Replies

1. 
   HeavyDuty | Feb 02, 2003 02:32am | #1

   The switch next to the side door, I would think it is for the exterior light above the side door. As for the 3 way switches, they must be at different entry/exit points for the kitchen and they would have to control a light fixture in between. Although they could be wired to an outlet box but it is not common practice. Is there any evidence of a retro fit lighting arrangement? In that case the 3 way could be an abandoned circuit.

   Tom

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 12:20am | #5

   Tom,

   There ARE porch lights above the two doors, but they're controlled by other switches (in the same set of ganged boxes as the mystery switches). These are not retrofits - the previous owner built the house. Unfortunately I've lost touch with him.

   --Arlo

2. 
   kesac | Feb 02, 2003 04:26am | #2

   Go to Home Depot.  They have signal generators and signal tracers as a kit for 80 bucks or so.  Look on Ebay for Fox and Hound.  I got one that was surplus from Canadian phone Co. for $20 or so.

   It takes no brains to operate.  If you are not an Electrician, go with the one from Home Depot, as it has protection, in case you hook up to a live circuit.  Don't do that, please.

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 07:22am | #7

   Help me out here... when you use these signal generators to feed a signal into one end of a wire, can you have to tap into that same conductor at some other spot to detect the signal, or can you detect the signal through the insulation and through neighboring drywall (which is what I think I need to do, because I don't know the location of the load that is being switched.)

1. 
   kesac | Feb 03, 2003 07:52am | #9

   When the signal is shot into one end of the wire, it sort of generates a standing wave, and becomes a poor antennae.  The signal tracer is just sort of a radio reciever that will pick up those waves, and give an audible tone, that will vary in volume, as you get closer the source.  Most signal generators put out a variable tone, so you will bea ble to tell your "English Siren" type of tone from the constant 60 cycle in the rest of your wires.

   You will be able to tell thru drywall, sometimes not thru conduit, but you can go to every suspect junction box and see if your oohgah noise appears there.

   If you have a load on the wire, that will sometimes suck up the signal, and make it more difficult.

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 08:39pm | #13

   Exellent, - this is what I was looking for - as close to a 'magic wand' as I could wish for.

   --arlo

   Edited 2/3/2003 12:45:29 PM ET by Arlo

3. 
   CPopejoy | Feb 02, 2003 04:45am | #3

   Arlo,

   Yes, there is such a magic wand.  It's called a toner and probe (tone generator and inductive pickup probe).  Telephone and alarm installers use 'em all the time to find one pair of wires in a whole mess of wires.

   Progressive Industries makes good ones, in several models.  Greenlee makes one that some Home Depots stock.  An electronics parts store will usually have a couple of different models/types.  A good set costs about $100.  The line has to be dead (and clear of shorts) for it to work.  The toner generates a radio-frequency beeping signal and the probe picks it up.  The better ones work through drywall quite well. 

   You get what you pay for.  There's a new Gardner-Bender model where the toner acts as a storage sheath for the probe.  Nifty packaging, but as a wire tracer, it's junk.  A guy on one of my jobs spent a couple of very frustrating hours trying to trace some romex runs.  I lent him my Progressive 77HP and he had it done in no time. 

   If the line is shorted, you need a more sophisticated set up, at about $200.

   With practice, you can pinpoint the location of a wire in a wall.  I had one job where the wire to the doorbell button was buried behind the siding (T-111).  I squirted tone onto the wire from the transformer end, and using the probe, found and marked the location where the tone was at its loudest.  Drilled a 5/8" hole, reached in with long nose, and pulled the wire right out!  This was good, as all the beeping had attracted attention and I had an audience of doubters looking on.

   Good luck--

   Cliff

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 07:34am | #8

   Thank you, CAP. I asked the local Home Depot folks about this same question and they were uninformed. With your additional information I should be able to educate them.

   --arlo

1. 
   abnorm | Feb 03, 2003 07:36pm | #12

   My brother-in-law just moved into a brand new spec house in Florida.........I was amazed at the 6 switches ganged together at all the doors and hallways............I broke out the building plans (builder provided) and it seems this guy builds in every possible "future" use..........The ceiling-center locations are wired for fan and lights.......but additional lights are already installed thru-out ...........other switches operate the standard split-recepticles around the room...............Some switch panels had more "future" than "existing"..........Great-rooms dictate 3-way switches to operate lights as you pass thru............

   I suggested "casio/brother" labels (great on the circuit breaker box) ......to identify (temporarily)...............the switches and the device they operated  on their switch plates..............Shot down by the decorating squad......."We don't need no stinking labels"................Flip away............

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 08:45pm | #14

   I suspect that the builder and previous occupant did just this - put in extra "capacity" for some unspecified future use. I'm going to open up the ceiling lights and the wall plugs to look for red wires where I don't expect them - a good tip.

   --Arlo

4. 
   4Lorn1 | Feb 02, 2003 05:04am | #4

   A few warm up questions first. Just to get the juices flowing.

   Taking the cover plate off the box containing the mystery switch are the circuits run in romex?

   Do either of the switches have a red wire connected to them?

1. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 12:51am | #6

   To clarify, in the kitchen there are two 3-way switches; each one has three screws, and, yes, there is a red wire on each switch. At the other end of the house is a second mystery circuit, but it's controlled by a regular switch with two screws.

   Any insights you might have would be appreciated.

   --Arlo

5. 
   4Lorn1 | Feb 03, 2003 09:17am | #10

   My question didn't get me any dramatic answers. Sometimes the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't.

   What I suspect is happening. First the switch by the exterior door: It originally controlled a switched receptacle somewhere in the same room. Commonly, but not always, near the door. It is intended to provide a light controlled at the entrance.

   What commonly happens is the receptacle goes bad and is replaced by someone who either didn't connect the switched leg, the power lead controlled by the switch, or connected both the switched and unswitched conductors without removing the interconnect tab on the side of the receptacle.

   If there is a red lead connected to the mystery switch you should be able to, by just removing the plates and looking in with a flashlight, find a receptacle box with a, only one, red wire present. If you find a box with two red wires that are connected together without connecting to the receptacle its not the right box. Try the next one in line.

   Once you find the right box it should be a simple matter of making sure the tab on the hot side of the receptacle is removed and the red wire, controlled by the switch connected to the lower plug. The upper one remains connected to the, constant hot, black wire. The neutral side remains common to top and bottom so the brass interconnect tab remains whole on that side.

   The kitchen circuit is more of a poser. I suspect that the central light was originally designed to be switches from more than two locations and that someone has replaced a switch incorrectly. So now instead of having the light controlled from, you say there are two three way switches so more than two, three or more, locations it is now only controlled from one.

   If you could give me a count on how many switches are in the kitchen, the number and color of the wires in each box and how they are connected presently I could try walking you through trouble shooting.

   These are pretty common problems for houses that have been worked on by untrained people. I've seen variations on this theme many times. You might consider calling an electrician. If you do the work yourself be careful. A circuit tracer might help but in this case I wouldn't go out and buy one unless you just like collecting tools. I use one occasionally but for this sort of thing I use a brute force approach.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Feb 03, 2003 06:29pm | #11

   Or it might be like my living room. I had it wire with all of the recptacles split with one side controlled by a switch. I latter decided that I did not need any and reconfigured all of them. But in my case the switch still controlls some downlights.

2. 
   ArloGueswith | Feb 03, 2003 08:50pm | #15

   Thanks for sharing this approach with me. I'm going to give it a try before trying to scrounge one of those signal generators.

   What I basically overlooked was that if there's a red wire coming into one box, there should be a red wire going into another box.... This will take me a while, but I've been living with this puzzle for three plus years already.

   Thanks again,

   --arlo