I’m going to start fixing up my front stoop this weekend. It’s basically a covered concrete stoop with two 4×4 posts. The posts are currently wrapped in aluminum. The white aluminum is very faded to the point where it’s more grey than white.
I want to trim out the posts. I was thinking:
- tear off aluminum
- since 4×4 is quite “skinny”, wrap some mitered 8 ft boards around the posts to build up the girth
- trim with same base moulding (routed on router table), and other trim on the top
I was looking at my lumber yard yesterday and saw some “exterior” grade composite material. It didn’t seem too dense though. Even though it’s composite, I’m wondering how well it would hold up to NJ rain and snow seasons.
I’ve looked at the Azek stuff but it seems the skills required to work with and install it might be beyond my DIY’er skills (based on comments here on Breaktime.)
The other choice would be to get some pressure treated wood, miter the sides on my tablesaw, and then biscuit join it together. Then I would oil prime and latex paint it white.
Anyone have any other suggestions for a maintenance free material (white is fine since that is the desired end color)? It has to route and cut easily.
Thanks in advanced.
Replies
I did some PVC post covers from Outwater - looked pretty good (I also helped put up some of their aluminum columns c/w the fancy tops for a restaurant refurb - expensive, but REALLY nice)
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I am about to finish a porch in Canada and have settled on Miratec (a wood composite). I got a quote from a local yard and the price was about the same as pine (most people around here use pine for trim).
Can't tell you much more about it other than the web site for the manufacturer which is http://www.craftmasterdoordesigns.com/pageBuild.asp?PageID=A_product_m&UserID=A
do not even think about bevelling and biscuting PT for a wrap..it does NOT work..at all.
If you must wrap with PT ( or anything else) much better to plow a pair of dados and box it that way. You can leave a reveal of say an eighth inch..call it a shadow line.
Tongue and groove, rabbet and dado, even flush butt joints..are better options than the mitre.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Are you saying that a mitred corner for the wrap is a bad idea? How about a but joint with biscuits for those who don't like the idea of a reveal?
A butt will stay looking good ( if it did) a lot longer than a miter.
A rabbeted butt is even better, if ya have 3/4 stock, rabbet away 3/8ths..controls the movement to one direction.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Why is the miter bad? Is it because of the shrinkage/expansion that would occur?
My first plan was to butt joint the pieces and use biscuits for alignment. I would then apply glue all the way down the joint. Then I thought I would do mitered corners to have a cleaner joint line.
I got the idea from an article on outdoor trim details in an issue of FHB. The author had mitered a bunch of porch post base moldings and was demonstrating how to miter, properly glue, and caulk the joints (using caulk saver foam.)
yes, repeated shrinking and swelling, and the fact that unless the stock is re-milled precisly, an accurate miter ( glue line quality) is very difficult to achieve.
On the base moulding you are not dealing with such a long joint, an it usually can be better controlled.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Another reason trim can be mitered is because you are usually mitering the ends, and expansion/contraction is usually not much of an issue with wood length-wise. (Though you still see outside miters open up on some trim after a while. I use epoxy to try and prevent this.)
I never met a tool I didn't like!
You could make the covers about twice the size of your 4x4 . Abutt joint on large pillars is common ,as in arts and crafts style . I think it looks good in the larger sizes of pillars.
You don't need to restrict your choices to only composite materials, if you remember that moisture wicking up from the bottom is one of the biggest causes of rot. Keep an air gap between the bottom of the trim and the concrete, and the trim will last longer.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
How much of a gap? 1/8", 1/4"? I was thinking 1/8 might not be enough but would 1/4 be too unsightly?
Thanks,
Thang
I would use 1/4" , but even 1/8" would allow some drainage and air circulation.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
right on.
almost all miters will open sooner or later, unless it's not wood.
once the post starts moving it don't matter what the base wrap is made of
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I've looked at the Azek stuff but it seems the skills required to work with and install it might be beyond my DIY'er skills (based on comments here on Breaktime.)
Stuff cuts like butter, costs like gold though.
Joe H
1/2" MDO ,about $45.00 per sheet , primed is a good material for wrapping porch posts. Where in NJ do you live? If you are within easy driving distance of Margate I can show you a porch I did two years ago. 8" square column covers, cove at top of column where it meets the beam, 1/2" 1/2 round molding around column 12" down from top. Then the bottom has a large cove where it meets the deck. This was for my daughter, An architect drew the plans ( oldest son).You will not need any special skills to do this.
mike
Mike,
I'm in Hackettstown. It's northwest Jersey (exit 19 off of Rt 80 west). I've never heard of Margate...but then again, I'm not one to rely on geography.
I'm going to take a look at the composite stuff too. It seems that the MDO is going to be more affordable as well.
If you have pictures, I'd still love to see them.
Thanks,
Thang
thang,
If your skilled enough to use a router then your certainly skilled enough to use Azek, nothing hard about wrapping a post with Azek, Just besure to use stainless steel fasteners,and when it comes time to wrap a second peice of stock around the base run that through your router with a nicely detailed bit. When you connect your miters make sure you have the pvc glu that is recommended by azek it`s very simple to use common sence all thats needed there.....So please reconsider the Azek if you want something that every one is going to absolutely love yet will last you years and years with out any maintenance....
Shavey
Shavey,
That's good to know. After reading the posts on Azek again, it seems that it was difficult to work with due to its "wobbliness" more than anything.
Koma is what my local lumber yard sells. I'll check the stuff out again today sometime. Right now (since I know it mills fine), cost may be the inhibiting factor.
Thanks,
Thang
Thang:
I'm in Whitehouse Station (Readington) and I bought my Koma at Fox lumber in Clinton. If you feel like taking a drive, you are welcome to see my posts and I can give you some scrap Koma to play with.
J Painter
What's your address? You can email me privately at [email protected] if you want.
I'll get directions to see how far it is (like I said, I'm horrible with geography).
Thanks again,
Thang
Shavey:
I'm with you. I just wrapped all the 4x4s on my current deck project with Koma (which is an Azek clone). I cut the 45 miters on my table saw, and glued them with Azek glue. I pinned the joints with stainless brads until the glue set up. The miters are dead on and tight. I've had them up through the last 3 or 4 weeks in hot and now wet NJ weather with no problems, even though the column caps are not yet installed and the PT posts inside are being subjected to alternating rain and sun.
The Azek does machine better than the Koma. Both cut easily, although the dust and chips are annoying. Wear goggles. It paints easily, although I would be wary of a dark color.
J Painter
Jpainter ,
That looks like a real nice job there, did you miter the posts also or are they lapped, what ever the case may be your attention to detail really stands out and should make you proud!!! I have only used Azek with a handful of customers and i assure you no one had any complaints but plenty of compliments.....
Shavey:
Yes, both the main post and the trim at the bottom are mitered. The key is that the PVC glue really creates a single structure because it melts the mating surfaces together. I left space for expansion and contraction between the 4x4 and the Koma too. I'll be putting up the first of the cedar railing (painted) this weekend.
J Painter
John,
Does the PVC glue dry clear? What about squeeze out? Can you wipe it down with a wet towel or do you have to wait till it's dry to remove it?
How did you leave space between the 4x4 and the Koma? Shims?
Thanks,
Thang
Thang:
Well, ironically, I used Azek brand PVC glue even though I was working with Koma brand trim. That's just what Fox Lumber in Clinton happened to have. Anyway, the glue works kind of the same way that regular PVC cement works on pipe-- it fuses or melts the two surfaces together. However, the Azek glue is not as stinky, it has a little longer open time, and it is UV stabilized so that it will not yellow over time. It dries the same color as the Koma or Azek material. The squeeze out (which is minimal) can be wiped with a dry rag as you assemble. Couldn't be easier. You can sand it if you need to.
I shimmed out the 4x4 structural posts with 1/2 inch PT plywood spacers only where the railings will attach. Once the Koma mitered sides were glued, they acted as a single unit and there was no flexing. The shims allowed me to adjust for plumb on the somewhat twisted and curved PT 4x4s, and I hope they will allow the Koma box to move with temperature changes without really binding. I just lowered the shop-built box over the 4x4s and nailed. On the stairs the Koma box could not be done this way, so I built two right-angle sides and put them together on either side of the 4x4s. This is the method you would have to use for your porch posts. Another option would be to shop-build three sides of the box and glue the final side when it is in place.
J Painter
Thanks for the info.
It's good to know it's like working with PVC pipe cement. I have experience with that.
I'll probably build up 3 sides first and then assemble the 4th side in place. I don't think I'll be mitering my corners though. My tablesaw (cheap Craftsman) doesn't really have a stable or accurate fence. I'll probably butt and biscuit the joints along with the PVC glue. The biscuits will be more for ease of alignment than for strength.