I’ve been asked to bid building a copy of this deck:
http://www.trex.com/Universal/showcase/space/leaf_deck.asp
Any advice welcome…anyone do something like this?
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Replies
Well, at least you have a picture.
DO NOT bid for free!
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I agree, (dont bid for free) Whats the deal with the free estimate thing? I charge for all my estimates (not alot but something). Can we all set the standard for charging for this? Please!!!!!
-Lou
Calvin & ALLBallpark or T&M free, Detailed Fixed-Price Proposal for $180?Based on the SWAG method, this project could take two skilled carpenters busy for 3 weeks...10K for labor and another 10K for materials.I can't afford to run over by a week or something.
I couldn't figure a detailed material list for 180.
The second one will be easier.
Seek out some advice from Prodek and Joe Wood.
Would be a sweet job, not the oridinary.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
"Based on the SWAG method, this project could take two skilled carpenters busy for 3 weeks...10K for labor and another 10K for materials.
I can't afford to run over by a week or something."
Been a while since I was doing decks for $, and not sure what SWAG means but 20K for a deck like that seems way too cheap! That will not be a typical deck when finished so the price should match. If you had suggested 50K I would have thought you are closer to the price range.. (shrug)
S-W-A-G is the acronymn for Scientific Wild A$$ Guess...means I really have no idea and could easily be off by a factor of 2 or more.
Silly Wild A$$ Guess
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
240 hours total.... everything including layout, pouring piers, framing (curved rims, I'd guess), bending and cutting in all the curved borders (and exposed rims), and then the decking and railing too?? I know for a fact that the very good carpenter I work with, and I, could not do that in 3 weeks.
I'm just a fool throwing numbers around at this point. None of the other contractors approached about this project were willing or able to do it or even bid it.I think I am the only one left crazy enough to do it. I think advice from you and the rest of the BT crew here can help me avoid making big mistakes on the bidding and building of this thing...if it goes forward.I'm running two days behind on a 6 day project right now...so I could easily take another week or so on something I expect to take 3 weeks. It is good to get the heads up here instead of out on the job.Edit to add: I'm not including railing...I think that will be from a metal shop.Edited 6/10/2006 10:52 am ET by basswood
Edited 6/10/2006 12:00 pm ET by basswood
Off the top of my head I think that's 2 men, 5-6 weeks. Has anyone else thrown a number out in this thread, I can't remember. Part of it depends on the framing details. My own curved deck has curved rim board, laminated from 3 plies of 1/2" PT CDX, but I have seen people just do faceted rim boards from straight sections, and it looks kinda ugly to me. Don't forget that with the border detail you need extra framing to nail the ends of the decking to, because they won't make it to the rim. Just getting layout in place will take some careful doing.
I don't actually know that I would 'bid' a deck like that. It's one of those things where I'd have to go quite high to cover myself, and it might not be fair to the owner.
I did a fairly simple 3 level Trex pool deck last summer. It was about 1000 square feet total and had no curves. I charged $35,000.00 and wish I had charged more. The next bid was $55,000.00.
Got any pictures, Florida? I'd love to see a $35,000 deck... especially if it's really a $55,000 deck. Decks rock. They can be such a showcase of craftsmanship with their detail oriented framing and well crafted finish.
(Sorry for the sorta-hijack basswood.... maybe Florida's pictures will give you an idea of a price range you should be in though)View Image
I'd like to see it too...I'll take all the help I can get. I do decks about as often as I frame (once or twice a year).
The $35K also included demolition of the old deck although that wasn't much of a job since it nearly fell apart by itself. I should also add that the deck was isolated behind the house so that the only way to move material back and forth was man power. That ate up a lot of time and money. Also, this is an oceanfront house so every hurricane clip, joist hanger, nail and screw was stainless steel. I think I spent something like $1100.00 just on the deck screws. It wasn't really a very fancy deck but being oceanfront required lots of framing and support. Just recently did another Trex deck not far from the first one. That one was also $35,000.00 even though the total deck area was probably less than 500 square feet. The pool was elevated 5 feet above ground level and the engineer called out some massive framing. The Sanibel building inspector told me it was the most bombproof deck he'd ever seen.I've made 3 tries uploading some pictures but keep getting an error message. I'll try again tomorrow.
If you'd like, you could email the pictures to me and I'll try posting them for you. Regardless, thanks for the 411.... sounds like some cool projects.View Image
Wow,I don't know what these folks are prepared to spend...they do want a bid, but have said they are not after the lowest bid. As I mentioned, I may be the only bid.I wonder if they would do cost + 10% (not to exceed some number).
most people doing "cost + 10%" go broke
for two reasons
1) they really don't identify all of their costs.. because they don't know them
2) someplace along the way a number gets discussed..and that number gets implanted in the customer's memory bank..
when that number gets exceeded, the customers becomes upset and stays upset.. some never get paid for all they bill.. and the job winds up being "cost minus 10%"
in our area.. insurance adjusters will commonly allow a markup of 25%.. ( 15% overhead & 10% profit )
high end work ( curved decks ) is hig risk.. high risk = high reward, price accordinglyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"most people doing "cost + 10%" go broke" ....
yup...very well summarized. I had a few of those in my time and that is why I converted to my philosophy of the high priced "bid".
Highest priced deck I worked on was 18 or so years ago, for a guys cottage ( which incidently was significantly larger than the deck appears to be in this thread, but no curves ) which was billed and quoted to the client at 100K. This price included custom made metal railing system, staining (decking was all clear cedar), a hot tub, and a little pump house (about 4'x5') related to hot tub, and some lighting for deck. All design work and construction drawings were done by a landscape architect (billed separately).
The guy freaked when he got the quote...but said go ahead. Yes there was a hefty profit margin but the guy got the deck he wanted which matched the "cottage" the he had spent a fortune building. It was like a very large piece of cedar furniture. I heard later that he liked to brag about how much he spent having it built.
Obviously the budget was generous, but it allowed the deck that was wanted... to be built. Morale of the story is don't be afraid to charge a premium price for a unique/premium product.
Looks like two tricky parts
Once the curved boards are down, the rest is just lots of cutting and fitting.
Your customer is aware that this ain't gonna be cheap, right?? - lol
Dave45 & ALLI'm thinking lots of piers and short posts under 4x6 beams, with joists on 10" centers, and lots of short cantilevers to support curves past the beams. Beams & joists running in different directions, lots of bay shaped framing. Ripped, bent and laminated treated ply for the curved rim (kinda like a sub-fascia--then covered with trex banding).I would have to spend hours planning this and hours rethinking things on the job too.
I have built quite a few extensive decks using Trex, and I have often billed T&M.
Is this possible with your client?
I don't know how to bid it, but I sure envy you having the opportunity to build it! Need any help? ;)
I would enjoy working on some of your projects too...I remember some nice porches and other classy exterior trim details on your jobs. Part framer, part trim carp.I was a trim carp playing a framer this past week. I did a post and beam shed addition (10x24) with 15 hand cut rafters (not bad after you get the first one right). I framed one small addition last year (12x12) for a friend, but it had trusses. I frame just enough to keep my respect for you guys alive and well.
I think I read somewhere that to bend Trex deck boards you actually have to cut them in strips, and then glue them back together in the bent shape. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that or not. Better check with Trex first.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
That would be one sweet job! Lemme guess- 'ssippi riverfront property on a bluff? I'm in your neck of the river, I'd love to see it when finished.
As far as bidding, I got nothing but using a "normal" deck of similar and upping from there. How about contacting Trex or your supplier for some insight. Trex may be willing to help out contractors with the elaborate installs of their products. I know our suppliers have been very helpful in the La Crosse/Onalaska area. Who knows, Trex might have plans available for some of their showcase builds.
Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Plans would be a huge help on this project. I'll see what I can find.This build is right between us, on the river in Dakota, MN.Wanna help?
bass.. building that trex deck should also include buying a deck board bender.. they sell them..
i'd include the cost of the design as a separate item up front
and then i'd add the cost of the bender / heater unit into the job.. most of these fancy curved jobs are NOT done by slicing and laminating.. they use the heater/benderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I googled for a board bender and just turned up bo-wrenches and tweekers...do you know a link for what you are talking about...nothing on Trex.com about it.Thanks.On the cost - 10% thing, I've done a few of those--not on purpose!I'll try to be careful on this.
bass.. i had a brochure from a company that made a composite plank bender
i think you dould do about 3 planks at a time.
i just went googling and found this:
View Image
cool , huh ?... i mean, hot stuff , huh ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,Thanks for the pic. Then ignition temp for Sonotube is probably around 454deg., maybe lower with a waxy coating...I wonder what temp the salamander puts out--interesting.
Mike,
I had gotten info from a Trex rep at a show a few years ago when I asked about that ocean front deck they showed in their ad. He told me that they had to rip the boards in strips and then glue them in their bent shape. When I went to the Trex web site tonight, the info there shows that you can bend them down to a 10' radius with a heater. Below that it has to be ripped and heated to bend into a curve less than a 10' radius.
I learned something today!
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Bryan another Trex rep told me the ocean front deck is a scale model and then they photoshopped it into it's location....
??Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
It was a few years ago that I was given that information.
Makes you wonder sometimes how knowledgeable the reps really are.
Thanks,
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Would I ever like to help! I'm time commited for quite a while, but keep us posted. I'd like to even stop by to chat & BS a little while your there. Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
After I saw this about a year ago, I've been thinking about a maple leaf design for my backyard.
Having the photo to start is a great tool. You can use Photoshop or similar and scale it to plan the sub-structure. If you're adapting the size of this deck to local conditions, be sure to get sign-off from the owner on the altered/scaled shape. Maintaining the "feel" can be tricky.
You'll need backing under everything so even the framing is at least 4 to 6 times the labor and materials of a normal stepped deck. The Trex page says there is a special heat tool (an ice melting torch??) to bend the curves.
Have fun, its a job to be proud of.
Norse
Bid t"that deck"???
There is only half or a third or who knows how much ofthat deck showing in the photo! Can't even think about estimating that without knowing....
Then before making a bid, I would have to decide how am I going to builds it with detailed frame layout
Right now you have a vague idea with no certain values to plug into a formula
Curved work runs from x3 to x10 as much as same sq ft for normal deck.
i'm thinking I would be laying out raming pretty much typically, maybe at 12" OC but straight on. Then lay the trex straight through first. Then take a router and jigs ( cut the curve into a plywood piece and screw it down in the appropriate location to guide the old router) and dado out the top half of the straight Trex to forma chanel. Then rip the darker detail strips down to half thickness, heat curve them into place with glue and screws. Maybe try making those outstanding contrast details down to 4" wide instead of full width.
Then if there seems to be any weak spots, crawl underneath and use glue and screws to add patching to tak bunce out of those half lap joints
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The deck will be 24' x 35' so roughly 840 sq.ft. The leaves will be approx 12-14' wide and 16' long. I have a scaled drawing of the deck for this site, but no structural frame drawing.I really like your router and guide plan...better be careful not to run fasteners in the area to be plowed out!
Wow! cool project, but a tough one to "bid". In my previous life deck building was one of the things we did. Unless I had done tons of work with trex I don't think I would have had a good handle on coming up with an accurate "bid' for such a project.
From trex's own website they say bending boards will take considerably longer than straight configurations...and that bending railing sections is "very" difficult.
Unless you are pretty experienced with heating and bending these boards, it would be very difficult to come up with a good idea on time for this.
Is this a competitive ( I avoided those like the plague) bid you are being asked to come up with, or do you already have the job if the homeowner can justify the cost? If you already have the job perhaps T&M works but I still found that the person paying the bill wants a reasonable idea of the overall cost (just make the estimate very high). This is a unique deck project designed to impress.. so the price should also make them gasp. You just have to massage them and make them feel good about going ahead with such a "spectacular" project that will without question impress their friends.
BTW I asked some trex reps at a show about the ocean deck they advertised a couple of years ago. You know the one that is multi leveled and cantilevered over the breaking waves.
http://www.trex.com/pop.html
Well apparently it is photo shopped
Edited 6/10/2006 9:39 am ET by reinvent
First: Get $1500 from the prospect and tell them that it is going to take some time to develope a game plan and cost analysis.
Second:
The photographs in this website ("Images") are the exclusive property of Trex Company, Inc. ("Trex Company"), and are available for use only in connection with the marketing and sale of Trex Company's products and only in a manner permitted by Trex Company. For permission to use Images, please contact us at [email protected]. Trex Company retains the right to control the manner in which these Images are used by user, and may terminate user's right to use these Images at any time and for any reason. User agrees to abide by the terms set from time to time by Trex Company for the use of the Images.
Third: contact the Archie, buy plans.
Estimate:
Select the railings and determine mounting.
Determine the structural layout from deck stub blocking down to soil.
To estimate decking, overlay the plans with a 2' grid, (to scale.)
Determine how you will do layout.
Determine how you will make alll them cuts.
Figure out how long the above tasks will take times your hourly.
Add Murphy's cut.
Sam,Thank you for the detailed reply. I have already contacted Trex about using the design and getting plans, etc. Waiting for their response. What I hear from Trex will determine the nature of my meeting with the client this week. Trex could be really helpful or we could end up having to "reinvent the leaf" and switch to building huge Ginko leaves instead.Your deck framing method sounds very strong in all directions. That would be a stiff frame.With curved runs of Trex, 10 or 12" centers on the 2x6 might be good...cool plan though...do you have any pics of a frame like that?Planning from the railing down is good advice too.I'd sure like to do it, and be paid well too. Much obliged,BrianEdited 6/11/2006 9:20 am ET by basswood
Edited 6/11/2006 9:21 am ET by basswood
Trex emailed me the plans this morning (the beginning of the first business day since I made the request)--no charge. That is good service.
I meet with the HO's Friday morning at the deck site. Turns out they are event planners and hosts of parties, so the deck will be a tax write-off...Hmmm.
Thanks to everyone who posted and has helped me get in the right frame of mind for this meeting.
If I get this job, lots of high-end party guests will see my work, could be good for business.
If you get this job, you're having a party.
What time?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
If you get this job you better be posting a "Mike Smith thread" worth of pictures. And I'll be green with envy. Sell that bad mammajamma!View Image
I'll be glad to come and build that for you for $145.00 psf. That does not include railings but it does include all labor and material otherwise. You can mark up my price by any amount you see fit.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
You get the job and I would love to venture your way to take a few pics for ya. Heck, I'll even post them and bring a case of coldies to share while we plan your next plan of action. Do keep me posted.
Good Luck fella!Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
You'll take pictures...how about pouring piers...the plan has 50 piers!--and that is the easy part. I've worked on decks with 20 piers before. This whole project would be a big leap for me.
I would love to see the plans for this deck!
The deck was too pricey for these customers, so no go.I did go up to the Twin Cities to check the deck out though, just for fun. Here are some pics I took of the deck and the framing. It is done with flat 2x4 purlins 12" OC over 2x10 joists 12" OC. The flat purlin approach allows for easy flat backing blocks to be added anywhere they are needed as the leaftip frame pic shows.The deck is at the Minnesota Landscape Arboretum, a beautiful piece of state land. Trex donated the deck to the people of Minnesota...techinically...uh, I own that deck (along with 5 million other Minnesotans). So how do you like my deck?
thanks for getting back to us
the pics & the purlin approach
Same here Bass, and I'd really like to see more pics of the sub-structure if you have them.
I know you took more than 4 pics. Please can we see the rest? Or can you email them to me? Thanks
USAnigel & JoeWood,Most of the area under the deck was fenced off, but I do have a few more pics (mostly redundant I'm afraid):
Hey, thanks for the pics. I do like the flat purlin approach. It does seem so simple. One might contest of a water drainage problem, getting trapped under the deck boards. Well, not like it can rot the decking!
I would like to see that deck up close. Of course, I am a "foreigner" so I'll more n likely need a special pass. Maybe you could be my golden ticket, since I don't own any of those materials.
So, it sucks your own project was a no-go. Maybe sometime. I am curious to know how you did end up with pricing. Labor and Mats. Ballpark figures would be OK.
Have you considered the JLC live show in the cities? I actually have the green light from my dear missus. Some hefty dough, but a couple of the seminars seem pretty good.
Thanks for the post. Always a pleasure.
HookNeither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
I like the flat purlin design too--now the secret is out <g>.I'll be at JLC live, perhaps we can meet & I'd be up for another field trip out to the leaf deck (cheeseheads have to hide in the trunk to get past the guard house). ; )I ballparked it at 25K mat. and 25k labor. Layout and getting 50 piers in the right spots would take considerable time (as would every other phase).Post on the JLC live thread I started in the Fest Folder OKLater,Bass
Curious - how did they fasten the deck boards?
Thanks, Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Just with deck screws from the top--nothing special, in that regard.
Hey bass...I helped a guy do a circular deck on a large parade home that had a couple of woven courses of trex in it...looked a lot like a DNA ladder..btw...did you guys get any bad weather last night? we had golf ball sized hail and LOTS of rain here.knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
Hi Chuck,Like the sounds of the DNA deck...Man did it pour here last night! No hail though.More siding & roofin' jobs up there eh?Brian
I'm pretty sure all the details about bending are in the installation guide that you can download from the trex site.