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Discussion Forum

Tread width on winders and code

mathewson | Posted in General Discussion on October 11, 2009 06:18am

Anybody have experience with winder treads being larger than common treads and passing code?

I’ve got a job coming up where the winders to the attic space are much larger than the common treads. about 14″ on the winders and 10″ on the common. The stairs are framed and there is in-floor heating imbedded in concrete, so moving anything is a big expense.

Around here they follow the 2006 IRC and here is where the rub is. My reading is that common and winders cannot vary by more than 3/8″. Builder states that winders cannot vary by more than 3/8″- which they don’t, in the second part of the code.

Homeowner really likes the wider look, which probably drove the design choice. Neither the homeowner or contractor wish to draw attention to it, so getting a building inspector involved it not an option.

R311.5.3.2 Tread depth.
The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches (254
mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally
between the vertical planes of the foremost projection
of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread’s
leading edge. PHOTO 8. The greatest tread depth
within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest
by more than ⅜ inch (9.5 mm). PHOTO 9.

Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of
10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12
inches (305 mm) from the side where the treads are
narrower. DRAWING 10. Winder treads shall have
a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any
point. DRAWING 11. Within any flight of stairs, the
greatest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm)
walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than
⅜ inches (9.5 mm).

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Replies

  1. jackplane | Oct 11, 2009 06:46pm | #1

    Winders by nature vary from 1 or 2" at the start side to much wider than a common tread. I don't see how anyone can build winders to meet this code. I'd be interested in others' response.

    Expert since 10 am.

    1. fingersandtoes | Oct 11, 2009 08:12pm | #2

      Our code says minimum width of winders at the narrow end can't be less than 6". When you work out a stair using them it takes up more space than having a landing in most cases.

    2. mathewson | Oct 11, 2009 08:25pm | #3

      Here is the link to the stair code http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006%20Stair%20IRC%20SCREEN.pdfIt outlines 6" at the narrow point and 10" at the walk line.

    3. Piffin | Oct 11, 2009 09:51pm | #6

      don't think I have ever seen a winder with only an inch at inside. Could be on some really old ones, but most I see are about 3" inside for older homes.However, did you see the quoted code - 6" inside required now? 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. fingersandtoes | Oct 11, 2009 10:28pm | #8

        Many of the older homes in Victoria have quite nice exteriors but a meanness to the interior finishes that you probably didn't get on the East Coast. My sister's stair is only 30" wide and has winders that go down to 1 1/2" at the inside. Walk too close to that newel post and your heels go out from under you and you end up with a mark on the back of your neck that matches the shape of the nosing.

      2. jackplane | Oct 11, 2009 10:37pm | #10

        yep, I see the new code at 6" min. start side. In my house, I built them a few years ago at 2" start side to about 14,15" long width. Ok to match existing in this historic district.Expert since 10 am.

    4. MikeSmith | Oct 12, 2009 04:45am | #19

      i've built a couple of them to code... the easiest way to lay them out is in a cad program

      start with the 6" minimum and the 12" travel line and it  starts to make senseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  2. MSA1 | Oct 11, 2009 09:38pm | #4

    I built a small set of winders awhile back. It really wasnt that bad. If I remember correctly the code called for 10" of tread 12" from the inside of the corner and something like 6" min on the inside.

    Took me about an hour to lay them out but they worked fine.

     

    Family.....They're always there when they need you.

    1. Snort | Oct 11, 2009 09:53pm | #7

      FWIW... I've never seen an inspector even check the tread depth at the walk line. We are allowed to have 4" at the narrowest end, and I've only seen that looked at, in more than passing, once.In my experience, if the stairs feel comfortable, and the job is neat, BI is going to walk on by... probably doesn't help your situation, though <G>http://www.tvwsolar.com

      We'll have a kid

      Or maybe we'll rent one

      He's got to be straight

      We don't want a bent one

      He'll drink his baby brew

      From a big brass cup

      Someday he may be president

      If things loosen up

  3. Piffin | Oct 11, 2009 09:48pm | #5

    I am not sure what the problem is, you don't state it clearly.

    You refer to width here, but the quoted refers to depth at walk line, and you don't6 say how it is framed at all.

    You realize these are minimums, and not maximums, right?

    Who are all the characters and which one are you? The HO or the GC?

    Or are you the trim guy?

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. mathewson | Oct 11, 2009 10:29pm | #9

      Piffin,I'm the trim guy for these stairs. They are cut stringers, framed walls underneath with temp treads in place. I'm know that there are min code requirements. That is pretty much the question. The common treads are 10", but the winders are about 14" when measured 12" from the inside skirt (I.E. the walk line). My understanding is that tread depth at walk line can vary by more than 3/8", for both the common and winder treads.The contractor states that the winders can be much wider than the rest as long as the winders themselves don't vary by more than 3/8" regardless of size on the rest of the treads in that flight of stair.I can't copy the image from the link but photos #10 & #11shows what I'm trying to describe. So as you come down the stairs you would have 10",10",10",10",10",10", 14",14",14", 10",10"

      1. Piffin | Oct 11, 2009 11:14pm | #11

        I see the problem now.If the HO and the GC want them that way, I would finish it out that way. At least, if the inspector does turn it down, it is their money, and it is easier to fix that by shortening than to go the other direction. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. mathewson | Oct 11, 2009 11:38pm | #12

          I'm not responsible for the code concern both in writing and going over it with both parties in detail. I'm more concerned with understanding the code. As an aside all of this is custom made over the post wreathed rail. I've explained that if it doesn't pass, rebuilding will be much more expensive than changing now.

  4. McMark | Oct 11, 2009 11:46pm | #13

    Anybody have experience with winder treads being larger than common treads and passing code?

    What is your role here?

    Winders are always going to be bigger (and smaller) than commons. 

    Is this a grandfathered structure, if so, then no big deal.

    1. mathewson | Oct 12, 2009 01:07am | #14

      McMark,I must not be explaining things well. Of course winders will be smaller at the narrow end and wider at the wall end. The concern becomes at the walk-line, 12" from the inside skirt. As I understand the code it cannot vary by more than 3/8" be they common or winder. The builder claims that they can. One position is correct and the other wrong. I'm not looking to win an argument, but to understand the correct interpretation of the current code.I'm not sure what my role has to do with the situation, but I'm the person who is going to trim what is there and make the balustrade.This is upper-end new construction.

      Edited 10/11/2009 6:08 pm ET by mathewson

      1. User avater
        Matt | Oct 12, 2009 01:30am | #15

        You have the visual interpretation of the stair code so there shouldn't be much more to be explained.  One thing though - you need to be sure that your state is using the 2006 IRC without modification.  Here, in NC we use the 2006 IRC but it has been modified to be more liberal with respect to winders.

        I think the intent of the code is that stairs like the ones in the attached sketch not be built as they might be a trip hazard.

        As far as your role and all that....  That aside, don't feel weird about being literate on code items than people you deal with...  It happens in this industry all the time, and few people I deal with other than code officials own and read code books.  It almost makes me throw up when I hear/read someone say something along the line of "my brother in law's son said that an inspector told him bla bla bla "...

        Sounds like you need to just get it in writing what you are being told to do.  Might be as simple as a written bid that says "winder stairs to be bla bla bla per specific instructions from the general contractor", or similar, and get the guy to sign off on the bottom where it says "bid acceptance".

        Edited 10/11/2009 6:38 pm ET by Matt

        1. User avater
          Matt | Oct 12, 2009 01:39am | #16

          here is the pic....

        2. john7g | Oct 12, 2009 06:41pm | #26

          >It almost makes me throw up when I hear/read someone say something along the line of <

          Ditto.  I don't know how they do business and not know the rules to play by.  Code books aren't that expensive. 

      2. Piffin | Oct 12, 2009 02:59pm | #24

        "I'm not sure what my role has to do with the situation,"In your OP, it was not clear. Since liability and cost absorption can bite the RP in the butt, it is part of the conversation. You are clearly not the RP, other than to inform them that a later change will be very expensive 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  5. brucet9 | Oct 12, 2009 03:36am | #17

    I don't think you have a problem.

    The text that you included says that winder treads may not vary more than 3/8" from any other WINDER treads, not from the common treads.

    BruceT
    1. Snort | Oct 12, 2009 04:08am | #18

      We can call inspections for any clarifications. They don't need to know who you are.And if there is problem... what does the radiant floor have to do with reframing? I haven't tried drawing it, but can't you get another winder in, or lengthen the commons and shorten the winders?http://www.tvwsolar.com

      We'll have a kid

      Or maybe we'll rent one

      He's got to be straight

      We don't want a bent one

      He'll drink his baby brew

      From a big brass cup

      Someday he may be president

      If things loosen up

      1. mathewson | Oct 12, 2009 05:20am | #20

        In Seattle we have a "code hotline" where you can call in questions about code clarification. It is a voicemail only system where you leave a message as to your concern. It states that someone will call back within 24hrs. I've called twice in the past week- no response.I've stated that I could rebuild them to code, but the contention is that there is not a code concern. It seems to me that all treads at the walk line need to be the same.

        1. fingersandtoes | Oct 12, 2009 06:19am | #21

          "It states that someone will call back within 24hrs. I've called twice in the past week- no response."

          Isn't that the sweet kernel in the centre our modern connected world. Another promise not kept. Like waiting on hold for half an hour and then the line goes dead.

        2. TomW | Oct 12, 2009 07:16am | #22

          I don't see anything in the code statement that makes me think they need to be the same as common treads at the walk line.

          1. john7g | Oct 12, 2009 06:39pm | #25

            It's there in the 2006 IRC that requries that all treads in a run be within 3/8". 

            a line in R311.5.3.2 about Tread Depth sayeth: The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8". 

            The kicker is 'within any flight of stairs'.

            It also says the same about winders in the last line of that para which may lead some to believe that there can be differences between the winder portion and the straight runs but as I undestand it, a flight of stairs includes every tread unitl interupted by either a landing or the next floor. 

          2. TomW | Oct 12, 2009 07:36pm | #27

            My understanding was the winder portion can be different than the straight portion as long as the winder conditions are met. I thought I had seen a pictorial that even showed them combined, with a difference it tread width at the walk line between winder and straight. Not sure where I saw that though.

          3. TomW | Oct 12, 2009 08:35pm | #28

            The winder portion of the code also only givs a minimum dimension at the 12" walkline. At any point further than that the tread will be wider than the rest of the stair anyway. I beleive the intent of the code is to ensure that the narrowest portion of the stair has sufficient room to walk safely, not that it is the same as the rest of the stair.

            It is not clear from the op's post what portion fo his winder step is 14". From his posted picture it looks like it woule be fairly easy to adjust the steps to meet the code at the 12" walkline.   

          4. Piffin | Oct 12, 2009 08:47pm | #29

            "looks like it woule be fairly easy to adjust the steps "The hard part seems to be convincing the HO and the GC... 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          5. john7g | Oct 12, 2009 09:22pm | #30

            at the 12" line treads depths of a winder will be within 3/8" and the enitre flight will be within 3/8"

            I attached the page from the book. hope it doens't get me in trouble

            I couldn't find a def at ICC for flight of stairs but what other defs define it as from floor to floor, or floor to landing, so winders would be included in the flight of stairs requirement

            Edited 10/12/2009 2:23 pm ET by john7g

          6. TomW | Oct 12, 2009 09:38pm | #31

            I read that paragraph as making an exception for winder treads and providing a definition for the min requirements for them.  They have to match each other at the walk 12" walk line, not the rest of the stair.

            I think local code officials may all read it differently.

            It never states that the 12" walk line must match the rest of the stair. It only gives a minimum size at the 12" line. If the rest of your treads are 11" there will be a point somewhere on the winder where it is 11".

          7. john7g | Oct 12, 2009 09:53pm | #32

            >It never states that the 12" walk line must match the rest of the stair.<

            the def of flight of stairs includes the the winders and anything between the floor and another floor or landing. It' not saying striaght run is one flight, then the winders is another flight as I see it.  I'll see if i can find anything over at ICC forum later.  No time now. 

          8. TomW | Oct 12, 2009 10:07pm | #33

            I'm not saying it is calling it another set of stairs, just that it doesn't define that it must match the tread depth of the rest of the stair at the 12" line.

             

            If the rest of the stair has 14" treads, I'm reading this as saying that the winder could still have 10" at the walk line, since the winder, by definition, can't be within 3/8" of the rest of the stair since it is angled. The code is simply giving the minimum safe size for the narrowest portion of the winder step.

            If it is as you are saying then it should state that at the 12" walkline wider treads shall be within 3/8" of entire stair. It only states that at that point it must match the other winders. 

          9. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 12:15am | #34

            Stairs with winders, and no landings, are considered one flight... it's why they have to have a continuous handrail, and stairs with landings don't. I think that, technically, the winder tread width at the walk line should not vary by more than 3/8" from the straight runs.http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          10. TomW | Oct 13, 2009 12:26am | #35

            That may be true. I don't see it that way as the code is written though. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. I do find it curious that the statement about the width of winders at that point specifically requires them to be the same size as the other winders, not as the rest of the stair.Nothing in the statements says that at the 12" walk line, the winder stair must be within 3/8" of all stairs in the run.I had a winder stair drawn for my house in NH and the local code official had bought off on it and it met all the code requirements as I read them and was not the same as the rest of the stair at the 12" walk line, and he was pretty picky. I ended up using two landings since it was far simpler to build and took up less space.

          11. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 01:06am | #37

            Ya know, I thought the key word was flight, then I found this, and now I don't know what to think<G>Check out pages 5 & 6http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006%20Stair%20IRC%20SCREEN.pdfI got that from here:http://www.nachi.org/forum/f18/2006-international-residential-code-stair-code-6528/http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          12. TomW | Oct 13, 2009 01:28am | #38

            That's the page I remember. Page six clearly shows examples where the width of the winder is wider at the walkline than the rest of the stair. Especially the first and second examples on page six.

          13. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 01:56am | #39

            I doubt those pics are to any kind of scale, but this is what is vague. to me:Within any flight of stairs, the
            greatest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm)
            walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than
            3/8" inches (9.5 mm). The smallest what?http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          14. Piffin | Oct 13, 2009 02:57am | #41

            "The smallest what?"Smallest winder threadNeed some remedial grammar classes? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          15. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 02:46pm | #42

            Okay, edumicate me.edited for grammerhttp://www.tvwsolar.com We'll have a kid
            Or maybe we'll rent one
            He's got to be straight
            We don't want a bent one
            He'll drink his baby brew
            From a big brass cup
            Someday he may be president
            If things loosen up

            Edited 10/13/2009 8:13 am ET by Snort

          16. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 03:12pm | #43

            I just talked to an office with 5 inspectors... they all concur with you: the winders are independent of the straight treads.http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          17. john7g | Oct 13, 2009 04:58pm | #44

            interesting.  found over at http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search;search_forum=4 to generally be contrary to that. 

            it's up to our AHJs then isn't?

            eta and here's one that looks the smae as the discussion here http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=007506#000007

            Edited 10/13/2009 10:10 am ET by john7g

          18. Snort | Oct 13, 2009 07:44pm | #45

            Like I said, I think writing is vague. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on their interpretations, just passing along what I can go by.
            Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of
            10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12
            inches (305 mm) from the side where the treads are
            narrower. DRAWING 10. Winder treads shall have
            a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any
            point. DRAWING 11. Within any flight of stairs, the
            greatest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm)
            walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than
            3/8" inches (9.5 mm). What I got from our inspectors is that the written code would say:Within any flight of stairs, the
            greatest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm)
            walk line shall not exceed the smallest of any tread in the stairs by more than
            3/8" inches (9.5 mm). They are interpreting the winder passage as only pertaining to winders.http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          19. john7g | Oct 13, 2009 08:00pm | #46

            >not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on their interpretations, just passing along what I can go by.<

            Oh, I undertsand completely.  It is interesting to see the varying interpretations. I know what I'll drive myself to build to, whether the inspector will agree or have a diff expectiation, I should pass either way. 

          20. mathewson | Oct 14, 2009 04:21am | #47

            Snort,I'm surprised that the winders can be different. I was taught that the width had to be the same at the walk line. Now I'll have to wait and see if the BI is surprised too.

          21. Snort | Oct 14, 2009 03:00pm | #48

            He may be, judging from what I read on this board, there ain't no two's alike<p>practising my grammar, not my spellinghttp://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          22. mathewson | Oct 16, 2009 02:39am | #49

            Well today I got a call from the technical support office of the building dept. All treads must be within 3/8" at walk line no matter if common or winder. I guess the code depends on who is reading it.

          23. User avater
            Matt | Oct 16, 2009 02:47am | #50

            or who is enforcing it...

            I'll bet the "technical support" is an in-office book reader....  Like some of the plans reviewers here.   Nice people, but no actual expience related to actually building something...

          24. Snort | Oct 16, 2009 03:11am | #51

            So, re-framing you shall go?http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          25. mathewson | Oct 16, 2009 03:15am | #52

            Tomorrow I meet with the owners, We shall see...

          26. User avater
            Mongo | Oct 16, 2009 05:10am | #53

            Non winder treads have to be within 3/8" of each other.Winder tread have to be within 3/8" of each other. That's it. Each paragraph is dedicated to one type of tread...either the non-winder, or the winder.The winders and non-winders do NOT have to all be within 3/8" of each other.

          27. TomW | Oct 16, 2009 05:14am | #54

            That was my interpretation as well, but it appears to be pretty well split among both breaktimers and the various AHJ.

          28. TomW | Oct 16, 2009 05:17am | #55

            It would be interesting to see how an S shaped stair with both straight and winder treads would be handled, since the 12" walk line would have to swap from one side to the other to satisfy the code.

          29. brucet9 | Oct 16, 2009 05:34am | #56

            Troublemaker! :)BruceT

          30. Snort | Oct 16, 2009 02:49pm | #57

            Weren't you working on an article of code variations and interpretations around the country? Got any winder poop?http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          31. AndyE | Oct 16, 2009 04:37pm | #58

            Sorry, I think you may be looking for Andy Engle, and he's not me.Andy

          32. Snort | Oct 16, 2009 07:41pm | #59

            Anybody remember Andy Engle's handle?http://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          33. john7g | Oct 16, 2009 07:49pm | #60

            mebbe AndyEngel

          34. Snort | Oct 16, 2009 08:05pm | #61

            That was 2nd try<g>...no dicehttp://www.tvwsolar.com

            We'll have a kid

            Or maybe we'll rent one

            He's got to be straight

            We don't want a bent one

            He'll drink his baby brew

            From a big brass cup

            Someday he may be president

            If things loosen up

          35. User avater
            Mongo | Oct 17, 2009 01:36am | #62

            Luddite-Boy

          36. Piffin | Oct 13, 2009 02:45am | #40

            I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do see it clearly written that way. The entire flight contains the winders and the variance of treads in any flight of stairs needs to be no more than 3/8"I'm not saying I agree with that, just that that is what is says. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        3. Snort | Oct 12, 2009 02:13pm | #23

          <It seems to me that all treads at the walk line need to be the same.>That's what I read, too.We're lucky, I guess, our inspections takes calls every morning, and if the BI I talk to doesn't know, he does get back to me.Good luck on this one.http://www.tvwsolar.com

          We'll have a kid

          Or maybe we'll rent one

          He's got to be straight

          We don't want a bent one

          He'll drink his baby brew

          From a big brass cup

          Someday he may be president

          If things loosen up

  6. User avater
    aimless | Oct 13, 2009 12:56am | #36

    Is there a landing between the common stair and the winders?

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  • Issue 331 - June 2025
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