Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2007 06:23am | #1

   Yes with stick frame.

   almost impossible with trusses

    

    

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1. 
   BossHog | Oct 15, 2007 05:30pm | #5

   "almost impossible with trusses"

   Unless you frame it down...
   Bumpersticker: As a matter of fact, I do own the road.

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 16, 2007 02:56am | #9

   OK, if he already has a high cieling that be possible, but in my moind that is dropping a soffit around the room and a trey is liftiung the cieling UO in to the attic space and cutting into cieling joists or bottom chords 

    

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2. 
   Jim_Allen | Oct 16, 2007 02:54am | #8

   Piffin, I think "almost impossible" is the wrong choice of words.

   Several times in my career, we've had to retrofit master bedroom flat  trusses with cathedral ceilings becasue of Stuperintendent error or change order. It's really not that big of a deal, depending on the truss.

   I think in most cases that I was involved in, we might have billed for an extra 8 hours or so total. That means two guys could retro fit a set of trusses in half a day in the average sized master bedroom.

   So, for me, the term "almost impossible" would sound ominous and possibly dissuade someone from seeking the actual costs.

   I would say instead, "plan on spending about $1000 minimum to cover the truss engineering and framing." That puts it into the category of a nuisance  number in my book.  It's not  deal breaker. If he can determine the company that supplied the trusses, there is a good chance that they will supply the engineering for a very low fee...maybe $200 or so.

   Edit: I'm not minimizing the hassle, only trying to quantify it. I hate doing those types of renovations.

   fka (formerly known as) blue

   Edited 10/15/2007 7:55 pm ET by Jim_Allen

   Edited 10/15/2007 7:55 pm ET by Jim_Allen

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 16, 2007 03:05am | #11

   Yeah, I really sweated over that choce of words, Jim.;)Fact is that you or I would not consider it impossible at all, given an engineering plan and we would just get down to owork and gitterdone.But I was trying to reply in the ccontext of the OP. I figure that for anyone who has to ask and has little heavy framing experience, almost impossible is almost more accurate.Really, really expensive relatively speaking is the more accuratre overall description.What it comes down to is his own self confidence, experience, and the willingness of the HOs to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to saying, "I want"The engineering is a fact of life for either option 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   user-53014 | Oct 15, 2007 06:47am | #2

   Hi Doug:
   What do u mean by tray ceiling? Do u mean coffered? (which is what I am here now looking for coffered designs).
   I am now moving onto bigger, deeper coffered ceilings in my own house (great way to snake new wiring and pex plumbing) . See Gary Katz's article in FHB #158.
   When I started to dress up my ceilings a few years back, this is what I did,--see photos attached--- I call it a "mini-coffer" (I started doing this as a way to hide the sheetrock seams when I put in a new ceiling). All I would do would be to measure the ceiling, find the center of each side and then bisect that. In the center I would place a 12"x12" square of MDF and then 3" strips of MDF along perimeter as well as centered on the chalk lines I snapped. Liquid nails (nowadays I use PL 200) and toe-nailing w/finish gun held MDF in place. After that was set I would place cove molding in each square. It was alot of tedious cuts but I think well worth it.
   I am now, like I said , following G Katz's method but I have economized his procedure (becuase I am cheap and it is in my house, not a client). I do also use wndsor one for most inside stuff now for trim (a bit more expensive than MDF but no DUST, no back-breaking carrying 100 lb. sheets, etc). W1 is my choice for interior (even made cabinet doors, face frames, wainscot. etc. with it) and Azek for all outside trim.
   If this is not what you mean by a tray ceiling, sorry to waste your time.
   Alan S

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/14/2007 11:47 pm ET by alan sullivan

3. 
   john7g | Oct 15, 2007 01:26pm | #3

   It's all 'dead' wood box, nothing structural carrying any load other than the load of the SR.  I'd start by nailing 2x4 to the wall & ceiling in the proper location then the lower corner 2x between the pieces on the walls.  Fill in with rest on 16 or 24 oc, whichever suits your fancy. 

1. 
   Doug E | Oct 15, 2007 05:15pm | #4

   I'm not talking about a coffered ceiling.  What he wants is a recessed and tiered look which will necessitate cutting into the ceiling joists.  I just don't know exactly how to frame this up.   Thanks for the replies.

1. 
   john7g | Oct 15, 2007 06:35pm | #6

   Tiered = trayed (kind of looks like the inside of a wedding cake).  In trayed ceilings built during new construction, the structural ceiling joists are above the top ceiling in the trayed area.  These joists span the whole distance from wall to wall and often form the hypoteneuse of the roof triangle.  The stepped down portion of the tray is non-structural boxing.  You're not going to be able to raise any of the ceiling without a lot of structural work & probably some engineering report for the BIs.  Cutting the ceiling joists will more than likely have an affect on the roof.  Some kind of tension component will need to be installed to make up for the cut ceiling joists. 

   The most cost effective method for getting the trayed look would be to box down under the existing ceiling.  See the pic for an example...

   1st Edit to add: You could go with collar ties if you have a stick framed roof but a lot more work than my initial idea.

   2nd Edit to correct my 1st edit: Not collar ties but rafter ties. 

   Edited 10/15/2007 11:40 am ET by john7g

   Edited 10/16/2007 7:38 am ET by john7g

   Edited 5/31/2009 8:08 am ET by john7g

2. 
   JAlden | Oct 15, 2007 08:05pm | #7

   We did a tray in our MBR last year with the help of people here. We removed a bearing wall between two rooms so the scope was a little different from yours. The added height adds a lot of visual volume to the room. I can post pictures later if you want.

   First, I would strip all of the ceiling drywall. I hope you have some latitude on the size of the tray and remaining ceiling. Remove the two existing joists that will be the borders of the tray. Replace with 2x12s or LVLs. Tie into existing structure. This is a critical step that probably needs information from others. Now you have two of the four sides.

   Measure for the other two perpendicular sides and snap a chalk line on the bottom edge of the existing joists. Temporarily support both sides and cut out the center section of existing joists. Hanger another 2x12/LVL in between the first two and hanger the cut joists to it. Repeat for other side. Now the four sides are framed.

   Set ceiling joists on top of tray. Ceiling fan in center, lights as needed.

   I made a lot of assumptions on your situation, normal size room, 2x6 joists, square sided tray, and so on. This is just a start and hopefully others who know better will be back with more information.

    

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 16, 2007 02:59am | #10

   "First, I would strip all of the ceiling drywall."Wouldn't it be better to determine first whether he has trusses or stick framed? 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   TheButcha | Oct 16, 2007 04:30am | #12

   Something like this?

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