The trim guy I had lined up for my new construction broke his leg very badly and is going to be out 10-12 weeks. Talked to a different trim guy yesterday about doing the job. The work on his current job looks very good and he does work for a number of the high end builders in town He doesn’t do bids though and he strictly works hourly. $40 per hour for him and one other guy. He doesn’t even like to give estimates as to how long a job will take because he says most builders keep coming up with more stuff for him to to as they go along.
If this guy works fast, hourly could be a good deal, if he is slow it could cost a bundle. So I was hoping some of the trimmers here could give me a SWAG of how long this might take and if the hourly is a workable deal.
Here is a high level of the work we will need. All trim and doors are paintgrade.
Base 5.25″ 1 piece – 800 ln ft
Window and door casing 3.25″ 1 piece – 1000 ft
Hang 20 interior prehung doors
Crown 7″ 80 ft and 5″ 320 lnt ft
Set/hang 27 ft of wall cabinets, and 30 feet of floor cabs and vanities
Set a premade fireplace mantle.
Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Dennis
Edited 12/17/2004 12:08 pm ET by DJJ
Replies
I have no idea how long this guy will take to do your job. I suspect that no one else does.
That being said I wonder if this "sub" has insurance, necessary license, pays taxes, etc. If he wants $40/hr. for two workers then I would guess the answer to the questions is "no".
So let's assume that he is running an illegitimate business, who get stuck with the bill if he gets hurt/ walks off the job/ burns the house down/ or some other mishap? I'm thinking you.
>>>"He doesn't even like to give estimates as to how long a job will take because he says most builders keep coming up with more stuff for him to to as they go along."
This tells me he doesn't know how to estimate and cannot process a change order.
>>>"If this guy works fast, hourly could be a good deal, if he is slow it could cost a bundle."
I would venture a guess that his method slants in HIS favor, not yours. Usually those who are efficient at their work prefer fixed prices because they can increase their earnings.
I really don't care what you do, but if I wanted a dependable sub and the ability to control my costs, I would look elsewhere.
Jon Blakemore
Jon,
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I wasn't trying to figure out how long it would take him to do it but rather what an average trim carpenter and helper might take to do the job. This makes it easier to get a very rough ballpark for cost compared to what I had budgeted ($8500) based on my original trim guys bid for the job.
I stopped and talked to him some more today as well the GC he is currently working for. I asked him about WC, and insurance and he has both and said he would provide me with copies of all the info if we decide to work together. The GC had nothing but great things to say about him and already has him lined up for the 7000 sq foot job he is framing now and the 4000 sq footer they are going to do after that. So I think he is on the up and up even if he doesn't charge enough (even for Iowa).
Regards,
Dennis
dennis.. sign him up and when you're done, send him to me..
you've seen his work..
you've talked to people he works for..
his got hiw ins. certificates ...
damn... what's not to like ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Heck Mike, that's me. (thought I'd beat buck to the punch)
If I quit my current boss, you looking for help?
thanks.
Sorry, don't have a helper, I'd have to come alone.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
yeah.. and you'd want the whole $40 for yourself...
c'mon downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
plus 10.
thanks.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I am a trim sub-contractor. It sounds like your guy knows what he needs to make, and his market. I hire guys like him, and have been very happy...and tell him Road Ideland's way too cold, he should come to sunny North Carolina<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
snort... tell me again ....where in NC ?
you can email me if you don't want to post it...
mfsmith1 AT cox.netMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And, this after you've been pulled how many times by the profile police?<G>Cleek my name...;-) Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Looks to me that you prequalified the guy already. Assuming the tradesman has good references $ 40.00/hour for 2 people is a steal. If he is not insured I would buy the insurance for him. You pay him every Friday so you got your value you pay for and you can calculate the overall volume yourself. Seems to me the guy has some experience and not bidding the job could mean he knows what he is doing. If he works for high end builders he most likely is insured. Here in Boulder you would pay $45.00-$55.00 per hour, per person.
I second the motion that this rate is a steal. I have mr. perfection doing my siding and boxing and he is $35 for him + $30 for each man (usually just him and another). He too wouldn't bid the job, just T&M (really just T since I'm providing M). If this guy is truly good, I would hire him and not even worry about it. It's going to cost what it's going to cost and the work will be nice, just enjoy it and find someway to pay the guy.
MERC.
Make sure you clearly understand whether he's saying $40/hour for two people ($20/person-hour), or $40/hour/person ($80 for each hour worked by the pair).
I've heard this one before (i.e. the builders keep coming up with more work than originally contratect for, therefore, I can't bid yoru job) ... The guy should be able to bid the job you are asking him to do. If he can't then find someone who can. As for me, I would likely not hire hourly unless I was real sure that the guy was ultra trustworthy.
Regards,
Roger <>< (owner/builder in NC)
I think discounting someone because they wont bid a job(only work time and material) would keep you from getting some of the best workers out there.
I'm from Iowa and probably one of the best builders in the Cedar Rapids area does not, will not, give a bid, wont give an estimate to how long it will take either.
He is busy, doesn't have to go looking for work, and everything he does is top notch. He is very much in demand.
I've been in some of his 4 to 5 million dollar homes, there nothing short of spectacular. He didn't give a bid on any part of them. And the owners are very pleased with his work and him.
Doug
I've been in some of his 4 to 5 million dollar homes, there nothing short of spectacular. He didn't give a bid on any part of them. And the owners are very pleased with his work and him.
My only question along that line would be " how was financing secured without some hard numbers to use?"
Guess I don't do the financing, and neither do you!
I'll stand behind what I'm saying. Maybe when you got 40 or 50 mil you don't have to go through the same channels as some.
Doug
I don't doubt what your saying. I know several builders who make the same claim. I'm just curious about how the financing is secured with no rough Idea of cost.
Robert
I really don't know the answer to that, they don't invite me to many of those meetings. :)
I just know that this guy has a reputation that cant be beat. His word is better than any contract, people love him.
Doug
Yeah,
Sometime ago I did a fair amount of work for a builder like that. everything ended up costing more than the customer thought and I've always wondered how he got a reputation that let him get away with that.
The financing can be secured in different ways depending on the money down. The sqft price upon completion and the pre-appraisal has to be within a local range and neighborhood. If they are way off with their pricing they will need more money down or other values to secure the financing. I had several customers who did their own financing.....they had the money, as simple as that.
Someone tell me how this guy has any $ left after insurance??
FWIW DJJ, I spec'd your job at 8.5k off the top of my head, around 15 days. Labor only.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric
I imagine that the insurance in Ia. is considerably lower than that of NY.
When I was a sub in Ia. I paid about $500 a year for a mill in liability.
Doug
Dennis: I usually bid a house by the square foot, extras are things like ceiling crown, built- in cabinets, highly detailed closets. There are lots of variables some trim takes longer because of the size 5" base is harder to do than 2 1/4" ect.
I work alone it takes me about 100 to 120 hours to trim out a 3000-3500 square foot house plus install cabs. That number can vary greatly with the amount of detail in the cabs and trim. So it is hard to lump it into a general catagory. From the info you gave I would say a trim bill of $4500- 6500 would not be out of line, but it is hard to really say going on that info.
Just don't tell the guy you have a budget of $8500, or you will get the " Oh yea I think it will be close but I should be able to do it for that".
Ok some posts happened while I was typing, I must not be charging enough?
2500sqft that is small for the houses I have been doing, no offense. So 3 weeks sounds very doable even with one guy. I can fly out for $300, I'll do it fo $7K seeing how I'm between jobs. Going to be tough packing all my tools though. Well good luck, hope it all works out. Jeff
Edited 12/17/2004 9:54 pm ET by JEFFWOODWORK
I'm just curious about how the financing is secured with no rough Idea of cost.
Well , thats my problem, unless it doesnt matter.
I bet the builders he works for know . Ill bet its cheaper is why they do it . I know builders and they like it going their way on the balance pole.
Tim Mooney
Seems to me that someone might not want to bid because they aren't very good at estimating. Another ADHD trait.
DJJ,
For a long time I worked with and for people who never gave an estimate. We did a certain quality of work, builders and GC's knew our pace, and they got what they wanted.
That being said I must offer this caution. From the size of your trim package it does not appera as if you are building a huge house. Nice size but not huge. How do the houses he's doing now compare with the one your building? The reason I ask? It is much easier to discount spending $3000 more than you thought you would on a $ 2,000,000 house than it is on a $400,000 house. $3K is a bigger percentage of $400K than it is of $2M.
as for how long? In my prime when I was trimming everyday I used to work with a partner. Excluding the cabinets we would do that package in four days if we screwed around during those four days. just two of us.
$1 a ft for the baseboard
$45 a door hung and cased
$35 a window Stool apron and casing.
$2 ft for the big crown
$1.25 for the small stuff.
unless you stop by and check the progress this guy is making or he is willing to give you an " It won't take any longer than X" type estimate I would be reluctant.
Robert,
Thanks for the reply. The house I am doing about 2500 square feet. 2000 main floor and 500 ft bonus room over the garage. The job the trimmer is working on now is about 2500 sq ft, and will probably sell for about $325-350k. Mine should be about $325k.
Looks like you are faster (and cheaper) then the guys here. Want to come to balmy Iowa in about 6 weeks :) My first bid from the trimmer who broke his leg was about $7200 and he thought it would take about 3 weeks to do. Not sure if this was by himself or not. The 'by the hour' guy said today a very rough guess was 3 weeks. So even if it took him a month it would still be cheaper than my other bid.
As for watching the guy's progress, I go to the site every day, except the day when my framers did the cornices with no brick pocket but that is another thread :)
Thanks for the numbers and times. I appreciate it.
Happy holidays
Dennis
Around these parts a house like that would need to be wrapped up in a week. Too many illegals and cutthroats for it to be otherwise.
When I first started out a friend and I used to trim 1800sqft colonials. around 20 doors, 14 windows, base, and crown in at least three rooms. We would start at 7 am saturday and walk away 7 am sunday. One a week for months.
For really big stuff or high end stuff you can double or triple those prices. Of course those are aroind three years old. I've not done anything in that long and probably haven't kept pace with inflation.
Also note, I did not include the Cabinets.
Maybe I missed something because if it's $40 per hour per man he would be hitting you up for $3200 per week. So a month and your over budget. as a matter of fact, three weeks and your over budget.
If he's charging $20 per hour per man I'm not sure why he doesn't just work at home depot.
Robert,
Our Home Depot pays about 8 bucks an hour. :)
Nope it is $20 per hour per man or $1600 per week. I asked him about the rate and he said that he knows some guys in town are charging $30-35 per hour/man but that is crazy (his words not mine). Hey, as long as he is happy...
Regards,
Dennis
Our Home Depot pays about 8 bucks an hour. :)
And after expense he making about $10 an hour. Hell, if you are happy with his work, By all means. $20 an hour? man, just hope he doesn't hear of a guy named Jerald Hayes between now and the time he starts your job.
Robert
Your trying to compare your cost of living with that of an entirely different place, cant be done.
You don't have info on your profile, have to talk to rez about that, I think your somewhere out east?
I worked for a place 70 miles away from where Dennis is and my boss got $45 an hr for us, but we were not trimming out 3 to 400,000 dollar homes. And there was only one shop like ours within 150 miles.
I was trimming track homes 60 miles away from the area mentioned. This was back about 5 to 6 years ago. I think we were probably getting about 20 to 22 and hr. That was considered decent for the area. I was happy with it, just not happy doing track homes. I don't think pay has gone up that much in the time elapsed.
Doug
Doug,Were you getting $20-22 as an employee or a sub? I think no matter where you live, a $20/hr. billing rate is dirt cheap.
Jon Blakemore
I have just two things two say/ ask.
1. How can you guys give a trim estimate from just the lineal ft. that that has been given you? No one knows how many corners and such there are to deal with. How cut up is the house??
2. At $20/hr per man how does this guy make any money? So he's down to $10 -15/ hr per man after over head. And this is only his billable hours. Lets add in paper work time, site visit time, tool maint repair time, etc. and he'd probably be making more working at Home Depot. Cost of living cant be that cheap where ever he is living ( at least in the U.S.).
Or am I missing something???
-m2akita
My thanks to all who replied. I appreciate all your input. I wasn't looking for any hard numbers, especially since I didn't include info about number of copes, miters, inside/outside corners etc. Just trying to get a very high level SWAG for the time to do a job like this to help me compare to my fixed price bid.
Also sorry to start up a minor firestorm about this guys rates. He charges what he feels is the proper rate for his work for our area. Based on his rates, and the rough amount of time he thinks it will take him for the job his bill still comes out to within 15% of my fixed bid
Thanks!
Happy holidays to everyone!
Dennis
As a sub.
I agree that 20 to 22 is cheap, I doubt that there are many subs down here in TX that are making that much. Especially when their trimming for less then a buck a sq. We were getting $1.20 give or take.
Subbing for any track builder is no way to get rich!
I went from averaging in the neighborhood of 20 to 22 as a sub, doing track homes, to earning 18 as an employee, with benefits, vacation, 401, paid holidays, obviously the later was the better deal, not to mention we were working in million dollar homes.
when we built a fire place mantle we were allowed to bill 12 hrs time. Some of the trim crew would build one in 8 hrs, always looked like it to, I on the other hand took probably 16 hrs. It was the only place you could do something neat. Still only got 12 hrs pay though. Had to make it up someplace else.
The billable hrs were based on what carp scale was. I think that was somewhere in the area of 20-22.
I'm not arguing that 20 an hr is great money, we all know that its not. I'm saying that you cant compare what someone in NY gets to what someone in Iowa gets.
I dont know what this particular carp needs for his time, hell if he's happy and does good work what the hell is the problem.
Doug
wheres Blodgett in this, I thought he was the FHB contributor for trim, great guy
any way, around this neck of the woods. 1.5 per square is normal for a goodin' of course thats labor only
thers lots of hacks out there who think "tub and tile" is a piece of trim
hired a low bid trim guy. did ok. burned me up on materilas. later found out from remodel-owner that trim guy was messing up a lot and would put the mistakes in his truck under a tarp.
painted trim, etc , here is an old ditty taught to me by an old dog
tub and tile ( a great tube squeeze paintable caulking)
" carpenter carpenter
do your best
tub and tile
do the rest"
isa..
i had
a guy trimming for me..
i walked in on him cutting up all his mistakes on a chop saw so he could hide them in the trash barrel
bye - bye Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Whaddya think ate at you the most.... the mistakes or the deceit? I've got a real problem with shady dudes.... I can handle screw-ups much better.
i never mind mistakes .. if i did , i'd hate myself and fire me
he just didn't get it....
i can fix most anything.. but i can't fix mistrust.. obviously, he didn't trust me.. so i couldn't trust himMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore