Does $11.70 per squre foot sound like a reasonable price, including labor, materials, design and a nice 2 year warranty?
Tell me what you think.
L
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Replies
no way, hey
what's the background on that one ?
So-- you smell a rat already? Patience Grasshopper, all will be revealed.
Mike, I've changed my ways. If those two greasy guys in the station wagon can do it for $13 psf, then my guys should be able to do it for $10 in red cedar with 2x6 decking and give a 5 year warranty.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Not for me, what's up?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
no.
How you been?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hey Calvin! Is all going well--teaching my 4 year old to skate, looks like he'll be playing hockey next year!
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I'll bite.
Yes. It sounds reasonable. What do I get for my money?
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I would sub it to you for that. My numbers are usually double that.
It wasn't always that high but the money for the right hardware compatible with ACQ isn't cheap.
What are you doing?
Trying to pick a fight or start an arguement?
View Image
Hi Jerrald-- Aren't you in Ottawa? Was there yesterday.
Yes... was picking a fight, but it was couple of days ago with a big corporation.
Hey... I'm back in a couple of weeks, lets do coffee?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I'm not sure I even know where Ottawa. It's gotta be some where in Canada since I know they have a hockey team.Maybe you're confusining Ottawa with Katonah?
View Image
I grew up in Ottawa and I've been to Katonah, you couldn't confuse the two. And yes they have a hockey team (currently 5th in the Eastern Conference).
I'll pay you that to build mine---- I want the decking made out of IPE with EbTy fasteners. I want a Jatoba railing & posts with glass inserts.
Not trying to be a smart azz, but deck prices vary with location, material & site conditions.
“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.†—James Madison
plumb... i'd bet 10 dog biscuits, lawrence is going to come up with a low-cost deck solution for a price-leader, foot-in-the-door, win-win...
he's not the sharpest tack in the box, but real close to it, and makes up in perseverence what he lacks in genius
( did that sound like a compliment ? )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'll chime in at 25$ a square foot, last falls price...I don't feel safe in this world no more I don't want to die in a nuclear war I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
You sure know how to complement 'em. Snorted up a little coffee laughing at your post.
Im real curious what Lawrence has come up with.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
You are just too kind Mike-- In fact I found a great product and they ran out of money. They were making building products out of recycled carpet fiber. Rock hard and the decking would have had to be about 1/2" thick. Nylon doesn't absorb water and it doesn't rot. <!----><!----><!---->
There's another great product coming down the pipe--virgin vinyl that goes through a special process without additives that will be twice as strong and half the weight... that has promise.<!----><!---->
Keep scrolling, someone found what I was talking about on my blog.<!----><!---->
Had a guy named Bud Bootier of "Pure Strategy" (Market Research Firm) who came up with the $11.70/sf, materials and labor cost for wood decks, work me over regarding the cost of decks. He thought it astounding I actually build decks from wood that retail over $100/sf.<!----><!---->
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Thats how I think he got to attack this beast Mike. Under certain circumstances that might very well be a profitable deck.
That last time I ran that exercise, I proved to my lead carpenter that he had to finish the deck that day. Before I showed him the numbers and showed him how his labor was calcuated, he thought he could work on the thing for quite a few days more.
You take the optimum deck size and the parts can be processed quite nicely, by hand in a shop. I could supply hand finished deckboard kits for 12 per square foot and deliver them like icecream cones.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Have you seen Lawrence's website?Nice stuff
Barry E-Remodeler
No, but I thought he had too open ended of a question along the lines of square foot price that I have seen here too many times.
I couldn't even touch a deck around here for that price he listed & still put food on the table for my family.
The original question didn't give any specifics of material, site conditions, or market area.
I'm not doubtig his skills or finished product, I was just being a smart azz with the lack of info.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.†—James Madison
Tha last one I did cost almost that much for the materials.
Isn't that what RONA (and possibly Home Depot) is charging?
I'm not sure that it includes a railing.
Watching guys put up decks for home builders in Ontario, I'd be surprised if they charge that much.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
In Fact Tim, HD takes about 13% plus markup on Materials which they sell you to build their decks. I know someone who does work for them.. says he sells 1 in 10 of their leads. Lots of running for little money.
The progam is inflationary. HD was giving out marketing on behalf of Eon that told clients that they should expect to pay between 10 and 15$ per foot installed for decking.
That is what I was leaning on Eon to do--and in their better judgement they have agreed to strip the old marketing out of the stores.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Hi Lawrence,
How are ya?
I'm curious to where you're going with it too but for kicks I'll add...
We just built one using composite decking with handrail and such and it was a unique design at $35 per sq foot. Got the job, the customer loves it.
Then quoted the exact same material on less complex ones but larger at the same price for two other folks and each told me we were wayyy too high, they new someone to do it for $20. per sq ft. Those were of course unlicensed guys but homeowners never care until the job goes sour.
Not in this neck of the woods, sorry. Minimum of about $25/ft on the the most simple and basic deck, and the average is in the middle to upper thirtys. Had one last year that topped out at $65 a foot, though.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Does $11.70 per squre foot sound like a reasonable price, including labor, materials, design and a nice 2 year warranty?
Tell me what you think.
What do I think ? Hmmmm, If you could steal all of the materials, and build it after hours.... ya might be able to break even.
What materials are spec'd? ACQ? Cedar? Comp? Ipe?
Our pricing: $20-$25/ft for cedar, $30-$35/ft for composite. Depending on design and deck height,etc.
Wont build a deck with ACQ. Nothing but complaints and nobody wants to hear that the material is the problem. If you are thinking about offering a 2 year warranty on an ACQ deck, plan on working for free.....
what are building the structure out of (framing)?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Cedar usually, If not we will use PT on rare occasions. I had some really bad experiances with PT and I am not rational about it....=)
Nah, I wouldn't pay a penny over $11.65.
(Actually, the one I built about 18 years ago figures out to $28/sf just for materials.)
Nice to see all you guys again--I've been a little busy creating tools to help our guys have their best year ever and setting up new guys. I've been learning alot and enjoying life. Sorry I haven't been around much--it's not because I'm not fond of everyone here.
I've also been working on that blog quite a bit, trying out ideas and teaching myself to write at the same time.
Anyhow, I did an estimate (training for a new guy), and after a puzzeling hour and a half trying to get a client to tell me their budget and having him refuse, he flips this brochure on the table. Immedietly I pulled out the SLR digital and took a shot of it.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_QtTqgcOgRQ0/RdxYMjd7JWI/AAAAAAAAAHM/BDjL0213LTc/s400/eon-1.jpg
http://bp2.blogger.com/_QtTqgcOgRQ0/RdxYMTd7JVI/AAAAAAAAAHE/XgBSmarRpTE/s400/eon-2.jpg
Yup. 288 SQ' deck, materials, labor, installed, should be about $3,000
It gives suggested pricing for cedar, composite and pvc too. All under $15.00.
Between the flip this disaster shows and composite company marketing how can we win. It had me furious because I drove a few hours under the pretense of a solid qualified client and having a successful sale for one of my guys that was a little down at the moment.
Mark My words-- we will win. I know I am preaching to the converted with you guys but realistically I have personally sold decks in the last few years upwards of $100/sf with tempered glass, quarter sawn posts supporting a pergola and pre-finished. With no maintainence that deck the thing looks great even after 5 years.
Anyhow, those guys will see this post and I'd love for you guys to give them realistic numbers for a 288 square foot deck, without railings but with a proper frame, fasteners and decking of different types to standard building code specs, and any indication of higher end decks. Ballparks + or - 5$. We aren't looking for trade secrets... I just want these corporate guys to have a clue.
Here's the current post on the blog.
Thanks in advance guys.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
just tell them a 1' x 1' deck is still gonna cost about $300 plus materials!
funny when I read these sq ft questions ... I literally have absolutley no idea about sq ft costs and/or charges. That pricing is so far outta my head ... I just realized I've never even divided one project out to see what sq ft or linear ft price I've ever worked for in the end.
Just don't care. Everything's different ... even the same stuff!
why bother dividing?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My cost for materials on a 24' long 12'deep pressure treated deck as simple as I can make it.
FRAMING
1 PT 30x 2x10's 12' long = 500$
2 PT 6 6x6 posts = 200$
3 PT 6 2x12x16 = 200$
4 12 bags concrete = 60$
5 fasteners(nails,hangers,bolts)= 200$
DECKING
1 PT 60 5/4 x12' =500$
TOTAL =1660$
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
How much for a treated 12x12 that lays on grade duckboard style?
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I have never bought a 12x12 beam but If you are going to be that close to the ground you could set 4 6x6 x12' on a gravel footing system.Never tried this before so it is a little iffy.
You know with 1340 dollars left over for labor I could make this size deck work for 3000$.
Me and a 100$ a day helper and I could build it in 4 days.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Maybe it's a regional thing. I've been doing square-foot decks for 20+ years and never failed to make decent money. Back in 1987 I could do 'em for as little as $7.00 per. This one I did last Dec. For twice that and almost felt guilty.
12x20=240 sq.ft.x$15.00 per=$3600.00
less mat. cost $1200.00=$2400.00
20 hours labor=$120.00 hr.
Wish I could do 3 a week for that.
Live in the solution, not the problem.
Ok David-- Why does it cost you $5/sf for materials and I'd be squeezed to buy for $10/sf for a floating deck?
Where are you and how are you buying so cheap.
I am thinking that the only way we are going to determine an average price is by me coming up with a shopping list and a few guys getting it priced locally.
How can I be paying twice what you are for the same wood that may or may not have been harvested from behind my house?
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Lawrence,
I worked up a quick estimate for materials at current prices for a 10'x12' #2 PT with no stairs.View ImageMy estimate comes to just about $6/SF including tax.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That particular job was one of the first I did in NC, so I shopped quite a bit to find that price. One other factor is +/- waste. I hauled ALL the scrap off that job in one full wheelbarrow. I'm not usually that close, but it does make a difference.
I'm pretty close to J. Blakemore (geographically),and when working in VA I pay almost to the penny what is reflected on the take-off he posted.
Unfortunately I can't answer your "why" question. It sure as he!! doesn't make much sense does it????Live in the solution, not the problem.
I have sat on the side lines of these deck arguments for sometime but feel inclined to throw in a comment. For the record I build close to 100 decks a year with just myself and maybe one other carpenter for some of the time. I build in Northern IL and Southern WI. Basic deck specs for me are: posts set to 42" frost minimum, 2x10 joists 16 OC, ledger bolted to house and flashed with copper flashing under siding, 5/4 x 6 Premium SYP decking screwed with coated deck screws. If I use a 14 x 20 deck to compare to the 288 sq ft figure being mentioned I would build 14 out from the house, cut the outer corners diagonal, run the decking on the diagonal from the house with a divider board in the center, run a perimeter deck board around the deck (picture frame) and for posts I use 4x4s set into the frame with a top and bottom 2x4 rail, 2x2 spindles and a 2x6 cap board. These are not slap and dash decks but well build, sanded and routed and guaranteed for 24 months labor. Wood is manufacturers guarantee. This what my market wants. I get the fancy decks too but my bread in butter is what I just described.
Having said all that with labor figured at $58 per hour I can buy materials and build the basic deck for a little over 12.50 a square. I charge $15 and do just fine.
While I would like to charge more I fail to see where some of the square ft prices are coming from. It is certainly a regional thing as I can go 50 miles east into the Chicago market and get more. The fact is that I build with the best materials I can get and do a top notch job both in design and construction and sell as many as I can build at that price.
I think what I am saying is decks are a tough business to be in full time and you have to know your market. If you can get 25 and up for treated more power to you but I take a lot of the figures I see with a grain of salt. I also think there is a big difference in building one or two and making a business out of it. I have been at it for 30+ years so I know what it takes but as much as some people want to say different deck building is not rocket science and can be done well by most carpenters.
I do agree with you on the wood vs composite though. In this market unfortunately we are stuck with ACQ as cedar is low grade and I personally think it is too soft for decking. I am building more IPE decks and I am starting to work with Portico and Correct Deck as more people want it but I am very clear on the limitations of the material
And to answer your question, I don't know why your prices are so much higher for material, I can only speak on my area, but I would love to have the materials available that you have.
Canadian or U.S. dollars?
To many variables. You could easily end up loosing your shirt.
Material x 1.5 = Labour
Labour + Material = Total Job
If you do it this way, the customer can change his mind until the cows come home and you will still make a decent buck. Furthermore, it also covers the specialty clause. That is the clause that states that you will make more when you digustingly rich customer will pay more for your labour when you are using specialty building materials. Basicaly, the more they pay in materials, the more they pay in labour.
Always cover your butt.
Dave
I charge $15.00 per sq. foot plus $250.00 per footing for basic pkg. P.T. so your a little low. Then again you are in Canada so maybe you get your lumber cheaper.
I just put up a 16x20 pt deck 6' off the ground with railngs in 2 1/2 days by myself no help ,used 2x12x16 and 2x12x20 so lifting boards was fun. $7 persq. for materials left me with $8 per for myself. Thats $2560 for two and a half days work. Not bad if ya ask me.
You have to get more for stairs and anything thats not a box so to speak.
Edited 2/25/2007 1:36 pm ET by AllTrade
You built a 16x20 deck 6' off the dirt, w/railings (and I presume poured conc. footers or sonotubes) in 2.5 days, by yourself.. I call bullshyt.
Now now, let's not get vitriolic.I think his time is quite reasonable. One day for foundation and most of the framing, one day to finish the framing and install decking, one half day for rails. He never said that he was installing composite decking with Eb-Ty fasteners, or fabricating his railing components out of clear cedar. I've done a 10x12 PT deck with stairs in a day by myself. Not excellent quality of work, but it was not a hack job either.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>One day for foundation and most of the framing, one day to finish the framing and install deckingC'mon. What sort of foundation and "most of the framing" can be done in the same day? By one guy?Did you get that the deck was 6' in the air as well? Lay-out, digging, concrete work, siding removal and ledger installation, flashing, post and beam placement, framing (on ladders, solo), all done in one day? ..The next day stack, drill and screw 320' of decking (warpy PT?)? Then 4 hours to lay-out, fabricate, cut and bolt down posts, install rails and balusters, caps and trim, then re-install siding, etc.? Double balderdash.No vitriol here. Just makin' sense, bro.
Ladders? Im 6'2" could not be a better height all the boards where on my shoulder when I had to nail them. Siding was done in the fall and flashing and J-channel where already installed. I have all the toys!
By the way, at 19 years of age I hand nailed 21 square of three tab on a five pitch in 9 hrs.
At 21 years old I got myself a nail gun and set the standard 33 square three tab reroof ( butt and run) in 8 hrs.
I am proud of that hand nail record a little more. Not many guys can hand nail shingles that fast anymore. Comes from nailing tar paper with no tacker!
One of my guys came close a few years later with 31 in the same time with a gun.
Amazing how piece work can speed a guy up!
Edited 2/26/2007 10:39 pm ET by AllTrade
Edited 2/26/2007 10:41 pm ET by AllTrade
All trade, I am a believer. I cannot get two squares an hour, with a nail gun, but I've seen guys laying two squares an hour by hand. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't believe it based on my speed, but I'm not a fast shingler. I have tossed a house together in my day though LOL!
As for the decks....most guys stand around and overthink the thing. A 16 x 20 deck is a piece of cake. Depending on how difficult the soil conditions are, I don't see why a deck cant be put up in one day. I base my statement on the number of parts in a 16 x 20 deck. Count them. Then, give each piece a time to install. Can I install the joist in five minute each? Yes. How about the rims...five minutes each? yes. What about the posts. 15 minutes each. What about bolting to the house? five minutes per bolt. How about the deck top? 5 minutes per board.
What does it all equal? I don't know...it sounds like about a day to me. Rails are extra. Do I have to hand make the balusters, or do they come in a bundle? Yada, yada, yada.
If all these steps are done, without eating donuts and drinking coffee between each part, it gets done and it gets done in a hurry. There simply aren't that many parts on a 16 x 20 deck.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Thanks Blue, and everyone for the insights.
Blue comes at it from the production side of things and realistically, if Blue says he can make money building PT decks for $15, I bet he could--and we know he would if he thought the market was there for it.
The question was vague intentionally--because the advertising in question was also.
It seems that there are wild differences in specifications and also costs.
For instance some of our guys are using 2x10 joists, 16 oc, 14" footings every 5', 10' spans and upgraded full width radius edged decking. They tell me their costs for pressure treated deck without railings in 12-13$/sf. Seems to be the price difference.
The question is what exactly is a deck?
I was furious that they would advertise and thus take us to task to make our decks conform as a group to what they specify as a reasonable price. We are talking many millions of full process color brochures here. In effect they are dictating what is reasonable price.
I personally haven't put on a pre-cut baluster rail in nearly 15 years. Most of mine have an intricate architectural rail, sometimes tempered glass, with privacy screens and pergola features integrally. My average deck would be in the $55-65/sf range.
When John Swarbrick in Kitchener builds a pt deck it's usually a 3 or 4 different levels and always has some type of architectural feature like a brow curve that translates into the rail. His average is likely in the $35-40/sf range.
As a group we do some standard deck, however our standard would be a baluster within rail type of rail, rather than builders deck.
Final point is: The cost of a deck, when marketing to the broader public should allow for Materials, Labor (ability to hire labor and all associated costs), Overhead, Marketing(to the same ratio that the stating average price uses), PROFIT of not less than 20% and sales costs and commissions. Most importantly the price should reflect all decks--not just the most simple platform money can buy. AVERAGE. That means it should not be a builders rail, nor pressure treated necessarily. A cross section of the market.
In my mind if they are advertising responsibly, tell people that the average deck will range between $20-40/sf in general depending on specifications, materials and level of finish. * Decks can range upwards of $100/sf for many premium options.
There are a million carpenters out there, and they are all proud of their skill and prowess which is what makes us special as a group--altruism. We want to do a good job, we want to be a success, but we also want others to see us as superior.
We should just be careful that this altruism doesn't leave too much money at the table.
For this carpenter--I'm just glad to be able to hang out and exchange ideas with some of the best and brightest.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Edited 2/27/2007 10:09 am ET by Lawrence
Lawrence, I knew you were intentionally leaving the equation wide open and of course I chose to look at it from the factory viewpoint, kinda how Henry Ford would look at it.
I did a few decks in my ingnaugural season, handmaking everything and "decking" them out. I think I got $18 per square back in the mid eighties when decks first sprouted. I wasn't selling production then either. I was selling art, as you are. I just didn't really like the gig.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
My decks usually price at about $20 psf, for ACQ 5/4 on ACQ joists... including footings.
This does not include railings which are about another $20 plf.
I use all stainles steel fasteners except for lag bolts or carriage bolts.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I found some pictures of the decks I have done this year, nothing fancy. This is what the GC's wanted so thats what they got. THese all fell into the $16 sq ft range.
View Image
This deck took 2 days for me and one other guy, 16x16 and about 7' off the ground on the left side.
View Image
These two decks are on the same house, both were done in one day by me and two other guys. 16x14 and 8x14.
View Image
I use 4x6 posts at a minimum, if the decks are off the ground more than 6' I use 6x6's. I have dropped more than one 4x4 and have it snap in half. They also like to twist. Stainless hangers, Ledger lock bolts, stainless deck screws. THe ledgerlocks are excellent for decks, I use an electric impact gun and zip them in without predrilling. When people don't know what you're about, They put you down and shut you out.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one having a hard time with 2 1/2 days for a 16x20 deck. I know that I don't build just decks, maybe that's it. Perhaps Alltrade would give us a timeline and tips on how he does it?
Thanks alltrade, Now I understand. Superman strength and speed and lots of practice.
Edited 2/26/2007 10:46 pm ET by wallrat
I see that Alltrade already explained his method. Here's how I did it. I will say that I typically worked with the guy who is now my business partner, but two men is only very helpful for a few key points along the way.Foundation- 10x12 deck required two holes, 16"x16", frost line by code was 18" at the time. Digging two holes in decent soil never really took that long when you're motivated.Framing- I will admit that we had the ledgers alread nailed on so there was no flashing or siding removal. I would set the rim joists by nailing them to the ledger and nailing a temp post on the end of the joist away from the house. Once the rims are on, the 2x12 beam was cut and toenailed to the rims. These two steps are where a second set of hands is really helpful. Cut & nail posts to the beam and bolt off.Now fasten a 2x4 to the underside of the ledger to hold the joists on until you can nail them. Install the joists & rim board. Install decking with Bo-wrench and ring shank nails. Trim decking ends flush with joists.The railing detail was 4x4 posts bolted to the outside of the rim with a 2x4 on edge nailed on the inside of the posts. A 2x6 rail cap was then installed. Our balusters came in 8' lengths so we set up a chop saw and cut them to length. Using a couple scraps of 2x4 nailed to a spare baluster as a spacer, we would start in the center of the spans from post to post and install the balusters with 3.5" spacing. Stainless 2-1/2" 15 ga. staples fastened the balusters to the 2x4 up top and to the rim joist at the bottom.Like I said, the decks weren't ever worthy of FHB, but for the modular homes they went on they were fine. As another said, piece work is a great motivator.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Excavator dug footings and dropped in tubes and backfilled. He was on site preping my addition footings anyway.
When we poured my footings for addition the truck backed up and poured footings for deck 5 min max so I did not include that time .
1st day- last sat. 3.5 hrs of time.
I set up laser. checked footing hieghts ( all exact)cut 6x6's to recieve beam, stood them up checked again MONEY! stood them agaist the homes wall to assist in holding up install of 2x12x20 ledger, cut,marked to match beam and layout. predrill ,lag to wall. Move posts back on footings. Simpson feet installed to footings and nailed to posts. Set 2x12x20 on top of posts one side at a time using strap to hold up other end on a braced post. Careful now, back hurts a little.Stopped to think about a time when I was young, When I was leaning ,solid everywhere ,"LIKE AROCK"! A long time ago! shimmy this way that way check for square. set second beam set , nail and bolt . Set first two outside joists/frame and nail. Went to dinner with the lady and enjoyed my steak. Could not stop thinking about the tease of only putting a few hours in so far, could not wait to get back at it. More merlot,a little boom boom , sleep,now the fun starts, finally!
Day 2 Sun 7am ,lets do it! total time 9 hrs with a lunch break!
Set the rest of 2x12x16 joists , teco's, install last of the rotten 2x12x20's for front frame. install 10 decking boards 5/4 x 20' Can you say lunch! Finish off decking see ya tomorrow railings! No boom , too tired!
Day three monday. 8 hrs
railings, "too easy " I'll put diaper on these things. All precut balusters and a simple design 4x4's bolted to inside of frame balusters nailed on 2x4 and frame with 2x6 top rail and router the edge ho , hum I know.
Not fancy, I still have to sand and stain but its too cold here right now for all that.
Well, Alltrade, I guess your first post was a bit dishonest then. You sure made it sound like you did the whole thing, from lay-out to final sanding, solo, in 2 1/2 days. Then you charged "$2,560" for your 20 hrs of real labor..Also, dishonest, IMHO.But now you say the house was already prepped and laid-out for the deck (new construction w/ integral ledger). And the footers were already prepared (by another sub--at additional cost?). Now you installed "10 decking boards" ...? Ten 5/4x6 boards gives us less than 5' of deck. Not quite the 16' you implied. When did you install the rest? ..Gun-nail or drill & screw?See my prob w/ your posts? It's all in the assumptions, bro. When I say I will build a deck for $15/ft, I assume certain things. So I applied those assumptions to your most basic deck. But my assumptions were all wrong (as would have been the assumptions of any homeowner you contracted w/ to build this particular deck). Bottom line: either you were BS-ing in your original post, you're back-pedaling now, or you really did grossly over-charge your customer. Whatever.
Wow! Not sure what I did to piss you off. I would be dishonest if I never told you how I did what I did or how I did. If you read it all again you'll see that was never my intention nor am I a dishonest person. Perhaps you should wait until someone does something to offend you before you attack them with personal jabs as most of us around here are pretty decent people.
Lay out takes about ten min with a deck this size and location. Sanding is not part of every deck job. Actually I have never had to sand any of mine to date. This was my deck ,as in ,on my house. Not for a customer. I did just provide a customer with a deck cost of 15 per foot plus footing costs.
Quote;" Now you installed "10 decking boards" ...? Ten 5/4x6 boards gives us less than 5' of deck. Not quite the 16' you implied. When did you install the rest? ..Gun-nail or drill & screw"?
You should relook at that post of mine again because it never mentioned the footings also if you look at the first day, I only put in 3.5 hours. The total time for deck was 3.5,9,8 total is 20 1/2 hours . Day and a half of work on my clock and most I would think?
My original post stated I charge in addition to the decks price 15 for footings 250 each so they are not part of my cost breakdown in regards to the profit on deck. Three footings comes to $750.00 even if I rent a small machine for 250 and run it myself I am done in a day with pour. But all of that is not in my breakdown of 2 1/2 days for deck. I never said anything about the siding because that is differant on every job. Some decks go on homes that have no siding ( new construction) Some on homes with t1-11, Siding is siding and decking is decking . Sometimes both jobs are handled by the same tradesmen and sometimes not. In this case I sided the house months before. If you read the other posts you''ll see there are more than afew of us who can work at this pace. Come on up north one day and I'll show ya how the Yankee's " GET ER DONE" Hope the weather is fine down there in Florida because its cold as hell up here!
Edited 2/27/2007 9:58 pm ET by AllTrade
Sorry, not purposely trying to cross swords, but, you originally said: >>I just put up a 16x20 pt deck 6' off the ground with railings in 2 1/2 days by myself no help ,used 2x12x16 and 2x12x20 so lifting boards was fun. $7 persq. for materials left me with $8 per for myself. Thats $2560 for two and a half days work. Not bad if ya ask me.Now you're saying the deck was on your own house. So you earned $2,560 building your own deck? You've totally lost me, bro.I'm not pissed off. Just trying to figure out how/why someone would charge $128/hr to build a low-quality deck on HIS OWN house. It's supremely odd, dontcha think?As far as your pace goes, like I said, once I cleansed myself of all my original assumptions (see my last post), I can clearly see why it only took you 2.5 days to build it. Heck, I could have done that in 2.1 days, easy. BTW, I've only recently moved to FL. I spent more than 13 years in Alaska. I know cold. And I know how to 'getERdone' in good or poor weather, I can assure you.Peace.
Gotta tell you 'bout my buddy...I used to frame 2500 sf high end platt houses around Seattle, lots of arches, some with radius stairs [carpeted, so just plywood pies for treads with curved 3"curb] some wierd cantilevers, but pretty straight forward, trusses, most of the shine came from cool mill work and finshes.
Took me and two guys about 18 days to frame up, long days, but not too many sats. Along comes Jon, framing solo, his brother coming in on weekends, keeps pace with me and my two guys! Dude was about 5'5" and never stopped all day, sun up, sun down, 7 a week. Seems he'd had a bad land deal and was in a hurry to get his money back. Asked him how he did it, all he said was hours, lots of hours. Cours it didn't hurt that he'd stared at like 15 y.o., one efficient mother who made no mistakes. And lest you wonder at his quality, when he walked across the stree to start the next house he was DONE, sup didn't even bother walking his house, just out of respect.
Anyways, he started putting up all the decks on this builders houses, simmilar to Stilletto's postings, but with 2x2 pickets 31" long sandwiched between 1x4 horizontally top and bottom with a 2x4 top and held 3.5" above decking between 4x4 posts attache to framing. Facia was held flush to top of deck boards to cover end cuts and stairs were 3x12 treated stingers with the same material for treads with metal brackets and 1/4 lags. I believe all framing was p.t. 2x8, all else was cedar except stairs. Now mind you, all ledgers and footings were in place and most decks were 6' to 8' tall.
He would frame five decks in a day...just framing, but still. S.f. was aroun 180'. He would return the following day to lay all the 5/4x4 decking, nailing with stainless ring shanks and install the precut rail posts. . Then he would measure all of his spaces between posts and that night at home in his shop he would lay out with his construction master 5 all his rails, nail them together and load them in his cube van[did I mention he delivered all his own lumber] He would return to nail up his pre-fabricated rails, install his stairs, done. And then he would go get the wood for the next five.
Obviously the dude had no personal life, but look out. Also, he spent a lot of time pre fabing and the prices were definitely production, I think he only made about 800$ a piece, but do the math. He was also the go to guy when ever any thing was screwed up in any of the platts and if the sup hadn't met Jon yet he gave them his little speech, "When I'm done fixing your screw ups I'll hand you a VPO. You will sign it. If you question it in any way I will never step on one of your sites again." They always signed....
By the way, I got 9 years on the Baring Sea bro. and sorry about the book I just wrote, brevity being next to godliness and all.
Edited 2/28/2007 3:50 am ET by ryding
ryding.. nice book.. good paragraph sizing .. nice edit on the white space..
a little more polishing and the story would tell itself
well worth the read..
5'-5" huh ?
anyways.. what do you do now ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
little this an that...still have one framing crew, filling a seemingly much needed niche of finishing other peoples unfinished work with a nother crew, mostly framing pick up, my partner runs a crew doing mostly warranty/final walk through work and remodels though our office mngr runs most of that since it's mostly scheduling and customer communication. He also runs jobs for two builders who can't seem to find good sups and that's actually my partners back ground, running big plats.
Most exciting for me though...finally bought a fixer upper and we are short platting it to add two more houses behind, pretty much our goal when we started up. We are partnered up with a real estate agent friend and a crab fishing mate of mine so maybe between the four of us we can put together one good busines brain[ex-crabber, framer,rabid snow boarder, soon to be father, there's not a whole lot a marbles left in the box]
I'll agree with Mike. Nice book.
Your little story regarding this particular carpenter illustrates the possibilities of how fast things can be framed by someone who is entirely focused on production. The issue of quality isn't an issue either, if the person delivering the products has high standards.
If you analyze the situation, you'll find that the carpenter is working alone, knows what needs to be done and works at it consistently and repitiously. The normal end results in situations such as this is excellent qulity work at production speed.
One of the most important keys in the production is the use of systems. It may not be evident but your carpenter is systematically moving from one system to another. The installation of rough frames and decks is actually very simple stuff and if repeated consistently over a sustained period of time, very productive systems are developed. These systems usually are not evident to most observers whether they are crewmembers or casual observers, yet they exist and they often provide substantial timesavings if properly applied.
Substantial timesavings are more dramatic than most people can comprehend. I have often watched and analyzed individual work habits of crewmembers and have at time scribbled notes with the intention of sharing my observations with them, to assist them in their development as efficient carpenters. It has been my experience that when I stand and watch, for very short periods of time, say ten minutes, I could easily fill two pages on a yellow pad of hints and suggestions for more efficiently framing a house. It is phenomenol as to how many small steps are wasted. More importantly is the time factors involved in each small steps that are wasted. It's not unusual to see carpenters taking ten times or more the time needed to execute a small framing technique. The technique might take the average carpenter ten or twenty , seconds to complete and often I know of methods that could cut it to one or two seconds or perhaps five seconds.
My mentoring experiece tells me though, that very few carpenters want to be educated on simple basic framing techniques and therefore it's not really possible to give away any secrets that I possess. If I take my substantial list and offer it up to the crew it usually causes an opposite effect of what I was hoping for. In my experience I have found that only one or two people in my CAREER have been in tune with what I am talking about.
I'm thinking you stumbled onto one of these type people.
blue
ps I don't mind writing a book myself in here. If readers object to reading so much "stuff", they easily can use their down arrows and surf right on by. I often use that power myself LOL! "...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
More important I would like to read your book on systems and improving efficiency so if you ever get around to it I am anticipating.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Sorry Andy, I doubt that I'll ever write it. First, I'm no author. Second, I'm ADD. I can't concentrate long enough to put together anything that appears to be logical. If you could pick up the sraps of my mind and paste them randomly in a book, it might make for some good reading to a framing carpenter, but probably to no one else.
I think I should have been one of those time study engineers.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Yo Andy, I believe the book's already been written..it's called "The Very Efficient Carpenter". I have it. It's a good read.
I have read that one and Carpentry by Larry Haun and Working Alone and Measuring,Marking and layout by Carroll.
All of these are good reads and very helpful but I am always looking for more insights.
ANDYSZ2 WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
>>All of these are good reads and very helpful but I am always looking for more insightsOK, well then I'll write one on why speed/efficiency is not always a good indicator of value, and is usually an indicator of poor quality.Guys that can work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week framing houses surely gain 'rapid assembly' skills. Watching a guy work solo from dawn till dusk driving nails like Paul Bunyan (who exploded his heart as a price) may make for good entertainment--perhaps a new Olympic event--but I submit that whatever benefits it gives to the building trades are fleeting at best (excuse the pun). I suggest that the trade-off for mindless speed is quality, in the general case, and physical and emotional deterioration (for the tradesman) in the specific case.A man who hammers out 7 decks a day/7 days a week cannot possibly enjoy the work of his hands. And a man who cannot take pleasure in his work soon has customers who can't either.
And I will say to you efficiency is an art of insight and experience which when imparted to others is one of those free things in life that should not be under appreciated.
With efficiency comes more time to finess the finishing touches and more time to spend with your loved ones/ also it provides the opportunity to make a larger profit while impressing your client with your abilities.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Edited 2/28/2007 8:11 pm by ANDYSZ2
The old saying you have heard before: Do you work to live or do you live to work.
I think that was John Henry.
You're right...John Henry, not the guy w/ the big blue ox.
Perfectly said. Another round for my friend bartender!
I did just do a Trex deck a month ago for $44.00 per square ft. Half round 24' x 16' .I'll take some pics and post them. I came up with a plan to keep it waterproof underneath and then installed patio below. Spiral stairs go from upper deck to lower patio.
Where are you in Sussex County and how are things holding up up that way?
Just met a wonderful lady ( Angela) 3 years ago and we bought a home here in Newton. We looked all over and feel we got lucky at the time. 1 1/2 acres up on a hill on Swartswood Road near the collage. Was a fixer upper but it was 70,000 less than anything in the area of the same size and sat on much better property. So we re did the whole lower half first in the 30 days I took off from work to make it happen. Her Dad at 70 is amazing. He did all the painting of walls ,doors, trim. I had to gut all the sheetrock , floors and redo some light plumbing and electric. I built in an entertainment system into the family room wall with my 52" DLP. Re did both baths and we are now putting up garage addition.
As far as work goes. Things were busy the last 10 years not slow at all but recently the calls have slowed for homes but I did my first spec and its on the market right now. Getting lookers but no takers yet. Couple of leads came in the last few days so hopefully we can land a home for the summer. I have a few jobs to get me there coming up. 1. 12x32 deck, 2. master bath and closet additon, 3 odd jobs for various accounts 4..my own additon Where you at and hows it lookin over there?
Judge not lest u be judged...I can't put my values on someone else's motives. I do happen to know that jon had lost quite a bit on a bad land deal and was focused on one thing, make a bunch of dough in a few years and move east of the mountains where he loves to fish, start a small spec business and live the dream.
I spent nine years on a crabber in the Baring Sea working 20 hrs a day, 6 to 8 months some years. My Mom hated it and a lot of others just couldn't fathom it, and some would argue that I was wasting my youth and risking my life for the evil dollar. Any one that spent more than 10 minutes on deck realizes that money is the last thing that can keep you going. I can't articulate with any accuracy what it takes to be a highliner so I won't bother.
On the flip side I suppose th 5 previous spent as a beach bum in Hawaii could be seen as a waste of my youth also, aimless days in the sun, no big hurry to get any where, a sure sign of lazy, unmotivated, wanton hedonism. Go figure.
Passing a judgement on someone based on limited information is rather ignorant actually. I know for a fact there is no better framer than Jon. His equal may be out there, but I doubt it. I'm not talking speed, I'm talking expert knowledge coupled with the pride to do a job better than ones peers, underscored by an unnatural ability to kick a?? His decks were of a design I'm sure many high end builders would call simple or unelegant or boring or...whatever. The fact remains that his finished product would be unsurpassed by any one building the same deck, he'd just do five to their one.
Don' be a hatter, cellebrate excellents in your brother carpenters, some who could teach us all a thing or two... Once again, the long winded version, appoligies to all.
Guys that can work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week framing houses surely gain 'rapid assembly' skills
You seem to be basing your opinion on the fact that someone works too many hours in a week. I'm not, nor have ever been that guy, but I do know some guys who enjoy it so much that they think they are playing all day and all week. It's not work to them and since they don't have family obligations, they just stay there and "play".
Me? I honed my skills as a union carpenter. When I started, we were limited to a 35 hour week : 8 to 3:30. When you only work 7 hours, you CAN sprint. Ironically, when things went down the unions institute 8 hour workdays. It wasn't long before I figured out that I couldn't possibly maintain my 7 hour clip for eight hours. I had to learn to pace myself and that thought almost killed me LOL!
The idea that people who are working efficiently and fast are producing poor results is 180 degrees from the truth though and it has been my experience that the fastest skilled carpenters usually put out the best work. Why? Because they know what they are doing, know how they are going to go about doing it, mentally plan ahead every step, never do things out of order, usually don't make many mistakes and know that if they get things lined up perfectly the entire assembly operation goes fastest. For instance, if you watched me frame a deck myself, you probably wouldn't notice anything different between me and the guy framing next door, but if you looked a little closer, you'd notice small things. For instance, when I lay the joists on the beam and foundation wall prior to nailing them up, they are all placed perfectly on the layout lines, both on the wall and on the beam. When I roll them up, there is no thinking, no adjustments, just stand them up and go. When I get to the beam, there are no adjustments, just walk along the beam and nail. Incidently, I don't nail the beam till I lay all the plywood and can comfortably lean over from the deck and nail them. Why can I do that ? because all the joist are perfectly on layout from the first moment I stage them.
So, how much time does this system save? I don't know. I spend one second each getting them staged perfectly, but I save an incredible amount of time doing the nailing. I've seen guys with joist so jacked up at severe angles and they waste a ton of time bending over, looking for layout marks.
The mere method of layout marks can add tons of time.
Basically, I have always been of the opinion that perfect systems lead to perfect framing. Many carpenters seem to think that the only way to speed things up is to skip important parts of the job, but that is how inefficent, unorganized guys compete.
You will be able to make the argument that most fast carpenters are poor carpenters. That is true because that same statment can be applied to slow carpenters. Being slow does not make a good carpenter. Yes, some slow carpenters are good but usually they are not focused on getting something done in a timely manner. They move just as slow on routine jobs where huge time gains are possible as when they are doing intricate work. The real challenge of framing is to know where to move things along and where to slow down and get things perfect. For me, that was the most challenging thing to learn about framing. When you really analyze how involved framing a house is, it's really a very simple basic operation. Even rafters and stairs are very basic geometrical operations which should be learned and grasped by novices in very little time if the put any mental effort into it. Probably, the ones having a hard time understanding it are taking the information in ways that they cant process. ONce they get it in a way that they can process it, it's all very simple math and geometry.
Except circular stuff.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Very well said. I have seen poor tradesmen who are fast and very good tradesmen who are fast. Its all about personalites.
I happen to plan my next day the night before . I write it all down on a small piece of paper the best way and order to approach the next day so I can make the most of my time. I keep the paper in my pocket and over the years I have needed to pull it out less and less because I have reinforced those habits. Every now and then I change or add to this procedure from what I have learned form others. This is why I am here at breaktime to be honest. All these crazy critters actually do things much the same way around here and are looking for the same results. How can I make myself more efficient, to a better job etc. I come here like a sponge to soak up guys like Piffin and others for info. I may even like some of there personalities, lol.
I to lay my boards right where they need to go. All my marks are transfered from piece to piece before they leave the lumber pile or floor for assembly. I did not teach myself this, I learned from others and improved on things as I went. Its amazing though how many people think fast means shotty. Even my own roofers would say at lunch break how I was fast but they would rather do good work than fast. It was at these moments I fealt my best, I would stand them up ,walk with confidance to my section and say "show me"! They could find no way in which my sections were differant from theres , in fact most of the time it would be their work which sufferd from good craftsmenship. (If roofing can be condsiderd craft,lol).
I am sure that 99% of the tradesmen that come to this site do great work. I feel that way because we are here, looking,learning,soaking in, asking and telling. The ones who don't do good work are out there happy and content to put one nail in each shingle and use indoor glue for outdoor jobs. They have no need to learn or improve on what it is they do because they do not care. We are faster,we do better work and we shall improve on both as time goes on. Unless old age catches up with us that is.
I happen to plan my next day the night before . I write it all down on a small piece of paper the best way and order to approach the next day so I can make the most of my time.
In my apprentice days, I took on the job as foreman at quite an early time in my career. I had a lot to learn and had the weight of an entire house on my shoulders. I had journeymen to lead.
To be prepared, I too spent time at night with the job. I'd pour over the plans and quite often, I would draw to scale many different parts of the job. I'd draw sections. I'd draw elevations. I'd draw all kinds of things. Instead of getting there the next day and confronting the difficult parts, I'd mentally build the entire thing and then draw it all out. Of course I'd be faster at building it the next day....I knew exactly how I was going to do, which parts I would uses, how much material I needed etc!
As my career continued, I relied less and less on this preplanning and relied more and more on my experience. These days, I rarely need more than one second to digest something if it is using typical materials. I don't have to draw anthing anymore because I can reach back into the chambers of my experiences and bring forth the exact situation and just start executing it. Usually, the only thing that will slow me down is people. Put more people on the job and I don't have enough space to work and they are always in my way, putting things in my way, doing things out of order and slowing me down by talking to me LOL! If you want my best work and best speed, stay on the curb, I'll take it all from here!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
LOL , I had to chuckle at the people talking to me comment as I feel the same way sometimes. Also puttting things out of order or in the wrong palce drives me nuts.
One way in which people seem to differ is my approach is raising interior walls. Some guys nail both top and bottom plates then stand up the wall. I attach the bottom plate right away and let the feet dangle and attach when wall is stood up. while both ways are fine if we are laying out plates together we had better be on the same page. Sometimes we have sheathing outfits come in for $4 per sheet so even the outside walls get done the same way.
I like hearing all these different methods for doing the same thing as I'm always looking for the better mouse trap...seems different parts of the country can have very different methods. I wonder if I could find a crew around here to hang even exterior sheeting for 4$. Still curious why you don't nail top/bottom plates and square while on the ground?
There are so many walls on a framing job that intersect it is impossible to do so with every wall and have the upper plates continuous and locked together. I nail all my floor plates right away, temp toe nail my upper plate to that and mark everything out including rafters ,jacks,kings,studs. I then pull the toe nailed board off and nail all studs to that plate. Stand it up and kick them in place one by one as I nail. Gravity and weight make nailing a tight job without a hassle. All the walls wind up straight and very little needs to be done to align. What worked/ aligned on the ground once interlocked above will work/align when complete.
When I have to do the sheating I will attach both top and bottom , square, install sheathing , tyveck,siding,window and then stand up and nail.
Interesting. I've never seen sheeting crews that come in after the walls are up out here in the n.w., and I would love to be able to tip up all my walls unsheathed just from a weight aspect. Does that mean that a second floor wall, 48' long, 12 sheets across pays just 48$ at 4$ a sheet? Who cuts out the windows and doors? Out here L&I is all over the place writing up safety violations{i.e. carrying a saw up a ladder, violation, should pull said tool up with a rope as the climbing of ladder requires three points[limbs] to be in contact while climbing aforementioned ladder?????????] so I wonder if the price wouldn't go up with the equipment to do it "safely".
ryd... joe carola says the do the same thing in joisey...
they use sheathing crews come in after the frame is upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Price per sheet will change depending on house but a box such as a two story home will get 5 per sheet and they cut the windows. They are in and out very quick.
Blue,
I think you should write something about production. I would love to read it. Just pics one subject like layout that you mentioned and put a couple of paragraphs down.
Pleeeeeaaaase :-)
Okay Tim...I'll give you a hint about one simple aspect of beam layout.
We set a lot of steel beams on every house because we ALWAYS have basements....Geez...the tip seems so simple, but the basis for the tip has to start at the beginning....it's so frustrating. I need to write a book to give you one simple idea. That's why I haven't ever attempted to document what I do. The best shot was the boogerin' thread that disappeared. I've lost all those pics too to computer crashes, so I can ressurect them. And I haven't spent enough time in the field to do another thread. I think I've put ten pounds of nails in wood in the last year.
Anyways here goes one idea for framing a basement. I'll tell you how 999 out of a thousand guys do it here first. Notice that we use mostly dimensional lumber here and we typically will have several steel beams and the 2x10 joists will lap over the beam.
They set the steel and temp brace it. They then run all their blue foam. They then run all their green sill plates flush with the foundation wall. They then put a sill plate on the beam. They then put two rim joists together on the back wall and layout all the joist layouts on the top of the rim joists, just like they would do with two partition plate layouts. They split the rim joists and take one to the front of the house and the other to the rear of the house.
I've seen these guys with 65' long pairs of rim joists out in the streets on cut up houses.
After running the joists and nailing them up on the rims, they square their rims using a variety of methods, mostly by pulling the rims parallel, then pulling diagonals from somewhere, then re aligning the rims on all four sides. They then pull a string across the first set of mated joists and nail it down to the beam. They then hook their tape and set each joist 16" oc from the first one.
This method will technically work. We learned this in the days that all basements were rectangular in style and it was simple, effective and fast. Our grampas used this method and passed it down.
Now, the foundation footprint is incredibly cut up. This method doesn't make sense and doesnt make money.
Okay....how do I do it? Simple, I start with my sill plates and lay two sides parallel. I pull a square line using a very simple "equal distance" t-style method. I then layout the sill plates using the simple line and x method. Note that the steel is not set yet. I install the plate on the steel and put the layout on that. I DO NOT use the line and x method on that beam plate. I put two lines on the OUTSIDE of the joist samwhich.
So, the tip is to put the lines where they will be VISIBLE after you set your joist over the beam. The other tip is to put the sill plate on in a logical, square fashion. Solve the squaring problems before you get all the stuff in your way. The next tip is the put the plate on the steel BEFORE it's set and you have to dangle out over the basement, hangin by your toes. The other tip is to put the layout on the beam before you get stuff in your way. The other tip is that it is very easy to brace your steel if you have the sill plates nailed securely to the foundation walls. If you do it in this order you WILL NOT need any form of temporary bracing. Often, we use the actual joist that will later be stood up and nailed as part of the floor assembly.
If these procedures are followed, there will be many additional benefits that will materialize. I cannot possibly remember all of them sitting here in my house but they are many.
It's amazing how easy framing is, if it is done in the right order. Most crews think that four or five guys are needed to put a deck together in a speedy efficient manner but I KNOW that anymore than two is a huge waste of time. Prior to my transition into on site panelizing, if I started a job with two guys and myself, I sent one of them to work out in the garage alone, or I send them to the truss pile to start the ROOF TRUSSES. If I had to put four or five guys on one deck, I KNEW it would eat up double the time it actually takes it to frame it. I would be better off telling the guys to stay home and payed them for a full day, rather than to get in my way and slow my and my helper down. My helper could be a first day apprentice and I'd be money ahead of working with five competent carpenters LOL!
Most guys (9,999 out of 10,000) stand up the wrong joist first too.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
No problem . Lets cross swords in the future to. Keeps the blood pumping.
I atcually did not charge myself anything but materials . I was using the latest deck I did as an example to show how much one can make at 15 per ft. It just happend to be my own. I had seen so many high costs per square ft and I was putting in my own costs per square ft. I always charge seperate for the footings. It really comes down to what type , and what materials but 15 per for standard pt I can do real well on.
Alaska to Florida ...............thats culture and climate shock all in one!
One more thought.
I am suprised to see so many of us call P.T " low quality" or "sub par".
I think of low quality as being something that is sub standard or not exceptable. An example would be sheetrock. I am sure some would say that wainscoating or stone work would be an upgrade over the simple design of sheetrock but just the same sheetrock happens to be the most common of wall coverings and works for most. Brick over wood siding anyone? Wood over vinyl? Great Taste, Less Filling?
P.T. is not sub standard. It happens to "be" the standard. I am sure it leads the field in board footage sold and installed. Taken care of with proper maintenance it can last a liftime.
Now I myself would love to have something that looks and lasts longer on my deck but with all the upgrades to my home already and the addition I am building onto my home ,coupled with the baby on the way , three kids in the home already, it just won't happen. I decided to choose upgrading the insulation in the addition and existing home over upgrading the "standard P.T. " decking" .
Trade-- Get some stain on that PT. Your new baby could get very ill from exposure to the chemicals.
Southern Yellow Pine and Northern Jack Pine are two very different animals. I would not call Yellow Pine pt sub standard by any stretch. I enjoyed using it and it holds up well.
Northern Pine comes from second growth Jack Pine. These are the twisty things that only get about 8-10" by harvesting. Means every post has the core and most of the deck boards also. EVERY single piece of wood will crack and twist badly. It is sub basement standard but it is all you can get around here.
I remember when I was jockeying a lot of pt--I'd develop this twitch in my eye from the chemicals. I priced it up about $10 from fear. All of a sudden I started selling more cedar.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Yes , I plan on getting to that long before the baby thats due in july. Temps just got over 40 again so I need to wait a little . Plan on sanding with mask to get some labels off and get it uniform color before coating. I would like to darken a bit and add a clear coat also . Any recommends?
Sure Ron-- Look for something formulated for ACQ and check this guide for stain application.
Good luck with the pregnancy--and your sleep deprivation following.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Yeah right,
I want a 10sqft deck. At 11.70 this would be 117.--. Can you supply the materials, dig the footings and finish the deck for that price? You should be able to do this in an hour labor because the rest is all material cost.
These sqft prices are all ...... Get detailed drawings, price it, add profit and submit
No more head-scratching, let them bid for you:
http://www.vadeck.com/deck-cost-calculator.htm
Edited 3/15/2007 2:02 am ET by Mongo
Brilliant Mongo!
Thanks--
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Brilliant might be the word. I opened their spreadsheet and was immediately overwhelmed. It might be a brilliant marketing ploy....offer to let them figure their own price, then make is so complicated that no one could actually do it!
Or, maybe I'm just spreadsheet challenged.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Just what kind of message are you sending your potential clients...
I'll build the deck--but you need to design it for me--and figger out the pricing because I don't have time to help you with that.
The guy is likely cutting his potential sales to 1/10 what it could be.
Then again--pricing is pretty much rock bottom out there.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Lawrence,Do you really think the pricing is rock bottom? As I said to Blue, if we could charge what his spreadsheet says I would do decks full time.Maybe I messed up or maybe he changed the spreadsheet, but the deck I priced on his site was about 40% than our price.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hi Jon-
Last I checked it was. Maybe I should have another look-I sure would be happy to see that he has pumped pricing to include some profit. My definition of rock bottom is 20$ a square foot for pt, and $30 for ced.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Blue,That guy is from my hometown. I have never seen him (that I know about) but I had a client refer me to his site. The deck that we did for them was a lot more expensive on his site than what our price was.He's got a lot of content on his site, some of it pretty interesting. Did you see the barter section?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA