Troubleshoot breaker tripping.
tuolumne7
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I flipped on a breaker for the first time in the house I’m building and it immediately popped. It is a 20 GFCI breaker (square D homeline) feeding 2 outdoor receptacles and 2 receptacles in the basement shop. I checked an outlet and no dead short shows up there. Where do I look next. If there were a short in the circuit somewhere I would see it at all of the outlets right?
Replies
check for continuity between all of the fixtures and outlets this circuit serves.
you may not see the short at all of the outlets, it is possible some downstream are completely disconnected.
if you have continuity between everything on that run, it must be somewhere between the box and the first outlet/fixture it serves, start at the box abnd work your way back.
Can you tell if it tripped because of a ground fault or a circuit fault.
Replace it with a regular breaker for testing.
If it does not trip then you don't have a short on t he hot (to either ground or neutral). But rather a ground fault. You can get that if if the neutral is connected to the ground or to another neutral.
But the first think is to make sure that you wired the GFCI breaker correctly.
The hot and NEUTRAL both connect to the breaker. The neutral to the load does not connect to the neutral bus. And the breaker has a pigtail that goes to the neutral bus.
Also what method was used for the wiring, NM (Romex), armoured cable, conduit and wire?
And go to the first box that is feed from the panel. Disconnect the downstream loads. Does it work then?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ah, I'll swap the breaker out and see what happens. No matter what I'm seeing continuity from ground to neutral because they're connected back at the panel. I had a circuit once (multgang lights) where the ground was touching an adjacent hot when I pushed them into the box. I did not think this possible in single gangs, but I could have a ground touching the neutral if it did not get pushed back enough. Are you saying that would cause the GFCI breaker to go? I did not do a visual on the two outdoor receptacles yet, so I'll look in there first.
"I could have a ground touching the neutral if it did not get pushed back enough. Are you saying that would cause the GFCI breaker to go? "Yes.Also a load that connects to the neutral of a different circuit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I have a similar situation.
I lived in a house for 6 years ... newly wired. Everything was fine. Suddenly the kitchen GFCI breaker tripped 'for no reason' (yeah, I know there was a reason ... I just don't know that that reason might be).
No electrical system changes. Nothing odd. Do I start by checking all the outlets w/ my GFCI 'thingy'/testor? I unplugged everything. on the circuit. I don't know anything really about that circuit (e.g. does it serve more than the outlets?). It does serve wire mold outlets ... maybe that has something to do w/ it?
Any thoughts?
The kitchen small appliance circuit can not only supply the countertop receptqcles, but also the refigerator and gas stove. But it can also serve any receptacles in the pantry and dinning room. And in "regular" wall receptacles in the kitchen.Now it is not clear if this is a continuing problem or if was a onetime thing.If a one time thing them possibly and insect or mouse or something got inside on of the boxes.If this is continous then probably some insulation on the wiring has a small cut on it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Don't forget about outdoor receptacles. Our bathroom outlets would always go out after a bad rainstorm, due to the outdoor receptacle (that's now covered by a covered deck).
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
"Don't forget about outdoor receptacles. "Unlikely in this case.If this was any place other than a kitchen I would have made such a suggestion.Kitchens have long required dedicated small appliance circuits. And the requirements for GFCI in kitchens are relatively new.And this is a 6 YO house so less likely to have "interesting improvements". While not likely it would not be unknown for the builder to find circuit with a nail in it to say the deck and tap on a "convient" circuit to supply it.The early applications for GFCI's where bathrooms and exterior. And bathrooms used to not require dedicated circuits.So it was common to share them. And garages and basements as those where added to the GFCI requirements..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
On going problem. Hasn't worked since. I'll have to get Mr. Thingy out and do some checking.
If a cut on a wire ... am I screwed? or are you meaning e.g. the ends of the wire in the panel and/or boxes? The frig isn't on it and neither is the gas stove ... they are fine, so that eliminates those. Will have to check the dining room, but I think they are OK, too ... had the stereo in there, I think at one time.
thanks much for the tips ... helps to have another/fresh point of view. My brain is usually too full to think of what is obvious to others.
The 3 - light GFCI/receptacle tester really will only show you if the receptacel is getting power at tht time.While a cable could be compromised by an overdriving stape or a nail into it I was thinking more about wire insulation that had been nicked when the sheathing was removed or maybe crushed when the receptacle is pushed into the box.No good way to find some thing like this.Electricans have a Megger which might or might not show which cable has impared insulation..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Duh ... right ... can't test w/out power in the circuit and when I reset the breaker, it just trips again.
Back to thinkin' again. Dang.
Remove the gfci and cap the wires. Reset the breaker, if it still trips then the problem is else where. If no more tripping then install a known good gfci and try again.
I think you got that backwards.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
I think you got that backwards.
What do you think he got backwards? If he removes the GFCI and the problem remains, that suggests the problem is elsewhere rather than a bad GFCI.
I would only "cap" the wires to stop people touching them. My intention is to take the GFCI out of the circuit to make sure it is/is not the problem.
I am with DanH.
Problem is possibly with a GFCI breaker (see OP). If one were to remove the GFCI breaker and "cap the wires" there would not be any power source for the entire circuit
....... and no breaker to trip since the circuit in question would be totally disconnected - hot and neutral since they both connect to the breaker.
Did I miss sumpthin?
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
The OP needs to check the wiring and if needed remove sockets until the problem is found. Neutral and live need to be balanced to prevent a GFCI from tripping because thats how they work.
My reply was to another poster hence the confusion.
>>My reply was to another poster hence the confusion. <<
Roger, out.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
But I understood Mr. Nigel to say that the GFI OUTLET was what should be 'capped' and I thought he meant 'tie the wires together ... eliminate the GFI from the circuit.
Unfortunately ... Mine is a GFI breaker ... so maybe I should replace w/ normal breaker to begin my investigation. Using a GFI breaker ... is there a difference in the ground fault trip and a short circuit trip? i.e. do they respond the same way?
I apologize ... I butted into the conversation w/ my own question and maybe caused some confusion. I apologize to all and in particular to the original poster.
Edited 7/10/2008 2:21 am ET by Clewless1
I think what he meant was to pull the GFCI and take it out of the circuit. If there are fixtures downstream, you'd need to patch the power through to them by connecting the "Line" wires to the "Load" wires (and, presumably, capping the splices) so you can check the whole circuit. If you take out the GFCI and the circuit still pops, you got issues in the circuit somewhere. Start taking other stuff offline until you find it. If it doesn't pop, there's a neutral/equipment ground fault or a freaky GFCI.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
See 106690.18 - re: 2nd poster involved.
My point was if the OP, 106690.1, is dealing with a GFCI breaker and it was removed from the circuit - there would no longer be a live circuit, just a bunch of unenergized wire connected to an assortment of devices all of which are downstream of the GFCI device (breaker referenced in 90.1).
Continuity testing could provide valuble information at this point - i.e., if there is continuity between hot and neutral, hot and ground or neutral and ground it would give you a hint as to what to look for in the individual boxes. Make sure to remove any / all of those pesky light bulbs before attempting continuity testing (don't ask how I know that).
With a GFCI breaker removed, there are no line / load wires to connect together - just the load wires dangling in the service panel.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I thought DanH was replying to the other poster who was having trouble with a GFCI recepticle in his kitchen.
Now I'm ALL misconfabulated!
Sheesh! Call an electrician! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Who?
Mike Hennesey's Electric Inc?!
That's OK, I may feel the need ... I hate shelling out a couple hundred clams to watch him do something soooo simple ... I could have done it myselt ... 'guess the education is sometimes worth it eh?!
"Mike Hennesey's Electric Inc?!"
Nope, not me. I don't even play an electrician on TV!
And it only looks simple if you know what you're doing. It's the know-how you're payin' for, not the manual labor.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Problem is possibly with a GFCI breaker (see OP). If one were to remove the GFCI breaker and "cap the wires" there would not be any power source for the entire circuit
....... and no breaker to trip since the circuit in question would be totally disconnected - hot and neutral since they both connect to the breaker.
Did I miss sumpthin?
No, you didn't miss something, I did - I didn't go back to the OP but rather responded to another poster's post - and thus perpetuated the confusion concerning the GFCI vs a GFCI breaker.
Now that I reread the OP's message and see that it is a GFCI breaker, it makes sense.
Sorry, my bad.
Edited 7/10/2008 7:35 am ET by woodturner9
You've still got it backwards. Disconnect the load (both wires) from the breaker and if the breaker still trips it's a defective breaker. If not then the problem is likely downstream.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Hi Dan my reply was to 106690.6 , not to the "GFCI breaker" in the very first post.