Hello all,
I’ve got a quick question regarding tray ceilings. I seem to be having a misunderstanding with my framer here. My understanding is that the outside part of the tray is at flush with the normal ceiling height while the tray section in the center is X” higher? However my framer is keeping the tray at the normal ceiling height and bringing the outside part down lower to create the tray effect.
Is this normal? What is considered the standard way for doing a tray?
thanks,
DP
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Replies
DP-
Is this new construction? Single story or two story? Is room on main floor?
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Yes it is new construction. The trays are on the first floor. The Kitchen tray has floor joists above and the eating area tray has nothing above it. There is a closet space above the kitchen.
When meeting with the architect, his idea of a tray is above not below. But then others I've talked to have a different interpretation.
I wasn't sure whether this was something i should make an issue out of.
thanks,
DP
The Kitchen tray has floor joists above and the eating area tray has nothing above it.
Talk to the architect. It should have been specified in his plans. The builder can't hardly cut away at the floor joists to make the tray.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Amen to that, I was going to say the same thing--if the joists are in and they're at 8', what is the builder supposed to do? He certainly can't cut away the joists (second floor would fall down :-) ).
talk to the architect
If you or anyone else knows how to translate architubobbledeedee you could publish a best seller for the building trade. A favorite true story of mine is about a rather well known and well respected arch firm in a very affluent suburb of Atlanta. I was checking a take off for an associate who was bidding on an "Architurally Correct" design for a 1+ mil home in a historic area. Long story short, the plan was for a
two story house with a bonus room/ 3rd story, and it was a beauty, with page after page of detail for casework, base bds, cabinetry, book shelves, coach lanterns, garden fencing, stairway design......OH SH*T THERE AIN'T NO STAIR WAY ON THE PLAN ANYWHERE!
Sounds rediculous but its true, and it was alot of fun sketching them in with a crayon.
When I was a draftsman for an ironworks there was a well known architectural firm that had a huge coded list for all the doors and windows. After I spent 20 minutes deciphering the code, I saw that in one location I was concerned with, it called for a 7'-2" door. Refering back to the drawings themselves, they showed a 6'-8" door. So I called the archy's office. The guy I talked to was condescendingly patient and explains the whole chart to me and I explain I've got that figured out, but there is a discrepancy between the chart and the drawing. So he, less patiently, explains it all again. Then he says, "Oh, wait, the chart calls for a 7'-2" door and the drawing shows a 6'-8" door!" No s***! Same archy called for a certain way of attaching the steel to the foundation. My boss/owner of the firm, says, just give 'em J-hooks. So that's what I detail out. Plans come back and I haven't seen so much red pen on a paper since grade school. The guy is obviously ticked that I, a lowly draftsman, didn't obey is orders! So the boss looks at the scribbled red (and yellow too, lucky me!) and says, "I guess we better do it his way." Same archy was designing a 4000 square foot living room addition complete with pool, heated marble floors, his and her saunas. He send orders over that the support steel in the floor was to run east-west. I'd draw it. Two days later, he call--change it to n-s. A week later, e-w. That went on and was still going on when I left for a new job. That was just after I was helping straighten up a 15' stack of fire doors and they dominoed and pinned my shoulder to another stack of doors. But that's another story.
Yes it is new construction. The trays are on the first floor. The Kitchen tray has floor joists above and the eating area tray has nothing above it. There is a closet space above the kitchen.
I didn't read that before my first post. I just assumed it was on the second floor ceiling. Since you said the trays are on the first floor and the kitchen has floor joists above it he's framing it correct. It's impossible to raise the joists. It sounds like it was an after thought. If you have 8' ceiling there it's going to be a low ceiling when he's done. If you really wanted a nice high looking tray ceiling on the first floor from the start you should've increased the ceiling heights to 9' or 10' but that causes other issues with height requirements and added expence.
The eating area has nothing above it?
Is this an area that is a bump out with a shed roof above it and he's using the rafters as part of the tray?
Joe Carola
9 ft ceilings and no it was not an after thought. The eating area is a bump out with shed roof. I talked with the architect yesterday. He said the tray is supposed to be higher then 9ft. His understanding is that's the standard for a tray. He had another name for the lowered version, though i can't recall how he referred to it.
thanks,
DP
Edited 8/24/2004 8:37 am ET by dperfe
Did he explain how one could get the tray higher than 9 feet, if the first floor walls are only 9 feet high?
That's good that you have a 9' ceiling and the eating area is a bump out with a shed roof. He should've framed the tray at least 10-6" to 11' which from where I'm from that's normal. If he's doing the tray in the eat in ares 9' and down in my eyes the definitely wrong. Your Architect should have that shown in the cross section on the plans. If not it's hard to tell the framer he's wrong. If he's a good framer he should've picked up on it also.
By you saying that the Architect calls the lower version (which I assume is the kitchen area) another name he must obviouly know that in that area the tray isn't going any higher than 9'. In this kitchen area, how far down did they come and how far across the beams did they come?
This whole discussion has to be about the eat in area.
Joe Carola
Edited 8/24/2004 10:17 am ET by Framer
"By you saying that the Architect calls the lower version (which I assume is the kitchen area) another name he must obviouly know that in that area the tray isn't going any higher than 9'. In this kitchen area, how far down did they come and how far across the beams did they come?"
The framer hasn't done it yet.
In saying the lower version, i wasn't intending just the kitchen area. To be more clear, I meant that the tray ceiling instead of rising above 9' with the outside part at 9', the tray is at 9' with the outside part lower. I think he referred to it as some kind of phaux tray.
Also, no he did not say how to bring it higher then the nine feet.
thanks
DP
The archy should have provided framing details for the shed, showing collar ties in place of ceiling joists, if he wanted the ceiling raised there. The carps can't read minds.
Is this how he did the shed roof tray?
Joe Carola
He hasn't done the trays yet. It will be a tray and not a coffer.
DP
If he hasn't done it yet your in good shape tell him to do it right and raise it up on the shed roof rafters to whatever you want them to be and that's it.Is there anything on the plans that show ceiling beams there or does it just show rafters? If that's the case these are not structural, so put them where you want.
What size are the rafters? Are they 2x8's because depending on where the code might require the part of the rafters that are being used for the tray might have to be 2x10's for insulating.
Joe Carola
i gotta ask- whats the difference between a tray and a coffer, i thought they were the same thing. larry
"...whats the difference between a tray and a coffer..."
Around here, the terms are used interchangeably. I think it's kinda regional.It is hard to fail, but it is worse to never have tried to succeed. In this life we get nothing, save by effort. [Teddy Roosevelt]
A coffer is angled, a tray is a step. Atleast around here.
DP
As far as I can tell, there is no "standard" try ceiling. Everyone has a different idea of what they are.
I see some with sloped sides, some with vertical sides, some framed above the plate line, and some below. Some start 2' in from the walls, others 30" or 3' in.
The best possible scenario is if the ceiling heights and dimensions in the tray are spelled out on the plans. But that doesn't happen very often around here.
I wouldn't have turned out the way I was if I didn't have all those old-fashioned values to rebel against. [Madonna]
If it a planned trey, or it's on the 2nd floor or 1st floor with no 2nd floor above, it's usually as you describe. However, there is no "set" rule.
We've framed very few down sloping treys and never on an 8'-0 ceiling.
What do the plans show?
Was it an after thought and the ceiling beams are in already?
If it was on the plans it has to show the location and height of where the ceiling beams go in the cross section because now there're acting as collar ties.
If it's an after thought and you want them raised up to create let's say a 10' ceiling and your walls are 8' you have to check with the architect first.
Every tray ceiling I do I raise the ceiling beams up X" higher then the outside plate and use the bottom of the rafters as part of the tray and then frame the rest.
The only time I've done it the way he's doing it is when the ceiling beams are in already and you don't want to remove the ceiling beams but that was on a 9' ceiling and we brought the tray down to 8'. Wouldn't do it on an 8' ceiling.
Joe Carola
Yeah, this is the architect's problem. You can't have the ceiling any higher than the bottom of the joists above it. Height is pretty much dictated by structure.
Since a true tray ceiling is out of the question, consider this option. Have the drywaller creat a tray that is 1/2 to 1 inch thick. I've seen this done on high end homes and with the right paint job, it looks great.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
If you are working with the first floor or any floor with another floor above it, you are limited by the ceiling joists. If your ceiling height is high enough to create a coffered ceiling, you would bring down the sides. If you are on the top floor, you theoretically have more space to work with because of the attic, so you can raise the center portion.