What trade groups do you guys belong to locally or nationally? (NAHB, NARI etc) and do you find them worth the time and money to participate in?
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I'm in the Nahb in a local detroit area association. I haven't participated enough, but that is my loss.
I've attended one seminar regarding the lien process and picked up two frame jobs while meeting a builder there.
I should go more. I should do a lot of things.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I just joined the local Home Builder's Association here in Eugene. I guess I'm also now a member on the state and national levels too.
One of the main reasons I joined was networking. The president is a contractor who's got a new development going in on a hillside. 70 lots and every single one of them is going to need a deck! Some folks who belong to the HBA only deal with other contractors who are HBA members too. I'll pony up the dough if I can get 70 decks out of it! (That, and the fact that the hillside where they'll go is 3 minutes from home...what with gas prices shooting outta sight, I gotta do what I can to get jobs close to home!)
It also gives your business more street cred, more stability in the eyes of your potential clients.
If I land one job because I'm a member of the HBA, it paid for the membership dues.
Mac
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I started attending the local building association (Grant County Builders Association)(GCBA) meetings a few months ago.
Right when I started going, a merger was in the works between two local groups, neither of which had many members.
I forget what the dues were at that time, but my first reaction was "that's not enough". Now the dues are $500 plus. I still haven't paid because I don't have it, but they let me come to the meetings as long as I pay $25 to cover my meal and give them a bit of profit!!!
I have zero networking skills. Generally, if you put me in a room full of people I don't know, an hour later I am still in a room full of people I don't know. So it is taking some time for me to make contacts. Still, after several months, there are a lot of people that I now know.
I have tried to be active. I helped out at the GCBA booth at the local high schools vocational expo. I got volunteered to design a logo. I am on the committee that is supposed to work on ideas for recruiting new members (which hasn't met yet).
Most recently the local Community School for the Arts is looking to expand into a vacant storefront adjacent to their current digs and is offering to produce and run a commercial for the GCBA in exchange for the materials and work. So, so far the only work "membership" has brought me is the probable donation of my labor to this project!
When the city council had the public hearing on the doubling of contractor registration fees, the President of the GCBA spoke in favor of it (on the extremely likely possibility that the fee was going to double no matter what, so might as well support it and ask for something in return (a list of registered contractors periodically published in the newspaper).
There were plenty of contractors there (none members of GCBA) who spoke against it. I spoke in favor of it so the President wouldn't feel too lonely up there.
I have suggested that the group have window decals made (once the logo is done) to put in the vehicles and they love that idea.
I plan to push for an ad campaign to promote quality, code compliant construction by GCBA members.
So it is all in slow motion kind of, but I find it hard to believe that this isn't going to be financially worthwhile in the not too distant future.
And once I come up with the dues, that makes me a member of the Indiana Homebuilders and the National Homebuilders.
In the meantime, the meetings are usually a lot of fun.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Paul,
I've been VERY frustrated starting the exact same topic here a loooong time ago.
No response or very little.
Same with queries about health insurance. i guess everyone is riding momma's coatails for the health insurance.
My interest in the associations is for the low cost insurance rate that they advertise, next would be the being qualified in the eyes of your clients thing, then educational opportunities and networking.
With all the discussion that goes on here in this folder, I can't believe that we can't get a decent one going on this topic.
How about it gang?? No one belong// Why not. Who does and why, what your experience with belonging??
Thought about it but still not sold?? Tell us your story??
C'mon, give it up.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I'm willing to share my story Eric!
I originally joined the Lapper builders assoc because I had to to take advantage of a very significant cost savings in my Workers comp package. I think I dropped 7 percentage points which is huge. The 300 assoc fee was a nuisance compared to the savings.
I attended one meeting in two years there.
I now moved out of Lapeer and joined another. I'm not sure why we are still members because we don't take advantage of the networking opportunities and they tossed us out of the Worker comp program when we had a guy go on a back injury comp claim. We've never attended a general meeting there, but I have taken some seminars. I think I mentioned that I did two rough frames for a builder that I met there but we won't do anymore for him. We're not compatible, he wants to pay low and expect a high level of service. I don't mind giving high levels of service for high pay, but I won't work for the rates he's used to getting. We will do fill in work for him again, because we can get our rate.
I do love attending Real Estate Meetings though!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thanks Blue,
A couple of the 'local' associations around here get you membership into one of the national trade associations.
Was it like that for you??
And re: the WC thing, well that bites, drop me as soon as I file a claim DOH!
Maybe experiences like yours are the reason why it seems like a lot of people don't belong.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric, I'm not complaining about being dropped. I was tickled to save the many thousands of dollars that I did each year. When they dropped me, I expected it. Now I'm back to where I was.
I have no bitter feelings toward the association. I'm just glad that I'm not in the high risk pool!
I'm sure I'll be there soon.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I've been a mamber of the local HBA for about 2 years now. With the local membership, you also get state and national memberships. (NAHB)
I avoided it for a number of years, because it seemed primarily like just a marketing thing for new home builders.
My primary reason for joining was the same as Rich Beckman's, to increase my people skills.
I also wanted the exposure to other builders. But I learned that the HBA is not just for builders. There are sub-contractors, real estate people, bankers, accountants, suppliers, etc. at all the meetings. There were no leads for work the first year. This second year I have gotten one lead for sure, and have been told that my name has been passed on to other people.
My secondary reason was the educational oppurtunities. There isn't any organized education at the local level. But if you are open while talking with people, you can learn quite a bit.
The state HBA does run some code update courses throughout the year in different parts of the state. They also have run the national courses for Certified Aging In Place, here in the state.
As far as being more qualified in the eyes of clients, I haven't observed that at all. It seems most people associate the HBA with new homes, and I am a remodeler.
I have no experience with the insurance program, though after absorbing and helping to pay off student loans, I wouldn't say I am "riding momma's coattails". I prefer to think of it as "return on investment". : )
Another reason I support the local and state HBA is their effort to remove a local inspector who was throwing his weight around. It was successful.
One of the educational and networking opportunities available is our state Remodelers Council. ( it is part of the NAHB) Lately the meetings have been very educational, almost like sitting down with a live version of the BT business folder. At any one meeting there are 10 to 25 in attendence. I definately feel like the small fish in the big pond with this group, but they are all friendly, and willing to share what works for them.
What networking at the local and state level has done for me, is to boost my confidence. Hearing about the war stories from other remodelers, and things they have overcome, keeps my own business challenges in perspective.
The yes or no vote is really up to you. If you just want to be a member in name only, for the status, then it is not worth it. If you want to improve, and are willing to get involved then it is worth it.
Bowz
Well,
Now we're getting somewhere............
I hope Paul is reading these posts, he's the one that started the thread.
From the state our industry is in, consumer complaint wise, I've always thought it would be awesome to once and for all have some type of state or national certification.
Many local licenses do little or nothing to actually qualify a body to build or remodel peoples homes. How sad.
Anyone else have something to share??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I agree. The State of California, where I live, is supposed to require 4 years journeyman experience to qualify for a license. So theortetically, that's 8 years experience. But there are so many ways around it that it seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. Some are "grandfathered" in through a family member, some form a paperwork "partnership" in order to use someone else's license, some hire a "qualifying individual", and I'm sure some just outright lie. So I was intrigued by NARI's certification program, which sounded pretty rigorous, and which isn't attainable via a variety of "backdoor" methods. But no one in my community seems to be involved with NARI, and no one on this board seems to have any experience with their certification program. But I'm not ruling it out. Jeff Buck and Sunny Lykos and some others have recommended selling yourself, rather than groveling for the low bid, as means of getting work. I think this is the route I want for myself, and I'm thinking NARI's certification might be a nice selling point.
I'm a watchin' Eric ;)
"I'm a watchin' Eric"Paul,I think you're supposed to be watching the thread instead of watching Eric.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy now...
From the state our industry is in, consumer complaint wise, I've always thought it would be awesome to once and for all have some type of state or national certification.
I don't see that as a good thing. National certification or not, the schmucks and boneheads will still find a way to do business. I think required certifications and licensing would eventually become meaningless.
I took the three Certified Aging In Place classes last year, (at $225 each) and recently sent in all the paperwork to be officially dubbed "CAPS"
The three classes were as follows:
1. Introduction to business management: A good overview of how a larger operation should work, but somewhat limited in specifics for a small operation, like myself. Time ran short on the class, so the finacial stuff was breezed through. I would have prefered to have a little more time on that, and less on the structure of the company. (CEO, salesman, secretary, production manager, etc). I came away with a better appreciation of how far I have to go yet businesswise!!
2. Working with and marketing to older adults: I have used this information a number of times in the last year.
3. Home modifications: As I recall this was probably the most marginal of the classes. It went into grab bar locations, comfort height toilets, clearance thresholds, client assessments, etc.
Some of the reasons I chose the CAPS classes have to do with work I have done in the past, and some interesting statistics.
80% of the wealth in this country is held by those over 45 years old
According to AARP the majority of older adults would prefer to stay in their own homes vs moving to a condo or other facility.
The state HBA brought the classes here, rather than having to travel for them.
I've noticed the trend that the contractors that older adults normally have been using are retired, dead, or out of the business.
I find them to be more open to buying on value and not price. You can do a lot of work to keep someone in their house, for the cost of a few months in a nursing home. ( and most of them are keenly aware of that cost)
So, yeah, it is a marketing tool. It is an opportunity to explain that I continue to learn about what I do, and that if I didn't, I wouldn't have 20 years experience, I would have 1 years experience repeated 20 times.
Bowz
Well try this on then.................
My wife is a licensed massage therapist.
She had to pass a test adminisered by the NYS Board of Regents.
You need knowledge to pass such an exam.
No knowledge, no pass, no license.
I would support a well thought out program in a heart beat.
CEU's reguired as well.
That oughtta filter out all the dirt bags with a dime bag in their pocket.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Edited 4/21/2005 7:24 am ET by Eric Paulson
a well thought out program
There-in lies problem #1. Who is to define what is a well thought out program?
That oughtta filter out all the dirt bags with a dime bag in their pocket.
In theory yes. But in reality I don't think it will work that well. In Wisconsin a contractor must have a "Financial Responsibility Certification" card (Insurance) in order to pull a building permit.
Problem is that there is a lot of unpermitted work, and even permitted jobs can be done by anyone if the HO pulls the permit. I don't know if there is even a penalty for a person who works without the certification card, but I know it is something that the state will lean on if a HO files a complaint with the state against a legitimate contractor.
No knowledge, no pass, no license.
But how does that stop her from massaging the neighbors sore neck for a few bucks on the side, then the neighbors friend, and the friend's friend? And pretty soon she has a massage therapy business w/o being licensed, and without any problem if nobody complains.
Then suddenly someone complains, and you get a state agency to step in, do some posturing and grandstanding, pass some more laws, do some photo ops, and then move on to the next crisis. Those legitimately in the business are now saddled with another stack of regulations to contend with.
I like the idea when compared to how electricians and plumbers have their act together, and use licensing to their financial advantage. But with the ease of entry into the carpentry/contracting business, I just don't see a strong enough effort ever being made to raise a contrctors license to the level of plumber or electrician.
I would rather not contend with another stack of regulations, and instead rely on things I can control, (marketing, sales, reputation, production) in order to boost revenues. Maybe that is not the easiest way, but I see it as the only logical way in my remianing working life.
Bowz
You and Boss both make valid points.
So, I'm an idealist...........shoot me!
And, I just got done reading the local papers annual springtime;" lets all watch out for those horrible unlicensed contractors" story before I wrote my post last nite.
I'm all for keeping the gov't out of my pockets and my business.
But your logic has a few flaws.
By not qualifying contractors and thus having them hold valid licenses, the consumer is left to fend for himself. Think about how many other professional people are required to take and pass exams to hold a license in their pofession.
Now we can say that the consumer should be responsible enough to hire a good contractor and I agree. However, based on the rate of consumer complaints against contractors, there is something wrong. It is obvious to many, that it is a good and easy way to scam folks out of their hard earned money. And there are others, who possibly through no ill will, are just not capable (lack of knowledge) of delivering a well designed and built product to the consumer.
Testing also levels the field. Why should a guy who wakes up one morning after collecting shopping carts for the past year and suddenly decides that he is a contractor enjoy the same status as you or I?
Other professions have had someone design an exam that tests their knowledge, that they willingly take in order to become licensed in their profession. They don't cry about it or suggest that it's the heavy hand of Uncle Sam. They study and take the exam.
All I'm saying is that I would be willing to do the same or like thing that plumbers and electricians do in order to sift out some of the chaffe and gain a little better view of the profession by the public.
It gets boring after a while wearing that scarlet letter.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
So, I'm an idealist...........shoot me!
BANG! :-)
I don't disagree with your points. I just see them through a different set of glasses.
Testing also levels the field. Why should a guy who wakes up one morning after collecting shopping carts for the past year and suddenly decides that he is a contractor enjoy the same status as you or I?
I am not interested in a level playing field, I want it to tip in my direction. I want to tip it by things that I do voluntarily, like education, trade associations, and excellent service. By your logic, I would see consumers assuming that everyone who is tested has the same competance. I don't want to be part of the pack. My goal is to differentiate myself in enough good ways, that I am the logical choice.
It gets boring after a while wearing that scarlet letter.
Ha Ha. Reminds me of a comic I saw after reading "The Scarlet Letter" in high school. A comic of a puritan woman with A+ on her dress, and a smug look on her face. So I think we are aiming for the same thing. Not just "Contractor", but "Contractor +"
Bowz
"...I've always thought it would be awesome to once and for all have some type of state or national certification."
I don't think I agree.
For instance - In all 50 states, you have to have a drivers license to (legally) drive a car. But does that REALLY keep unlicensed drivers off the road? Does it REALLY make people better drivers?
To me, it's more of an expensive boondoggle that does very little. I suspect national licensing of contractors would be the same.
If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments.
Boss,
I get your point however...............there are WAY fewer contractors than drivers out there, and it would be much easier to check up on who is doing what.
After getting their knuckles smashed a few times, let the real punishments begin.
If you carry your logic all the way through, then why license drivers at all, let every one drive, blind, children, who cares, they're gonna do it anyway!!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I belong to NARI, at the national level only. That's $150 a year. If somebody searches for a contractor through their site, I'm one of about three who come up for this locale. In a year's membership, I received five leads. Three converted into decent jobs, so I can certainly justify remaining a member.
However, you will be cold-called by idiots trying to sell you services from time to time.
If you don't mind Buddha,
What other level of memberships are there and what extra or diminished benefits are realized?
Have they insurance or other discounts available that you have or can take advantage of?
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
If you live in an area where there's a local chapter, you have to join that, which costs significantly more than a national memberhship.I've looked at NARI's deal on health insurance, but at first glance their PPO doesn't seem to be respresented where I live. They have stuff like car rental discounts avaiolable, but that's about as useful for me as discounts on executive jet charters.
I'm not a builder, but companies I have worked for have typically belonged to truss-related trade organizations. To me, those associations serve specific functions best. Like fighting political issues at the city, state, or national level. You need organization and funds to do that. Like if something ridiculous came before congress - Maybe they were going to require that all studs in houses be painted green. (Just to make up a stupid reason) You can't organize and fund something like the NAHB in short order. Everything needs to be in place and ready to go in order to fight something like that. .As far as meetings and conferences - As someone alread mentioned, I learn more from networking with other manufacturers than anything else. Kinda like I learn a lot from networking here on BT.
Of all the things you wear, your expression is the most important
You can't organize and fund something like the NAHB in short order. Everything needs to be in place and ready to go in order to fight something like that.
That's a very good point Boss.
Here in Michigan, the NAHB was able to table a new energy bill that would have drastically changed the way we build. It's in the court system now, but no one builder would have been able to afford to fight it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I looked into NARI briefly, and am still considering it, because of the certification program. Do you have any experience with their certification, or comments?
The standard gig for a trade association is, position yourself as the certifying entity, then charge for it. It's a revenue generation technique that most trade associations in all area of business use. In my opinion, the person who would hire me because I possessed a trade association's certification -- or wouldn't hire me because I didn't -- is probably ignorant in a lot of other areas, and not somebody with whom I'd do business.Certifications are good for business -- if you run the trade association and collect the money for the certifications.
Not too different from what the State of California has done with the licensing requirements - basically a cash cow for the state. As far as certification, though, I still think it shows a measure of commitment on some level. Its like a logo or a vehicle sign - not likely someone's going to hire you because you have it, or not hire you because you don't - but it can show a certain level of professionalism. Especially in a town with lots of fly-by-night "handyman" types, or "licensed" contractors (no number, so their license is probably a city business license, which anyone can get for about 30 bucks).