here in St. Paul. We have a Ford truck plant right in the heart of a residential area. Yet everytime Ford wants to close a plant this one avoids the chopping block. Why? The plant has some respect for it's workers. that's reflected in the quality of trucks they build.. As a result they stay in business...
*That import "duty" is courtesy of the American Government, not the Japanese...Use of overhead cams and alum castings date back to at least the early 40's. I agree, though that full size pickups are still done best by the big 3.
*Frenchy, On a trip I made to Japan (while employed by Ford), it took me 30 seconds to figure out why we can't sell American cars over there. Our cars are ALL way bigger than 90% of anything bought over there. The smallest cars sold here (Ford Festiva, Aspire, GEO Sprint) are the overwhelming volume of cars sold there. Pickup trucks are largely an American thing, as work vehicles in Japan tend to be flatbed trucks with low, fold-down sides. The same goes for Europe. They use vans and flat bed work vehicles. No pick-up trucks.Have you noticed that all of the "entry" level vehicles sold in this country are largely becoming Kia's and Hyundai's? Ford, GM, and Chrysler have given up the entry level market; NO PROFIT. Ford killed the Contour shortly after releasing it. NO PROFIT. The big three have not figured out how to build inexpensive cars. I agree that the high salaries and medical benefits paid out cost huge sums. This is the overhead that inflates the price of cars. Because they have given up the entry level car market, they will also lose the "move-up" car market. When a young person buys their first new car, it will be a Kia or Hyundai. These are Japanese-esque. Their ideal move-up vehicle will not be a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge. It will be of the Japanese style, thus Honda, Toyota. I live in Detroit. I buy American, as I work in the auto industry. However, I am not blind to the future of our local industry if major philosophies do not change within our American OEMs. Why build cars? The profit margin is 4%, at best. You can do better in banking. As a matter of fact, Ford's credit arm routinely kicked the ass of Ford's in-house component production. Result....Ford spun off Visteon. Same at GM. Delphi is now a free entity. Now these entities are closing American plants at a rapid clip, and shifting the jobs to $0.50/hour Mexico. If I owned a business, and was under the gun of the short-sighted stock market, I would do the exact same thing. It makes sense. Cut the labor and benefit costs, while selling at the same prices has to equate to higher profits. I'll continue to make money, as long as people have the philosophy of buying the "best deal". NAFTA! Interesting topic!--TJM
*TJM Goodpost, well thought out. Part of the reason that American size vehicles don't do well in Japan also has to do with the smaller stature of the Japanese people. When I was in Japan, It was fun to walk down a street and be a full head taller than most...and I'm only 5'9" I understand the difficulty that the average Japanese would have in climbing into the cab of a 3/4 ton 4x4! let alone drive it on the "wrong" side of the street in those crowded and busy roads. Yet their average vehicle would be considered unsafe here in America, due to it's tiny size and low top speed. I wonder too what Americans would think of the Japanese requirement to purchase new vehicles every 5 years because of their strict safety and smog requirements. Can you imagine what Americans would do in typical Japanese traffic? We have road rage now, under that relentless traffic, we'd all go mad! Actually, with international stock markets, American capital is busy buying stock in companies like Kia, Hyundai, etc. So Ford cares little (and GM) that they can't make a profit on entry level cars. That in part is why the quality of our trucks has improved as much as it has. Over 50% of all new vehicles sold are truck based. If you remove the rental fleets and government vehicles from the auto market there almost isn't an auto market of US made cars... Thus the only profit comes from trucks.. Realizing our unique position they've invested in trucks and it shows!
*Robert, First understand the "we" are the government. Remember that part about "we the people?" We (Americans) put an import duty on products coming into this country to prevent Dumping. That is the practice of selling products overseas for less than the cost of manufacturing to keep your own people working. Essentually exporting your unemployment. Import duty also acts to keep unfair exchange rate practices in check. According to GATT import duty is not supposed to be a revenue source, rather a means to level the playing field. Over head cams dates way earlier than the 40's, The french are generally credited with the first use of overhead cams 4 valves per cylinder engines, in 1916. The use of Aluminim castings for cylinder heads dates from 1903.
*Frenchy,Some good points in your recent posts.BTW, I got through school just fine. Thanks for the concern though ;)i "What was clearly said is that the Japanese are racially bigoted"I guess my point was that your comment itself is bigoted. You're painting every Japanese person with the same brush. It's just like someone else saying "The American people are racially bigoted." Doesn't feel good, does it? Some of us are bigoted, some of us are not. Not very helpful to anyone when we make these kinds of generalities.
*Frenchie,So far, it is an interesting discussion. Having lived in Detroit all my life, I have been exposed to the Big 3 and all their actions, both large and small. When huge import taxes were imposed, yes it was said to counteract "dumping", but it was also to lessen competition. If an overseas company can produce a product better than Detroi, the first cry is to retaliate. Whether this is in the form of boycott, taxation, denouncing on various issues really doesn't matter. What is missing in the equation , is Detroits ability to be introspective. They never view themselves critically, but go trudging along whining in an immature fashon. In my opinion,it is not the American worker, but the infrastructure of the large companies that is holding them back. They would rather "crush" an opponent than learn something from them. Import tarifs were introduced to make the Japanees product uncompetative pricewise. When that did not seem to work, they issue of worker employment became the next battle whine. When the Japanees companies set up plants here (responding to these demands) then the issue became where the final dollar was going. It just never ends.I was on a flight back to the Detroit area this fall when I sat next to an exec. for Ford. We got to talking of the Bridgestone situation and generally about the direction of the business. He was in total denial of Ford having ANY culpability in the tire situation, despite many experts stating low inflation pressures increase rates of tire failure. I was not there to argue with him, but rather, patiently listened. He also could not understand why the Camry sold so well. He said he doesn't see anything so great about their styling, plain dashboards, etc, that their products were more stylish, flashy, etc. Again, I made no comment , mainly because I was intrigued how this person (to me representing the American car companies thought process) could never focus on issues why people like the Camry. It is reliable, simple, and functional. Detroit simply doesn't "get it". People are very busy in todays world. They do not want a vehicle they have to take in often for repairs, they want reliability over flash.The American consumer is more sophisticated than that and wants more than promises and "glitz".Case in pont. On my last Big Three car I had a warranty repair to be made. An appointment was set to bring it in. I arrived at the appointed time (monday morning) to find three lines of cars (about 10-12 cars in each line) waiting to bring their vehicles in. Moving up slowly, after about 45 minutes, someone came out and offered each driver a cup of cofee. Stating I had an appointment to drop the vehicle off (the paperwork was already completed previous) and all I wanted to do was physically leave the vehicle and keys in their posession, they replied I could not do that , but must "wait my turn" with the others without an appointment. The appointment meant nothing.Compare to my Toyota dealer. Set up appointment--drop vehicle off at designated time, they drive your home or to nearest mall, give you a beeper. When the beeper rings, you call them and they send someone to pick you up.Where would you go for service?
*Stan, Somehow I wound up defending Detroit, A position that I hate! Yes some of those greedy, selfish, fools, need a little compassion once in a while but you are right when you point out their shortcomings. The problem is that to get anywhere in Corporate world you must not only succeed, you must succeed in an approved fashion. IBM's blue suit is a kinda classic example.. Your dealer's treatment of you has little to do with Detriot and everything to do with that independant dealer. My dealer not only doesn't have lines, they will pick you up and drop you off if you ask them. Of course in the past 15 years or so most of my experiance has been for normal stuff like oil changes etc. 165,000 miles on my chevy and the total of breakdown expenses has been $111.00 In the past 20 years I've never had a breakdown that's left me parked beside the road! (except running out of gas and other such stupid acts on my part) That's been typical of the last 4 vehicles I've owned...My memory is kinda fuzzy but I think the worst vehicle I've ever owned has been a Vega that cost me over $300.00 in non-warrantee repair before I sold it with about 65,000 miles on it for about what I paid for it! ( during the first fuel crises) Import duties have a long history, in fact that was the major source of income for the government prior to the civil war..
*Detroit is all about them getting your money NOW to boost up todays stock prices so the execs can retire on big bucks. the japanese want you for a long term customer and grind away at slowly increasing market share 1 or 2 per cent a year. In the 70s when the price of japanese cars went up about $600 in one month due to currency swings, did GM leave the price of the Chevette low (now there was a good car!/ Vega and Corvair too) and increase market share? NO NO they immediately raised the price of the Chevette to match the Corollas etc.Ever had a GM parts man tell you as he sells you a part thats been out for 3 years "this one will fail too, they have not fixed them yet"?????
*Frenchie,You have obviously had good luck with your American vehicles and dealer network. I disagree in that the dealership and how it runs, has everything to do with the mother company. They are liscensed throught the large corporation, given training (the corporate method for running the dealership) and are monitored. Presumably, if they are monitored and are allowed to stay in business, they have gotten the nod of approval from above. How they operate is a reflection on the parent company. I've gotten to know a service manager at a foreign dealership very well, (he's also been a SM at American dealerships) and he will state things are ENTIRELY different. If a negative reply comes in from a customer (surveys sent out afte all service ), he will be innundated by a group of people from the corporate offices. They will leave no stone unturned, and basically make the dealerships life very uncomfortable. In America , we assume a certain percentage of people being unhappy is OK. and so the story goes.Regarding getting ahead (for companies and their infrastructure), taking new approaches has always been resisted in the post-industrial revolution American large company. Status quo is comfortable. When they do try something new , like the team approach of assembly, they cannot quite commit to giving anyone else real control, like the workers, and as a result, doom the process. We have entered an era in the past 5 years or so, where copying having regular metings/committees (as done in the workforce in Japan) has become the vogue. Now we having meetings and committees for the most inane reasons (because everyone else has them), and most committees have no real power to affect anything--it is still in the hands of a few. certainly, one is not suprised when these meetings are viewed as a waste of time and productivity drops. Large companies are good at going through the motions,maintaining old methods, rather than REALLY addressing problems. Isn't that becoming "the American way" (sadly)Sorry for the rant. Too much caffeine today.
*Take a look at the executives that run American car companies; most of them come from either the marketing or accounting ranks. Now take a look at the executives running the Japanese, Korean or German car companies; most, if not all of them, came up from the engineering ranks of the company. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, an engineer might have a better idea about how to make a good car than say - an accountant or a salesman. Something to contemplate before you make your next vehicle purchase. Did some accounting executive say "look how much money we can save if we use this cheaper inferior bolt - the customer will never know" or did an engineering executive say "lets spend the money on the better bolt - true, it's 10% more expensive, but it's 60% better"
*Thor, Interestingly enough, a survey of suppliers to all OEMs was conducted by Ward's Auto World, or Automotive Industries magazine (I can't recall which). The question was regarding what percentage of a component purchase was based on the technology/quality and what percentage was based purely on price. The purchase decision by American OEMs was based 80% on price, 20% on technology/quality. For the Japanese and Europeans, it was at least 50/50. Suppliers are more likely to sell their latest and greatest (and best) to the foreign OEMs because they desire this stuff. The US companies are incredibly price driven, to the point of telling the suppliers exactly what they will pay for a component, and then requiring a 5% price reduction for each year of the contract (efficiency charge). Have the cars come down in price, each of the last few years? This is what suppliers deal with, when selling to American OEMs. The Japanese are much more about the business relationship, and tend to not "put it to us" as bad. However, the Japanese customers demand way more attention than do the US companies. Perhaps this results in better products. Thanks for you input! --TJM
*My hope is that by exposing more and more American people to these more efficient, and more logical practices that Toyota uses every day (and that many of you have mentioned above) that we will see a gradual shift in 'typical Big 3 thinking' by osmosis or something. There is so much that is great and is wonderful about this country that we live in, but our management practices have sure gotten screwed up sometimes. Some examples of what I see here (Toyota) every day, that I would LOVE to see more of in the Big 3 (or anywhere!): - decisions are made by the lowest level person involved, and the higher up levels job is to guide them, ratify those decisions and provide the means to carry out those decisions. - all upper management is engineering based, and ALL have worked their way up thru the ranks so they have strong, and deep, understanding of the ramifications of each decision made. - decisions are made based on facts, never by personality or power, as a result it is very easy to gain concensus from all parties to proceed. - decisions are all based on one key concept: what does the customer want? If it is ten times harder for me (the engineer) but somehow better for the customer then the choice is clear, I do it. - you can not hide a bad decision. It is impossible to do in such a lean organization. It is also impossible to hide a poor performing worker. We are 'all in this together' so we work with them to improve. - we suceed together and we fail together. There is no room to place blame, all energy is directed at solving a problem (it is a wonderful feeling of support - when you get that sinking feeling that you've just found a great big mistake and everyone pitches in to solve it with you).We are constantly working with our local suppliers to try and get them to be doing all of these things too (boy, it can be an uphill battle sometimes). I figure that the more people exposed to this, and who learn to appreciate it and to want it, then the more chance there is that we can improve all of our companies, and that will improve all of our lives (not just the ones who work for them, but the customers too).
*And now, even off topic of the tangent...Frenchie, you probably only think that you are 5'9". Recently, for the first time since high school, (when I was 5'8 5/8" tall - the exact average for all men being inducted into the Army at that time) only to find out that I had been beaten down by life by over an inch. (I mean, I knew that people shrank as they got old, but ME, I mean, I'm not old - am I?) So I guess my message is that if you want to keep thinking you're at a certain height, don't measure yourself ever again... And a related factoid - the Government agency that is concerned with such things reportedly maintains that the average height of American's has not increased since 1960 and is about 5'9" for men and 5'4" for women. (If so, how come all these kids around here are suddenly about half a foot taller than I am???)
*Frenchy,I was thinking more of a production application of OHC engines (Dusenburg). The French may have used this type of cylinder head, but did NOT invent it!
*The main reason Japanese auto makers can build the smaller, cheaper cars more profitably is that they have figured out how to manufacture vehicles more efficiently. While the disparity with the Big 3 in this area has narrowed significantly in the last ten years, the points Kerr mentions are offshoots of Toyota's initial development of Just-In-Time manufacturing methods back in the '80s.The JIT process revolutionized auto making, and allows the company to build vehicles by carrying much less inventory while moving the vehicles much more efficiently through the line. One of the big principles of JIT (besides eliminating waste) is that you have to keep costs down wherever possible. Toyota was notorious for squeezing its suppliers to deliver parts cheaper and cheaper. While I'm sure many decisions were based in engineering first, the cost accountants were definitely next in line.JIT is the reason the japanese auto makers are where they are today. The Big 3 have largely caught up but are still mired in the beaurocratic tradition of American business, and have many years of making crappy cars to answer for in consumer's minds. As I've said, I don't care for Japanese vehicles, but I appreciate the advancements their makers have brought to the industry. Made my new Dakota that much nicer for me!Andy
*Andy,I take some exception to the JIT method reducing waste. It just transfers it to others. True, manufacturers used to keep big inventories in warehouses. Now they push that inventory onto the highways. JIT has effectively taken inventory out of the warehouse and put it on the back of a tractor-trailer. On the roads around south-western Ontario (and presumably other manufacturing areas), we how have an overflow of wasteful and increasingly dangerous trucks. The old warehousing approach provided time to use more efficient rail cars to move between suppliers. JIT needs trucks loaded and moving. The end result is that the public infrastructure (i.e. taxes) subsidise the warehousing. We repair the roads from wear and tear. We clean up the accidents from all of the inexperienced drivers hired to keep up with soaring demand. We live with the additional pollution. We live with the traffic congestion. The manufacturers get their JIT 'efficiencies'!And are these really efficiencies or just a way for the bean counters to show lower inventory levels to the stock market?In Japan, the JIT model uses manufacturing zones or communities to shorten the distance between suppliers. Their geographic density and infrastructure planning gives them much more rational control over this process. Here we sprawl out over large areas. Every municipality or county competing to attract plants to their jurisdiction, even if it is many miles from the customer. While it is nice to spread the jobs around to many communities, the JIT model does not overlay as efficiently in our countries.
*Henry Ford way back when used JIT.Read some books on his life.
*since I started this, just a little updateall I wanted was to ask half heartedly about a truckwow what a can of worms this turned intoby the ay, the T-100 is sold, and I am still driving my chevy truck, and yes if I need a truck, the big ones are the way to gobut get this I am getting a volvo wagon to run zaruond in when I do not need my truck,got it the other night,how american is thatwell klick and klack say it is the best thing to get, those commieswatch out sweeds here it comes, your nextoh thats right ford owns volvoand speaking of big three...... who owns dodge??????
*Frenchy didn't you feel guilty gettin that much for that Vega? How high up the sides was the rust on that puppy?
*I wonder how the GM product manager for the VEGA felt. You would think that they could have figured out before they made it that it would rust like crazy, especially around the windshield. They really scre*** the consumer on that car!!All in the name of corporate profit.
*And that isn't mentioning the Aluminum cylinder walls either.
*RE - BTW regarding reliability, the Cummins deisel engine is performance tested to last a minimum of 350,000 miles beforereplacement. They do these tests in conditions varying from subzero to very hot, and in a much more severe manner thanhuman drivers do. I'd take 350,000 miles between trucks any day! ----------If this applies to the entire engine assembly (not just the block and head), that is a very impressive claim.At 350,000 miles if only the engine is left remaining with everything else falling apart, there may be others who can make this claim.(1980s era Toyota being one of them - high mileage engine with everything else rusted out.)Alan
*Lonecat, It was a year old and GM repainted it just before I sold it. It looked really good as I waved goodby. Actually I thought I was given him a good deal. It was less than they were asking for other Vega's at the time. The "cheap" datsuns and toyota's had a $500 delivery and prep fee added to them and they sold at list. People were panicked, convinced that the long lines would last forever etc. I had bought it before the "fuel crisis" and the dealer sold it at $300.00 below cost just to move it. Plus the factory gave a $200 bonus check. It was a loaded Vega GT that I bought for $1790.00 plus I registered it in Minnesota so I didn't have to pay sales tax! I really enjoyed the Vega!
*i Why build cars? that's the point - the 3 are primarially finance companies, that is where the profit lies - GMAC - Ford - they'd get out of manufacturing if they could figure out how, and it sure looks like they are trying -
*i Corvair toolets take it easy on the Corvair - this was engineering done in the 1950's, the first inovative thing detroit offered after WW2 and they were unfairly crucified for it - I blame that weasel Nader for a fair part of the 70's US auto debacle - one of a confluence of factors that resulted in the companies having only 'recycled' 1950's technology wrapped in easily decomposed sheet metal of the style of the year as Japan leap-frogged into the next generation of vehicles -
*Everbody has their points about the multinational nature of corporations,American management philosophy,engineering shortfalls,etc...The simple point I wanted to make is we should try to support fellow American workers with our purchasing dollars.If you buy Red Wing work boots you help somebody in Minnesota earn a paycheck,if you buy Texas Steers you help someone in China.And when a Continental executive buys jetliners from Airbus instead of Boeing,the people of Seattle get hurt.So,until we can all earn a living designing Web pages for each other, we ought to think more about "protecting" American manufacturing jobs.
*...."we ought to think more about "protecting" American manufacturing jobs. ...."That is a commendable idea, in theory. the reality is that the auto companies have been wanting "protection" for a long, long while. Protecting for the very short term, to overcome some unforseen situation is one thing, but a continual practice of doing this leads to companies becoming less independent, have stagnated thinking, and a greater dependency. It is much like the alcoholic and their spouse. If the spouse covers , the situation only worsens. This enabling helps no one but the competition.
*So....to have things go full circle, anybody own a 4-cylinder T-100 with a 5-speed transmission and A/C ?For just grunting around town with only occasional interstate travel (no more then 100 miles round trip), it seems like a good truck with more capacity compared to the smaller Toyota pickups.Yes, there would be no power, but for around a small town with no beltway, that may not be a factor.Tundras are out of the question at this point.Just want a fairly plain but larger Toyota pickup with a regular cab.Alan
*Alan, Just buy whatever you want. It's a free country and all you have to worry about is your self. Don't ask our opinion because most of those who post here don't seem to like Toyota, minor exceptions aside.
*Point well taken, Frenchy.Very diplomatic in the way you put it.I appreciate that.Alan(I do notice trucks that take a beating and do real work around in our area are GM or Fords. Most of the Dodge Rams are always clean and waxed.)
*Rein,I meant to illustrate how JIT reduces waste from the perspective of the manufacturer, and its investors. The goal as you say is to minimize inventory on hand (along with associated carrying costs), and mfg lead times while maximizing efficiency and flexibility. I agree this works very well in Japan due to geographic concerns. I guess my point was just to illustrate that this method was a large part of why japanese vehicles kicked our butts for many years in quality and price. Personally, I agree with you that it doesn't make as much sense here, especially if we imagine what happens when (not if) deisel goes to $4 a gallon (or higher).I'm a union guy and, to the best of my abilities, refuse to buy anything made in China, or shop at Wal-Mart (the scourge of America). I try to do what I can, but business reality dictates that we must begin to evolve our workforce to respond to globalization, if this country is to have a prosperous middle class for the forseeable future. Seems like not a week goes by I don't hear about another plant closing with more folks out of jobs. As crappy as that is, it's reality, and I can't blame business people for making business decisions. Unfortunately, it often serves to make the rich richer at the expense of everyone else.I promise my next post will be truck-related...-Andy
*Alan,The only claim I've seen about the Cummins' durability is an average life-to-overhaul of 350,000 miles. Here's a cool article about these new engines:2003 Dodge 2500/3500 Featuring Redisigned Cummins Deisel-Andy
*hey, Nick Pitz.... come on over to business and talk about Vectorworks.. leave these guys here to argue about trucks..
*
Its kind of building related since I am a contractor and this is my transportation. My 89 Chevy 3/4 ton x-cab is dying from a hard life. long bed , canopy and lumber rack, all the good stuff. Even though maintained regularly, the engine is on its way (350 cu in). 198k
down the street is a Toyota T-100. x-cab 4wheel drive, 5 speed with 119k on it.Canopy and a light duty rack. now I know it will not haul the loads that i can with the chevy like 20 foot lumber or 40 sheets of 1/2 cdx, nor is the bed as long, but anyone had a good or bad experience with these trucks ? Mileage ?Wear and tear ?
just thinking ?
Probabally end up keeping the chevy anyway and putting in a new block.