I am about to repaint my family room. The window/door/baseboard trim is white and will remain white. How do I know if the ‘old’ paint on the trim is oil or water based paint? If it turns out that it is oil do I need to re-use oil this time? I have read many blogs here about good vs bad paint but never one that was specific to trim. What is a an excellent trim pain in your humble opinions?
Thanks – Mike
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Replies
Rub "Goof Off" in a hidden spot. If the paint comes off, it's latex. If the paint stays, it's oil.
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Thanks for all the suggestions. I am confused, however, about one fact - if its now painted with oil can I switch or do I need to forever stick to oil? This weekend I will try the test as suggested and ask more questions after I have results. Again, thanks. Mike
Zinsser "Bin" Latex primer over oil paint....
Then (opinion warning) two coats Sherwin Williams Superpaint or Duration Semi-gloss.
I actually prefer Superpaint vs Duration, but I really don't want to start a war over paint grades.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
I hear you on the war - and I do not want to start a thread on George Bush vs terrorists. In you opinion is there a significant difference between oil and latex on trim? Thanks, Mike
I prefer latex mainly for the ease of cleanup (I've used the same brushes for over 10 years but throw out roller pads). I don't see a rat's difference in the durability of oil for any of my applications.
I buy exclusively SW Superpaint or Duration mainly because I have bought from the same guys for years and really like the products.
I have applied SW A100 (contractor grade) and it seems to apply well, but the upcharge for the premium paints is so miniscule to the life-span of the finish that I just go for the higher grade.
FWIW I add Floetrol to all my paints (especially Duration 'cause it cures too fast for my poor application speed). It gives some extra time and seems help with adhesion. Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Timely post for me
Floetrol, that is apparently what I need to use. I have been having a real struggle with latex enamel drying before it self levels. Finished job looks terrible. ( My own house so I can easily take the time to fix) What proportions on the Floetrol? And do you mix it just into what is being used that day , or mix a whole gallons worth of paint at a time? Using Rhodda acrylic semi-gloss
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I mix about 4oz to the gallon with the first stirring (whole gallon). Instructions call for 8oz, but I seem to get a dilution of pigment at that ratio that I really don't prefer.
OH, and cleanup of a wet brush is much easier, also.
I truly think Floetrol is just really clean glycol... but it ain't worth the $40/gallon of paint to test it.
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Thanks, Painting isn't my strong suit so I appreciate the info.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I hate to paint, but hate bad painting worse. I touch the brushes... noone else.
Painting is art with the benefit of protecting the hard work beneath.
I wish more felt the same way.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Zinsser makes BIN, which is a shellac-based primer and they also make a few different water-based primers (one of which is called Bulls Eye Water-base, just to confuse things even further). Which primer did you mean?
Sorry... Bullseye 1-2-3. Works on both the trim and whenever painting a previously varnished surface.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Thanks for all the advice. I am willing to repaint in either oil or latex finish. The job is small and with only one window and baseboard trim to consider it will be done quickly. I just want to use the right product and insure that if it is oil I use oil and if it is latex I use that. Thanks again, Mike
I live in a historic district that has many homes that were built in the 20's to 40's. I am very concerned about lead and its long term exposure effects and at the same time wanted an easy to use and forgiving product. I have been using a product made by Muralo Paint Co. that is nothing short of astounding in it's ability to adhere directly to oil. I use it to touch up and blend to BM Impervo regularly. It may be hard to find but it is worth the time/money. We clean with mild soap and water with scotch brite pads and paint with 1-2 coats of Muralo Ultra in Semi-Gloss and are amazed at the oil like finish.
http://www.muralo.com/products/ultra-sg.html
Scott
I do some subbing for a painter when she is busy and she provides the paint. Most often SW and use their Prep-rite.When I am doing my own I often use Bulleyes 1-2-3.As far as I can tell they are the very similar..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I think your post has been hijacked. It generally is easier to continue using oil if it has been painted with oil before. Oil based paint generally can be painted over it self without much prep. If you change from oil to latex, you need to do something to improve the adhesion otherwise you will have a very fragile coat of paint that will scrape off every time it is bumped. Note, you want to make sure that you get this right as another coat of paint over a coat of paint with a bonding failure will continue to fail. Basically, there are three methods to improve the adhesion of latex over a glossy oil surface:
1) Sand lightly. Make sure you clean up all the dust before painting.
2) Use a chemical deglosser. Read the directions carefully. Most of them use solvents to soften the paint and require the new paint to be put on within a rather short time of treatment with the deglosser. Most of them have rather nasty solvent fumes too.
3) Prime with a primer designed to adhere to a glossy surface such as Bullseye 1-2-3, Bin, Kilz, Glidden Gripper (from Home Depot).If you are really fanatical, combine 1 and 3.In the past, I would have been a strong supporter of oil based paint for trim. It is very durable and levels out (no brush marks) nicely. Latex paints have been improving so they behave much better than in the past and oil based paints are not what they used to be due to environmental regulations. Do use a premium line of paint. You will be disappointed with lots of brush marks, poor hiding power, and poor durability if you choose a cheap paint.
Excellent post. And your description of how to paint over glossy trim is what I do.
I do have to wonder, however, if any of the acrylic primers are really better than the others. Glidden Gripper is a great sounding product name, but it's still just an acrylic primer. I've had very good luck with Benjamin Moore's Fresh Start and Muralo's Universal Primer, both of which are 100% acrylic.
I haven't used the Benjamin Moore or Muralo primers but if they are designed to work on glossy surfaces, they should do fine. If they can handle a glossy surface, they will not be shy in telling you.Ironically, the Gripper primer probably don't "grip" the surface any better than the other primers but is a little more heavily pigmented so it gives the appearance of better coverage and thus is more satisfying to use. That doesn't mean that it works any better, particularly when you are covering white with white as you are. It would be an advantage if you were going to undo a teenager's room that had been painted black.
I swear by BM Impervo as an oil trim paint.
I used to as well....new formula yellows WAY too fast.
You might be interested in trying SW Proclassic. Available in both oil and latex, though I've only tried the latex.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I have generally bought BM as I have an account at the store near me that gives me a discount and the manager and the staff are very nice.
This may sound stupid but the manager at the SW store said I don't buy enough paint to qualify for that type of account at his store and he was kind of a jerk to me.
While I like Duration and ProClasic I think that there is not enough difference between BM and SW to merit shopping at SW unless that is what the customer specs or it is a red paint which I admit I only shop SW for.
Edited 1/4/2008 1:35 pm ET by restorationday
SW is really trying to get their foot in the door in my neck of the woods. A carpenter by trade, I don't buy a ton of paint, so I don't qualify for any beefy discount anywhere.
But the local SW is trying so hard to make new customers, he gave me a bunch of "freebies" for opening an account along with a marginal contractors discount. He also hasn't charged me for several gallons of paint after asking if I've ever used it before.
Don't know how long it will last, but I'm enjoying the "perks" for the time being.
Satin Impervo aside, I have no reason not to use BM.....just been getting a few more requests for SW of late, and my painter has been very impressed with it. (Certainly not any cheaper)
On a personal note, I painted my daughters' room over the holidays. Needed to cover a dark blue, so I primed with their "PrepRite" sealer. Did a great job as I was finishing with a very pale green. We'll see how it holds up.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I have to agree on the Preprite...
I'll never buy another after a recent conversion.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
I used to also, for 25 years, no more.
I am aware of the problem between gallons and quarts and now only buy quarts. I know it is funny when I go in and buy 10 or 12 quarts but it works.
I'd like to use oil based paint on trim work, it flows out very nice and makes brush strokes disappear. Mostly the paint is "marine" grade, it has more UV inhibitors in it, you can touch it up after 3 years without noticing it. Basically there is no yellowing with the marine grade.
Martin
What JDRHI said. I'm in the middle of a huge problem with BM now. I really hope they do the right thing. Anything close to white I would use acrylic. Anything darker would be ok for oil. I'm told that the old Satin Impervo formulation is still available but now only in quarts (NJ). In gallons this paint is for use on metal only! WTF???! But nowhere on the can does it say not to be used on residential interior trim. I'm really disappointed with BM. Hope it doesn't come to litigation.
In gallons this paint is for use on metal only! WTF???!
As I understand it, being designated as "metal only" simply allows them to continue selling a product that no longer meets the new VOC regulations for non-metal applications. It's supposed to be the same stuff.
I rarely use oil-based paints. I don't really care about cleanup, but I find oil-based paints too difficult to apply neatly. Brushes wind up with paint oozing over the ferrule and rollers splatter. But oil does have it's advantages: better adhesion, better self-leveling and more washable, however, I think these advantages are only slight. I use Benjamin-Moore paint, but I can't comment on the yellowing since I haven't used white lately.
I've had good luck with their latex Satin Impervo which used to be the only latex trim paint that was 100% acrylic. This is what I used when painting over old oil-based trim. Of course, I would still prep the surface with a light sanding or a liquid deglosser, but adhesion over oil is never easy.
Recently, they re-formulated the Regal line of paints so now they're all 100% acrylic. I typically use semi-gloss on trim so I'll probably be using less Satin Impervo.
Don as I understand it, Gallons have a Z designation verses the old C designation,(which is still available in quarts). Trouble is BM is using the argument that I have used an "Illegal" paint on the trim of a 5000 SF house, and they bear no responsibility for poor product results. Seems to me they just want to keep making money on a product as long as they can, without having any liability. EDIT: I was told that the Z designated Satin Impervo has zinc in it so that it can be called a rust inhibitive paint, by a BM retailer. Regardless I believe it's the change in resins content that causes the severe yellowing.
Edited 1/4/2008 8:22 am ET by rlrefalo
I didn't realize they had a different formula for gallons vs quarts. I haven't purchased it in gallons.
It seems to me that if "yellowing" is the problem, then it would occur regardless of the surface to which it was applied. An argument that I imagine you've already brought to their attention.
Like you, I would also have a problem with them if their paint didn't stay white and I would be even more upset if their quarts and gallons were actually different products. There's been many times that I've realized that I will need to buy one more quart after going through 1/2 gallon.
Listen to Hackinatit. Floetrol makes latex paint flow easier when brushing and helps if spraying or rolling. I'm in a very low humidity area (semi-arid) and brushing untreated latex to "self level" is almost impossible. Keep the paint edge wet. I never use oil based anymore. Prep as advised above, paint with latex and a good brush--never go back. Tyr