Tricks w/ plastic electrical boxes
All,
Been a good decade since I had a large electrical home improvement project. Back then, I used metal boxes. Over the past decade, I’ve use the plastic ones here and there and not sure if I’m doing it correctly. So, wiring a guest house this holiday season and thought I’d ask a couple of questions:
1) The plastic boxes really seem to “flex” when plugging/unplugging. Is there a trick or do I just block the boxes some how?
2) These plastic box have these “tab” where the wires come it….do I knock them out or are they supposed to hold the wire in? With metal…you knock it out and use those romex connects… is the metal staple nail to the 2×4 the ‘correct’ way to secure the wire in the box?
3) Any other tips – techniques – products I should know about?
Ted
Never liked the way the box always flexed when putting plugs in and out and never understood the “legal”
Replies
You do know they still make metal boxes. If you like them better use them. I won't tell.
1. Once attached behind finish wall with plate, the plastic boxes should be fine. But yes they are flimsy when just nailed to the stud and used that way. I block 3-gang and 4-gang boxes as they never end up right (flush with the wall).
2. Tabs stay in. I punch my needlenose through them from the outside, then push the wire through until I have about 1" of sheath inside the box (code calls for 1/2" I believe).
3a. You use the good staples? GB makes stapels that are actually two small nails through a plactic hat looking thing. Much easier to drive then staples and much harder to hurt the wire. My local Lowe's sells them and I love them.
3b. You use wire stackers when running more than two wires down a stud? Keeps the wires neat and orderly and running down the middle of the stud. My local Lowe's sells them. Some inspectors don't even allow two wires under a staple.
3c. Nail plate everywhere you cross a stud or topplate! Don't blow this one off. If you are curious, take a hole where you have a wire and run a 3" drywall screw through it and tell me what you think about your wires.
3d. Don't bundle your wires together in long runs. Keep them apart somehow.
3e. Don't run more than two wires through a single hole (they heat up which destroys the insulation).
3f. Treat the wires nicely! I have a piece of wire from my remodel where the previous redneck electrician yanked some wire tight around a bend and the wire had worn down to the copper from 40 years of heating and cooling and rubbing on the corner. Thanks jerk!
3g. Always wire hot. Makes you stay on your toes. Jusk kidding.
MERC.
" Some inspectors don't even allow two wires under a staple."GB makes staples specifically to hold 2 flat cables (2+G). In metal the legs are just a little longer.In the plastic ones that you mentioned the plastic standoff is longer so it is clear that they are designed for 2 cables even after installed.
A nail up plastic box should not flex when plugging/unplugging a cord. Even a old work or cut in box should not move if properly installed.
The clips in the box are retainers for the nm cable. Just push the romex through until you have approx. 6" through the box. Strip the outer sheating back to with in 1/8-1/4" of the entry point. The clips do not substitute for fastening the wire to a stud within the code requirements (IIRC 8").
A higher end box is a also more rigid to start with. If you go to a big box, pick up each kind they offer and give them a squeez. Buy the one the flexes the least. Don't look at the price....you gets whats ya pays fer.
Dave
The following applies to the cheap blue plastice electrical boxes:
On single gang boxes, knock the square hole out with your needle nose pliers. On double gang or larger boxes, there is a "spring" connector molded into the box. You may have to coerce the connector to open enough to get the wire in the box.
I prefer the metal boxes too. The blue ones work ok, but like you said - squishy. Mostly I just like having a square box with a mud ring when I drywall. So much easier to get a nice clean cutout. The plastic ones and rotozips sometimes disagree with each other.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I hate the plastic boxes. In addition to being loose, they are always crooked. For some weird reason, the are manufactured at an angle. In addition, the tabs on the sides which are designed to hold them flush to the stud are too small.
At the risk of being laughed at here by Blue and some others, I will show you how I attach my boxes. These are premounted on a piece of scrap wood. It only takes a minute to do this and then the piece of wood is attached with a nail gun, allowing precise control in tight situations. A jig can be used to place all boxes at exactly the same height. This allows a very solid installation. In a 2X6 wall, it would be smart to use 2X4 blocks to avoid the extra thermal bridging. The climate is mild here, so it is not much of an issue. If you framed well, it is easy to cut the drywall for the boxes at just the right height. Yes, I work S - L - O - W - L - Y!
Yeah, I can see the advantage that outlet boxes will be automatically positioned at the correct height, and you don't have the problem of getting the box nails in straight in a tight situation. For less thermal bridging, you could rip the wood down to 2.5-3.0 inches. A minor problem is that switches next to doorways will be offset a bit more than "usual".Would be interesting to see how this works with the plastic box surrounds used for VB sealing.
Hey Les,
"The climate here is mild." Remind me of that in February when its 10 below here in Kansas.
I think we have only average about three or four full days below zero in the last five years. Of course, I live in the NE part.
It's about 40 degrees here today, 17 Dec.
Put on a sweater and enjoy the lower humidity!Les Barrett Quality Construction
"I think we have only average about three or four full days below zero in the last five years. Of course, I live in the NE part."Then you missed Dec of 89 when we had about 2 weeks where we where luck to have 10 for a high.That was MINUS 10.
Hey Bill, are you visiting Louisville for Christmass agian this year?
We could be enjoying some balmy 30 degree days with a little snow about then.
Made it down to 13 last night.
Dave
I am planning on it. But my sister called this morning and asked if I heard about the snow storm coming. Nothing on our news last night about any, but on the radio this morning they mentioned a major snow storm for the Ohio River area.But Weather Com does not show anything, but rain and "few" snow showers."Made it down to 13 last night."Rub it in that you live in the tropics.We 9 the night below. Typcially the cold weather comes out of Canada in the plane states and then WARMS up as it move east.Do you remember 89. On Christmas Day my newphew was called out by Middleton FD because a bunch of brand new appartments (I think that plainview) busted. And when I got back from Lousiville I had a riser to a utility basin in the garage bust, but a neighbor saw the water running under the garage door and had it shut off.There where many areas where you could drive around and see 1 house out of 4 with the ice "running" out the garage door.
One local weatherman said it was to early to call. You know the Ohio Valley...don't like the weather?.....wait a minute.
Snow on Christmass would be seasonally beautifull.
Unfortunately I am part of "plan B" for snow removal for LG&E. Our snow removal contractor bailed out on us a month ago, leaving us to patch together a team of employeees and an alternate contractor.
I freely admit to being spoiled by not doing a lot of that work over the past several years. Shoveling snow, spreading ice melt and wrestling frozen equipment around is no longer enjoyable to this nearly 58 year old body.
If you make it in, shoot me an e-mail before you leave. I am off all next week. I'll buy you a cup of coffee if you have time in your schedule.
Dave
Bill, I had just moved into a new house in Omaha in Dec 89. I remember digging a hole four feet deep in the back yard, stopping every five minutes to go in and warm up. I had promised my daughter to get the dish up and MTV working by Christmas Eve. Yes, it was cold then. I have been back here in KS since Jan 2000, and the weather seems really mild compared to the places I have lived since I left Omaha in 92 - Illinois, eastern MO, South Korea, Colorado.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Yes, it has been warm the last few years.I live on a lake it has been 5 or more years since we have had "good" ice.We still have ice, but it will snow and cust or it will warm the top melt and then refreeze and it will be too rough.When I first moved here about 25 years ago people would be ice skating in Novemember.
Les, I'm not laughing...I'm crying!
What in the world is a carpenter doing putting in electical boxes?! YOu really have to add a disclaimer when your offering electrical advice!
Also, I'm reporting you to the spotted owl preservation society. You can expect a delegation on your doorstep before Xmas.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, I'm an old man trying to build a business. I love rough-in. I am not fast, but you cannot find anyone who builds it stronger and few who can do it more precisely. I take on anything that will make a buck, within reason, like sphere, from reading his posts. i don't hav any heavy equipment, so I cannot dig the hole. Unfortunately, perhaps, I must be willing to do the rest.
I can remember just a few months ago when I said I did not want to do roofs. Well, one thing led to another. I decided to quit breaking my back hand-nailing and bought my Bostitch roofing nailer and all the other roofing stuff. Now I just do roofing if they say they want it. I don't need a license to do electrical outside of city limits here, so I do that. I don't like to do drywall, but when the HO rents the lift and just wants a little help, I have to go and do the best I can. The same goes for insulation, flooring, trim, foundations, guttering, and so on.
The good news, maybe, is this: I have been looking at every new house here in the county for about five years and identified the best builder. You can drive by his houses and see the difference, if you are a good framer. I have been getting my courage up over the last 18 months and finally went to the latest project of that builder and introduced myself and said I wanted to work for him, or with him, or whatever. We may be working together soon.
I'm very close to what you might call "My Blue Heaven". Les Barrett Quality Construction
Les, so your the guy that has been throwing me off setting cabinets or a chair rail. When I can't figure out what the hell happened to the stud the electrical box is supposedly nailed to.Scott R.
Sorry Scott, it is not me. I only do that when I am doing the whole job. Normally, I consider myself just a framer. This means the boxes get put in by somebody else. If I am doing the electrical, I am probably doing the whole job. If someone else were to hang cabinets, I would certainly let them know about my method, since I would either be the GC or let the GC know about my approach.Les Barrett Quality Construction
90% of the boxes I use are metal Raco 2-gang bracket boxes with built-in romex clamps. With the trim rings you can make them single, double, or fixture, and they are absolutely solid. Yes, they cost more than plastic. Yes, you have to attach a ground screw. Yes, I don't care about any of that. If you use the plastic ones at least get the bakelite type, which are dark brown and rigid. The blue ones are unforgiveable.
I got the advice too late on my basement project and already have the sheetrock up and plastic boxes in the wall. What are the best ways to straighten the flimsy blue boxes after the sheet rock is on? Am I hosed?
>> What are the best ways to straighten the flimsy blue boxes after the sheet rock is on?
I hate plastic boxes as well, just had about $3K electrical work done (including new 200 A service) and the guy used $0.39 boxes. Replaced a few before putting up the DW (at ~ $1.5 each , WOW).
May have missed this in the thread, so sorry if it's been addressed. When you say straighten, do you mean vertically (boxes are not plumb), or more likely that one side (say right) is deeper or shallower than the other side (left). If the latter and teh DW cutout isn't too much bigger than the box, once you attach teh receptacles (plug or switch) they have little ears top and bottom than can rest on the dw, tighten the screws that fasten the plug to teh box, which pulls the box out flush with the DW. If DW hole too big, make it smaller using FG tape and setting compound (lotta work but you asked).
If crooked vertically and not too bad, you can always attach the receptacles plumb, the screw hole are horizontal slits that allow adjustment (only a tad).
Again, sorry if too obvious and/or doesn't solve your problem.
PS: Just tought of another drastic solution. Cut the $%#&^%^ boxes out with a sawzall, be gentle pulling out wire without damaging it, replace with beefy old work boxes of your choice.
If the studs they are nailed to are mostly plumb and assuming the boxes were installed something like right the hinky aspect of the installation is an artifact of the drywall installation. I have never seen a box I couldn't remediate to a decent standard. Takes some time and care. Rework is always an art.In this case single gang boxes sticking out of the wall slightly can be drawn back in place with old-work box hanger brackets. Thin sheetmetal 'F' shaped devices that go into the wall outside the box and are drawn up tight before being bent over tight. If the box was misnailed and the box sticks out on the stud side the plastic can be chiseled or milled back some to allow the device and plate to ride correctly. Most boxes have holes that will still take the device mounting screws after some removal of plastic.If they are too deep use a plastic 'goof-ring' to cover the gap or shim the box. See below.A box that is being forced out of place by the drywall, more common with three and four gang boxes that are only supported on one end, can be relieved by using a drywall saw along the side binding. Be careful not to damage the cables while sawing. This should get it close to level. Often the drywall gets forced into place distorting the box. Removing some of the drywall will allow the plastic box to snap back into the proper position.Worse case in all situations you can remove the drywall at the point the box meets the stud. A wide blade beater screwdriver or small pry bar can ten be used to loosen the box a bit. By shimming with pieces of cedar shingles, rolled aluminum from cans or even fender washers hammered in place the box can be be leveled and made square with the drywall face. Running in a drywall screw or two at the rear of the box will tuck in the side away from the stud. Placed at the front it moves the far end out. A screw placed high or low with a shim in the middle will tilt the box for leveling.Worse case you can completely pry the box away from the stud and remount with drywall screws from inside the box. Sometimes cutting the mounting nails with a hacksaw blade, or Sawsall if your brave -watch those hidden cables -, and remounting or even replacing the box is easiest.Of course once the box is straightened or remounted some spackling will likely be needed.Fiberglass reinforced plastic, ABS and Bakelite boxes are less flexible and subject to distortion. Fiber reinforced ones are fire rated at an hour or more. The Bakelite are my favorites for non-metalic boxes. They are strong, rigid and take the mounting screws better if you use a drill or crank to put them in. Sometimes PVC boxes melt and gall at the mounting hole when the screws are driven in too quickly. A bit of spit on the threads helps.Steel boxes are good if put in correctly from jump street. They are unlikely to be distorted when the drywall goes up. On the other hand if they go in wrong, or the stud shifts when the drywall is hung, steel boxes can be more difficult to correct. You can shoot a screw into any location in a plastic box. Steel boxes have fewer options. Often it is easier to saw the nails or screws off and completely reinstall a steel box. Often an old-work box is the best replacement.Of course setting the boxes correctly before the drywall is up is a lot easier than correcting after the fact. Wonky studs, if the carpenters are contentious, can, should be, reset or adjusted. If not the electrician has to shim the box during rough-in so the face will end up flush along its length with the drywall.
Consider the 'brown' plastic boxes instead. They are much more rigid. Another bonus with those is that they do not have any prepunched holes. Better for airsealing. With the blue or metal ones, I have to apply a lot of caulk to airseal them.
Also, it's easier to drill the brown ones to accept round metal clamps if you want to come in at an alternate angle (or just prefer them).
There's a material made for soundproofing and sealing electrical boxes... it's basically thin sheets of a clay-like material, about 1/8" thick each and maybe 8" square. It molds nicely to the back of the box and around all the wire penetrations... just mush it into place. I once bought a case of it to use on a job, but for the life of me I can't remember the brand name. We used some for the soundproofing and then found a lot of other ways to use it as well, and used up the whole case.
You can also take regular electrician's putty and run it through a pasta roller.