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Where will the carpenters of the future come from?I’m from the Cleveland OH area and we still have a pretty strong union so we have an established apprentice program. I know that many areas are having a qualified labor shortage. I’ve been teaching carpentry to high school students here for about 8 years.
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FredL is pretty much right on the money, although his response was somewhat tongue in cheek. To further elaborate on what Fred said and to answer keith's question not only will the houses be coming from Mex., but the labor too.
The Hispanic ethnicity is the fastest growing group in America's population. Within 15 years, 1 in 3 construction workers will be of that background (Bureau of Labor Statistics) I can believe in the veracity of such figures after seeing what is happening in CA and the 11 western.
*RichWhere I'm from seems that the ratio is 3 to 1 in favor of the "Mexican" connection work force. Jack
*It seems that no one wants to do this any more. I do it because that's what I do and I'm fairly good at it. With all the people I hire, it's getting harder to find younger people to pass the trade on to.50 years from now?Who knows.Maybe houses built out of country may not be too far off base.Ed. Williams
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Fred, The large influx of hipanics is an area of concern, but i dont think that the manufactured hom industry can do the custom homes i'm seeing in this area. 20 years ago I was framing 4/12 gable ranches, now every thing is 12/12 cut up hip/valley octagon ect.. There are a lot of decent wall bangers out there but we need more guys who don't call a framing sguare "the big L-thing"
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Kieth, keep up the good work with the high school students!
I've had the pleasure/honor of having served on the local and regional vocational training advisory boards in our area. Non-academic folks like myself, representing a variety of employment fields, help the vocational staff develop class offerings and cirricula which are relavant to the local employment market. I have even monitored classes and reviewed the tools and materials used by the students.
Vocational training today gan be geared to mesh with advanced training at the junior college level, giving high school students an chance to explore a vocational field and an opportunity to advance into training for, say, an electrician's or plumber's license.
In some areas, vocational students are actually building spec homes. Sure, they're competing with the regular builders, but they have the builders' support since a skilled labor pool is being developed.
In the old days, "trade school" was often the place for misfits, and troublemakers. Today, secondary vocational training programs attract bright, motivated students. The old stigma is still there, however, and many parents want their kids to take "college prep" courses. Society is slow to change, but economic forces may help in making vocational programs more appealing.
Builders and contractors, we can all make a contribution to our professions by supporting vocational training programs at the local level. We can volunteer to serve in an advisory capacity, we can hire vo-tech co-op students, and we can speak up at school board hearings in support of vocational programs. On two occasions, I was the ONLY person to sepak in behalf of vocational programs at school board budget hearings, and I'm very proud to say that in each instance, my presentation made a difference. You can make a difference, too. Don't just gripe about the quality labor shortages in the construction field ... do something about it!
(Golly, I wish I'd taken those shop classes in high school, Kieth ... it took me a long time to learn in the field what you might have taught me in the classroom.)
Off my soapbox, Steve
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If you need help in your area, contact Triangle Tech based in Pgh.,with schools in Erie and DuBois PA.This is where I went to learn that my Dad did know what he was talking about!(and a few things I've showed him about 20th century construction!)If the student actually pays attention the possibility to learn is there.Their placement office would love the call.Scott Dixon is in charge of placement in DuBois and could tell you which students would consider a move.Long live the STEELERS...BROWNS SUCK...GREAT to have you BACK!!!
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I believe in the forces of supply and demand. As fewer young people get exposed to the trades through summer jobs or weekend work, fewer will realize how much they like the work. At some point, the demand will be greater than the supply and wages will go up. That will draw young people into the trades for temporary work, just as the computer industry does now.
From these "temporary" workers, some percentage will find their calling, and they will be the craftsmen of tomorrow. Whether they are Hispanics, African Americans, Chinese, or Hefalumps makes no difference. There will always be some people who find fulfillment in the trades, and they will stay with it long enough to become what you call craftsmen. - jb
*Yeah , I tend to agree . And in the meantime maybe we " seasoned veterans " can make a little more money .
*Actually building houses out of the country is not a new idea.I remember reading that in colonial times this was actually a viable industry.In williamsburg(I believe) post and beam houses were framed ,dis-assembled,and then shipped to Barbadoes.(Or was it the Bahamas?)Anyhow, this idea has been done before.Training new workers for the future has been a concern of mine for some time.As long as society continues to place a stigma on a job requiring one to work with his hands and get a little dirty ,we are gonna have a hard time attracting bright individuals.As long as parents continue to teach their children that it is better to be a wage slave locked up in a cubicle all day(with clean hands)than to learn a trade,start their own businesses and stand on their own two feet...FREE and INDEPENDENT ,we will have problems recruiting new workers.Good Luck,Stephen
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Is there a problem with the "hispanic" component of our workforce that I'm not aware of?
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Fred,
The only problem I've seen so far is communication. So much of what we do is so conceptual that it takes all the communication skills we have to work out problems. My spanish is limited, and some of the hispanic carpenters have limited use of the english language. It makes it difficult for both parties.
I don't see as it is my place to learn fluent carpentry spanish. If I moved to Spain or Mexico, I would expect to have to learn the language of the country to survive. I get a sense that the hispanic workers expect us to speak spanish. That's not fair to us. If you want to live and work in the USA, you had better learn the language.
My opinion,
Ed. Williams
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The term "carpenter" is such a vague definition nowadays that you have to be careful in what context you use it. If you are referring to a wood and homebuilding CRAFTSMAN, then the proffesion is all but gone already, and has been for many years. The problem with most union carpenters is that they, for the most part, work entirely in the commercial field. The problem with most "residential" carpenters is the industry is so specialised now. This means that a carpenter is just a framer, cribber, or sider, and does not have a well rounded construction experience. To become a craftsman carpenter takes much more than a commitment to a apprenticeship program, though this is a great start, it also takes many job changes. There will always be a select few who will have the drive to become craftsman, but as to the question, "where will the carpenters come from", for the most part they are already gone.
Toland
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Does anyone have any information about how to start a training progrom in my area we are in desparate need. even my training was done by learning as you work and reading everything I could get my hands on. Also I have talked to some friends a bout reviving the old guild idea for training and certification. A union wont fly in this part of the country. Any ideas? thanks.
*Rick - I remember the term "guild". But I'm not sure what one is, or how it would work. Can you explain what you mean? Thanks - jb
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It seems to me that pride in the accomplishment of ones work,and wanting to learn a trade where you can take a measure of yourself in what you have created , knowing it will standfor decades to come and be enjoyed long after your gone,has been replaced at times by tunnel vision focused on the dollar.
If only those having the talent but undecided would look at the opportunities afforded to them in the trades.You set your own limits as to how far you go,and what the future may hold.Granted,construction is no easy road but it's better than working towards retirement then getting severed just prior. I have been in construction for 32 yrs.,21 in residential const.,and I hope your wrong about the craftmans future.But it will be up to those of us who employ & teach these youth to show them there is a future in the trades.I have faith this will happen.
Yes , I am running for Pres. and I have two votes,but I owe my daughter a snow cone for hers!
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I don't really see the problem here. I'm young, fairly bright, and have an interest in becoming a real carpenter. I guess, however that I am an exception to the rule. I have to agree with Jim Blodgett on the law of supply and demand however. Yes, there will be more of a move towards pre-fab housing components, but hasn't that been happening for a good number of years? Look at the public infatuation with carpentry and shows like This Old House. When it comes right down to it, someone has to do the work and the majority will differ to craftsmen and women. I think that we ( as carpenters, builders, designers) have to change our own personal attitudes about what we do. Take pride in stating what you do for a living, who the hell want's to sit in a cubicle all day. If we instill that pride in the young people around us maybe it will catch on. All things move in cycles, and the truly patient are content to push on doing what they love. I think that many of us would enjoy teaching others, so look into community enrichment teaching opportunities or school demonstrations. That's what I plan to do when I feel that I have enough to share, and I'll show through example that carpentry is as worthwhile and fulfilling as any other occupation. Take it to the local scale and don't hoard your knowledge...
*Rick, in many areas of the country, the community college has become the primary vehicle for what is termed "vocational training" (as if an engineering school doesn't prepare people for the vocation of being an engineer...). Many community colleges have a "construction technology" or similar program. However, such programs are high cost when compared to psych and soc classes and most colleges are only willing to pay for a few such programs and those that exist admit only a few students each year. Community colleges can be influenced by their community, however, and if you have a community college in your area and can get enough people to pressure the college board of trustees, you might get some money redirected to the type of program that is needed, particularly if local contractors are willing to pitch in and help. A few community colleges have developed work-study or co-op programs where students can do a certain number of months of classroom work and then go out into a local company to actually learn something. Interested companies are usually needed to provide appropriate jobs/learning opportunities for these students. (Sometimes the wages in these students get is subsidized by federal or state grants, so you might actually get your money's worth in taking on such a student.) Even if you don't have a community college in your area, it is often possible to get a more distant college to provide some type of program if the money and support can be found. Given the explosion of educational programs on the Internet, it may be that the classroom part of the training is already (or will be) available through a distance learning program (although I have not yet run accross such training efforts.) If you are really interested, you could probably get something started. I would suggest you first assess what is available in your community and if it is not adequate, organize to put some pressure on the local school board and community college board of trustees. Undoubtedly, you will get cries of lack of funds, however, at many community colleges there are often obsolete programs hanging around that could be eliminated to free up some funds if the pressure is brought to bear.
*Here's hoping you;re blessed with success and satisfaction in your career.Sincerely, Steve
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Let me go to the flip side of the coin. I'm in need of learning a "trade" in about 9 months when I retire from the military. I've been building cabinets a furniture part time for about 5 years and I've taken on some small remodeling jobs. However I have never been "trained" or worked for a contractor. Would love a chance to learn how to do it right. Where does a guy in south central Missouri go.
Bill
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Bill - Check the local newspaper want ads. I have found many a job through the paper. If you want to serve a formal apprenticeship, look up the aplicable union in the phone book and give them a call. You might try posting a job request in "Help/Jobs Wanted" here at Breaktime. Drive around a little, and stop at a jobsite and talk to the guys there. - jb
*Bill, I'd see what is available for schools in your area. Most states have 2 year programs through the community or technical college systems. Try Yahoo and type in Missouri Colleges .... there may be something there for you. I'm in school now ..... its been a tough road, trying to juggle work and school and a 112 mile round trip commute but it has been worth it ..... you realize how much you don't know. My only regret is that I didn't do this a quarter of a century ago.School is not the only way. If you can find someone who does the type of work that you would like to do .... go to work for him. More than a few have got their start this way. Good Luck to you.
*Jim A gild is an association of professionals. similar to a union. It sets up training progams and certifies masters. A master then takes on a apprentice. I am talking to a friend who came up through a system like that in Austraila. I am about to approach the local Tech school. No local schools teach carpentry except the high school shop class ( a joke). It may be a pipe dream. And I may end up teaching the classroom part in my shop at night but wish me luck.
*Here's something you might be interested trying. I attended the smallest public school in the State of Mass. We had a program there called "Building Structures". The school district hired a carpenter/contractor to teach and had a business arrangement with the local lumber yard to supply materiels. Every fall we would start a new house. Upper classmen (10-12) would work at the house all morning, then have a few "core" classes in the afternoon, when the freshmen would work on the house. At the end of the school year, they would sell the house, however far it got (and I guess that's when the lumber yard got paid). After I left, I think they might have started the following year off by finishing the previous year's house, but that wasn't normal. The best man at my wedding got hired after he graduated to help teach there. I think he told me that one year they remodeled an old house that had been partially burned.One of the coolest things about this program was that it gave us a choice besides sitting in a chair all day. Obviously, that isn't for everyone. When I was a senior, our Math teacher had us build a glider. I mean a glider a person could get in and glide. Pretty open minded folks, huh? I have often thought of trying to get something like that going.
*The carpenters of the future...good question. Craftsmanship is not dead. Fine Homebuilding and Renovations work has completed my training. Alterations to older houses showed me how it was done in the past and there are a great many lessons to be learned there. There are many people who find it their life goal to learn and develope new techniques...though you may not see their work very often. Carpentry is usually a job..not a life. Anyone who eats, sleeps and drinks woodwork is usually lacking a life. Sad but true. (Sorry for going on a tangent). The houses of the future...dare I say it, will not be made of wood. They may have trim but wood framing is destined to go the way of the dinosaur...the writing is all over the wall. They will be made of composite materials, and the foundation and shell will be erected in 1 day. It will take 1 week to build a complete home with broadloom. Scary, yes, but within 25 years our trade will be relegated to installation work. Why?... The greenhouse effect and pollution smog problem can be cured. Trees are the key. We need our forests back and a living tree will be much more valuable than one turned into decking. Secondly the building technology is nearly in place to construct dwellings that will be superinsulated, and far beyond any wood framed crate as far as structural integrity. Think of houses built as a series of modules that stack and join and allow for limited movement. Earthquake and hurricane proof homes...tornado proof???Maybe. Just forget about cutting sheathing and decking and joists and you will find yourself closer to the future. Sorry gents. Things haven't changed much since Frank LLoyd Wright...but they are about to. (ohh and Fred, prefabbing in Mexico will not be economically feasible. Trucking the wood down and trucking the houses back will be economically impossible due to the high cost of transportation, it may be tried, but I don't see it working out.)L
*In the words of my very wise father,b "You ain't seen nothing yet"! I was a combination Automotive Technologies/Building and Construction Trades teacher for 8 years in Texas. (I hold a dual Vocational Trades teaching certificate). I got out of the teaching business for a couple of reasons, but the main reason was because the State of Texas cut funding for these types of vocational training courses to the bone (and then some). The powers that be thought that these types of trades were not useful for students to learn, and they started concentrating their money and efforts on computer and business related subjects. According to the reports coming from the Department of Labor in the early 90's, there was not enough demand for building trades, electricians, plumbers, auto technicians, etc... to justify the money the schools were spending. They are finding out now that they made one heck of a large mistake. We have an association of building contractors (mostly industrial) that have started a training center for future construction trades personnel. Unfortunately, these guys and gals are not learning much about residential type construction. The courses are geared for the petrochemical industry, and these guys are not making very good money once they hit the job market. It keeps the industrial contractors with many employees to choose from, but the residential and light commercial trades here are suffering badly. I have learned through experience (both with teaching and with a business of my own) that most younger people do not WANT to work at a job that requires hard work and discipline. They much prefer the easy office jobs, with the air conditioning and the cushy chairs to sit in. Most will gladly take a minimum wage job so they can sit back and take it easy. Many find out that even those minimum wage jobs require them to actually work, and they quit as soon as they find out. It is indeed a sad state in our work forces today. While most of you build houses and other large structures, I have concentrated my efforts and my business on repairing these homes and buildings. I have made a very good living at it, and because there are very, very few individuals capable of repairing these homes correctly I will continue to thrive. I have a waiting list 6 - 8 weeks long, all year long. I do feel very sorry for the homeowners though. Their choice for getting work done on their homes is getting very limited. I have found, however, that a lot of "helpers" one week turn out to be business owners the next week. They feel like they can start their own business and make lots of money at it. About 80% fail miserably withing a few short weeks. Until the powers that be decide that the trades need to be elevated to a higher level of acceptance, and that a deficiency in the number of available skilled workers is eliminated, then we will find the problem getting worse. As older, more experienced workers in our field retire, there does not seem to be enough intelligent younger workers to fill in the gap. As time goes on, this gap will increase to an alarming size. By then it will be too late. Just my two cents worth. Sorry I babbled on, but this is a subject that bothers me terribly. James DuHamelOwner, J & M Home Maintenance Service
*James - as far as I'm concerned, you don't ever have to apologize for feeling passionate about something and sayin' it. We could use a little more of that in our society. I respect folks who "give a damn", about whatever. - jb
*James You raise a good point about the youth of today. I dont expect to find a slew of hard workers ready to go. But I have found if you can teach them to have pride in their work you can make them want to learn. What I want to do is formalize the way it is done now. Take a young person under my wing and tech them. Give them an attainable goal and definite criteria for reaching it. When they are done then they take an appentice and I will find another. These will not be the people that will build neighborhoods. They will learn and be able to keep learning so they can adapt to new building techniques. If any of you teachers know where I can get carpentry textbooks please send the information.
*I just recently started attending Fitchburg State College in Fitchburg, Mass. The school has a very good industrial technology program with one concentration in construction technology. The focus of the program is to train more for project management than anything else, but it provides more than just training. A good deal of the time in this course is actually spent doing the applications, not just reading about them in a book. Each student also completes one or more internships in his/her field. The program basically puts you into the workforce with a good deal more immediate potential than someone coming fresh out of trade school. I have worked side by side summers and weekends with several carpenters and they all wish that such a program was available when they got into the trade. Take a look into it, if Fitchburg is a ways off for you, check out similar programs offered by other
*I read the following in another discussion and can't take credit for it, but I have been thinking about it. Someone said that the carpenters of the future will come from that multitude of college grads who can't find work or hate their jobs. I dropped out of college several years ago to pursue a desire to learn how to work with wood...very happy. Ended up on a carpentry crew that did everything from frame to finish....very very happy. Due to some sort of "combo internal external when are you gonna be a professional" pressure I finished undergrad work and got accepted to a masters program in wood design and construction....sort of happy. The point to this rambling is that I see all sorts of bright young people who have to fight through six interviews just to get paid $10 an hour. I know that my degree will serve as a good back up, but I can't wait to get back on the job site with my bags on. I don't agree that all houses will be "built in one day", and I believe that engineered wood products will be the norm while the methods will remain somewhat familiar. If you want to find some potential employees try some of the local colleges and maybe you'll change someones life and gain a good employee.
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Keith, Rich, Jack, Stephen:
I want to encourage you to do something very strange...
...but I do it too, so you won't be alone, if that is any consolation.
I want you to talk to strangers.
I am a first generation "carpenter". I didn't have anyone to hand me down tools or give me pointers while I watched in the workshop. The days of passing along your trade to your kids may be gone, but I think there is still interest in skilled trades. I suggest that you mentors find people like me. We slow down to watch construction, we are fascinated by what is being done in our homes and follow you around while you're here, we ask every sort of annoying question etc etc. I think the signs are there, but we have to be perceptive enough to spot interest, and patient enough to encourage it.
After watching me paint, build shelving, hang crown and base molding, and a miriad other projects around her home, one woman asked small questions like what the tools were named. When she called me back several monthes later for more work, I wasn't all that surprised to find that she had asked for some simple tools for Xmas. She had even drilled holes in cabinets to put door pulls in. This from a lady who didn't even own a hammer previously. They were of mismatched heights, but more power to her! I'm not suggestng that the future labour pool will come from 30-ish yuppie wives, BUT, this is one person's perception that I have changed. Maybe her kid will inherit her tools...
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Lynn,
I have had some sucess with just what you said. I have taken two teens under my wing. Actually sitting down and teaching them something. It is going well. and they are resopnding suprisingly well. I hope they keep up the effort. and it is rewarding.
Rick Tuk
*I do maintanence in a Children's Home (a manufactured housing unit, so there is a LOT of maintanence). I try and let the kids do stuff when they want to: putting in screws, assembling storm door handles, mudding dry wall, etc.The kids are always appreciative and all it takes from me is a bit of time and (sometimes a lot of) patience.A while back, I was a bit concerned that one kid was putting holes in the wall because he enjoyed helping fix them! But I finally realized that wasn't the case.Rich Beckman
*Cool! Good for you, Rich. Your patience is a contribution to the society we live in.Maybe one of those youngsters will be a lead man in a few years. I hope so, that he or she may enjoy the rewards of our trades.Steve
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Well. I certainly got an earfull of that subject. Let me fill in some more back ground on my particular program , its designed for 11th and 12th graders in our high school. the program is three class periods per day( approx 3hrs) the first year I teach the kids the basics hand and power tool use framing roofing siding drywall trim stairs ect the second year is spent mostly on a job site builing some thing in the area weve done additions new homes remodeling deck siding jobs ect. Ive been doing this for eight years now and my biggest problem is the counselers at our school think my program is for the three d's, dopers, dummies and dropouts. Dont get me wrong Ive had some really fantastic kids come through the program, but these kids would have suceeded in any area they chose. Ive found that the kids really want to learn when they find out that we dont sit in front of a chalk board all class period. Also many of the parents these days have the go to colledge syndrome even though their children may not be suited for is for one reason or another. I just wanted to thank every body for responding to my inquiry. Thanks
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Where will the carpenters of the future come from?I'm from the Cleveland OH area and we still have a pretty strong union so we have an established apprentice program. I know that many areas are having a qualified labor shortage. I've been teaching carpentry to high school students here for about 8 years.
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It occurs to me...
It is not just a matter of teaching when the chance arises, or letting a kid participate on some level or other. It is also a matter of demonstrating the dignity and reward of the profession. If young people hear you complain and curse, see you unhappy, and are treated poorly by you, then they are not likely to be interested in emulating you.
On the other hand, when a tradesman behaves professionally and courteously, and treats the young person with respect and dignity, THEN that young person is going to really think that the trades are a respectable and rewarding place to be.
I think of my four years in college majoring in English Lit. I learned that English Professors were not the kind of people I wanted to spend my career with.
Rich Beckman