Are you using TrusJoist’s Timberstrand 1.5e LSL material for rafters? I saw a roof frame in progress today, the whole thing being either LVLs at ridges, hips, and valleys, and LSL for all the rafters. No sawn lumber anywhere.
It’s a huge premium to pay, for getting knot-free, no splits, dead straight material. Why are they doing it?
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Replies
First thought is that it is a "Cost Plus" job . ;-)
Any real long runs on the rafters?
Depth of rafters for insulation considerations in a cathedral application?
My God, I can't imagine how expensive that would be.
No way would I wanna pay for that...
A: "Boy, I hope it's mine!"
Wave of the futurehttp://www.ilevel.com/roofs/r_Timberstrand-roof-framing.aspx
This looks very interesting. Does TrusJoist McMillan provide a similar product?
The link I gave was a Weyerhaeuser product. Part of their timberstrand line.
Edited 12/16/2006 2:24 pm ET by xosder11
Can't speak for them directly, obviously. But, I once framed a house where the common rafters were cut from 32' stock. This was before LSL's so we used all LVL's for the commons. It was a heavy, slow, expensive process. I would have killed to have LSL's available on that job.
Or maybe somebody just wants a frame that's a close to perfect as possible. If that were my goal, LSL's would be the direction I'd be heading too. I'd love to frame a whole house out of them with all Advantech sheathing. That'd be a framer's wet dream.
BTW: Did you get my reply to your email regarding booms & forklifts?
Edited 12/15/2006 3:40 pm ET by dieselpig
Yep, sure did get the email. Thanks.
I'll post a pic next week of this roof frame all in LSL and LVL.
And no, Boss, it ain't cost-plus.
I had the same deal mabe a year and a half ago- needed 33' rafters, LSL's were available , but only from Trus joist Mcmillain, and they were a bit more expensive than LVL's from other manufacturers. We used LVL's.
Maybe they want both the roof and ceilings flat...they migh actually be saving a bundle. Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
DP,
We are just wrapping up a house that is 95% engineered lumber. All studs 2x4 and 2x6 LSL, 1st floor joist all LVL, 2nd Floor all engineered trusses, rafter all lvl, rigde beams and all major exposed structural member all PSL. Decking all 1 1/8 Advantech and roof sheating all 5/8 advantech. Only the wall sheathing is traditional 5/8 plywood as we could not get the 5/8 advantech in time..
It was an awesome experience and I am never going back (unless we have to). Some of our rafters are 30' long and part of a cathedral ceiling-smooth as glass. No split ends when framing up the walls. All of the lumber was delivered as 48' stock. Very little waste. Walls are bullet straight from the get go. Bracing was installed to keep them straight. Minimal prep for drywaller-and we usually spend alot of time as most of our work is a level five finish.
In reply to Gene original post, last year I spent almost $6000 in call back for cosmetic issues that were directly related to twisting associated with drying Southern yellow pine. We framed two offices last year. I had to cull 50 % of each stud bunk and even out of that 50% I could have easily culled another 50% but the need to finish the job won out. These were the best studs in Austin-imported from Germany at nearly $3.00 a stud.
I am lucky though as I have clients who appreciate that level of quality in their framing materials. I do keep a SYP 16' in the shop to show them the difference between pine and LSL and few days in the sun. The 6" bow in the pine does the trick-this is #1 pine as well.
Bruce
Bruce,
That sounds like a great experience. I believe the only LSL's that I've ever actually handled were 4x and 6x posts. My big question to you, is how do they compare in weight to conventional lumber? Are they somewhat heavier or are they substantially heavier? Does raising large walls and what-not become tricky with the additional weight?View Image
The 2x4 and 2x6 LSL weigh less than the Southern Yellow Pine (SYP) lumber I usually get. The SYP is much heavier than Doug Fir or SPF. Handling wise it is about the same as SPF except that you can fab up 40' wall with no splice in the plates and have it be perfectly straight. So I guess I would say it is a little easier. The only draw back is the amount of splinters that come off the edges. They are square and sharp. I've got some pretty thick skin on my paws but I usually spent two or three minutes at lunch and at the end of the day pulling out the splinters.
Weyerhaueser also has a program that if you buy lots of engineered lumber you get a significant rebate at the end of the year. I am meeting the Weyerhauser reps next week to find out what mine will be.
Bruce
I promised a pic of the job, and since I was on a money-collecting trip into town and had my cam in my pocket, here ya go. They're moving slow, and obviously need someone of your talents on site!
BTW, 2x12x24 SPF#2 price versus TrusJoist Timberstrand LSL 1.5e 1.5x11.25x24', $41.97 versus $87.00.
View Image
Edited 12/19/2006 3:20 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Where you say all was delivered as 48' stock, do you mean stud stuff too?My last addition frme, I must have culled thirty percent of the solid lumber. It's getting discouraing.
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Piffin,
Yes, all the lsl stock comes upto 48' lengths. I know it is standard for the 2x4 and 2x6 to come as 36' footers. Weyerhauser will cut studs from them but it would have added another week to the delivery. Plus we had 7 different wall heights, only one standard so I figured it was not big deal
All our lvls can come upto 60' in length but need a special permit to haul them. My yard will deliver the 48' with no problem-assuming the driver somewhat experienced.
The stud lumber is what made me change over.
Another interesting thing I noticed last week as we were cleaning up the job site. I found a scrap of 2x6 LSL sitting a puddle-must have been there for 5 months along with SYP 2x4. The 2x6 LSL was slightly swollen but intact and strong. The 2x4 had already started rotting
I absolutely loved framing with LSL. You do need to crank up the guns though.
Bruce
Edited 12/25/2006 8:16 am by Hiker
I see the full lengths asa great advantage. I do lot of cost plus work too and have occasionally used LVLs for extreme floor spans in the past. I know about having a good nailer and upping the drive pressure, but that other comment seemed extreme. I don't even have that much trouble with LVLs. My small experience with LSLs has been good. I'm definitely making it a consideration for the future to go all the way with lam lumber after this last job.
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TrusJoist's LSL 1.5e is very tough nailing. Get some and try it out.
Oh yes... I remember that SYP so well!! that was pretty much the worst thing I encountered in the business while living in Texas. When I moved back to Iowa, I had to trade really crappy weather for relatively decent framing lumber. (To be honest I've since decided that the nice weather is very much worth putting up with the crappy lumber. Which is why I'm now in Florida!)
Back on subject, I have a friend who built his own house a couple of years ago. He designed it himself, with the help of a co-worker who has an engineering degree and therefore was determined to be an "expert".
The roof system was a pretty simple gable roof with just one run and two dormers. they spec'd double 16"microlams for the ridge boards, and 12" microlams for the common rafters. If I remember correctly, the pitch was like a 10/12 or 12/12, and those commons weren't any more than maybe 18 feet long. I'd be willing to bet that it's the most over-engineered house in the entire state. The entire house was like this. All the floor and ceiling joists were also 12" microlams.
As you can imagine, they had a truely wonderful experience nailing those lams to the ridge board. He got a bunch of college students that he worked with to help him with building the house. Imagine all these soft kids who have never swung a hammer before atttempting to toe-nail lam beams together. (just being able to watch that alone would have been worth the price of admission!) After determining that they were never going to get these things nailed together they actually came up with a fairly ingeneous solution considering their predicament. They went and bought 12" joist hangers and used them. (Again... yeah they were now able to get everything nailed together, but remember these were not carpenters, or even handy people for that matter. Can you just imagine how many smashed fingers and how much blood-letting happened up on top of that house?)
As I remember, one of the other things he did was to use 3/4" plywood for all the exterior sheathing, both walls and roof. Which is fine, it's his house, he should feel like he's building it well. But naturally, not being at all experienced in construction, he never took this into account when ordering his doors and windows, so whoever wound up finishing the house got to deal with miles and miles of 1/4"-3/8" extention jambs.
He's actually a great guy whom I really like a lot, but boy am I glad that I wasn't around to help him with it during the course of construction! I remember looking the thing over and pretty much deciding that he pretty much almost doubled the cost of building the house with all the over-engineering. Between the material costs and having to pay all that inexperienced help for the months that it took them to frame it. (He's certainly not a jerk, I'm sure he paid those kids a pretty decent wage for their time.) And now that it's all done (I hope), I'm certain that he's quite happy with the final result, and can feel pretty good about having designed and built his own house.
Of course, at the same time, I had designed and built my own house (roughly the same size) in less than one third the time, for probably less than one third the money with mostly just my wife and I working on it while both of us also working full time jobs." If I were a carpenter"
never seen that, but I am interested in using nascor I joice for rafters.
How's the new house coming? Haven't seen your name on the board in a while, staying busy?
Yeah real busy. I am sorry I have not droped you a line, but thanks again for all of the help. If you want let me know where I can meet you and drop off your tools and coats to you. The house is going to get sprayed with cellulose right after Christmas and I am just strarting on the siding. It has been very heacktic but I guess it is self inflicted. How is the buisness over in that plat you are woring on.
The subdivision is moving along quickly, I have been putting in alot of hours lately trimming them out to try and get one homeowner in by Christmas and another in by New Years. Plaster gets started on the third one next week.
The road is getting put in and I am waiting on another foundation until the road is done. The GC that I was originally building the houses for sold the subdivision and the new owner wants me to build the remaining homes so I am still in good shape there.
I hear you on the self inflicted hectic schedule, I keep taking jobs on and right now I am buried for a long time. I just started a 1,200 sq roof last week and I will be there for awhile.
I am glad to hear that you house is moving along nicely, got an idea on a move in date? Good luck on your house and have a good holiday.
I haven't set a move in date don't want to really but I guess I will be in by the middle of spring.
Good thing you are able to find so much work. A lot of people are slow right now.
Did that one builder ever pay up? That was a lot of change he owed you.
I am hoping that this freakish warm weather will stick around long enough for me to get in a couple of good siding days, but I cant complain if we don't we have been fortunate this far.
Hope things continue to go well. and merry Christmas!
I was hoping to get a big jump on that shingle job too with the warm weather but it just didn't work out that way.
That builder didn't pay up yet, hopefully soon. I have had to replace my furnace and hot water heater in the last two weeks and it has left me feeling a little dry, along with christmas my wallet is now being used as a table leg shim. LOL
He called and wanted to work out a payment plan in the next week. I am not sure how well that is going to work out.
I see that alot of people are slow now, I guess that I am just lucky. Hows your company doing? Are they slowing down at all?
Yeah we slowed down and laid off a couple of people. But it was time to see them go anyway. Working out a payment plan sound iffy but that may be a sign that he is not going to come into the money all at once or is in trouble. If you could get a third party involved that could accept the transacions and keep a total of money paid that would make it clear for everyone. Also if and only if he is in toulble or going under, a payment plan might not be bad to get waht you can before it is swept under the rug. Just my 2 cents, hope the roof goes well talk to ya soon.
Are they 16" o.c. or 24" o.c.?
;-)
Well, they happen to be 16 on center, but I am sure that relates to load, and has nothing to do with straigtness. ;-)
Gene,
When I priced out doing a frame with LSL rafters, it was $6/foot!!! So we went with I-joists.
I know LVL, what is LSL?
LVL = Laminated Veneer Lumber
LSL = Laminated Strand Lumber
TrusJoist makes some (maybe all) their LSL in a huge plant in Brainerd, MN. The wood source is an aspen species that is a fast growing weed tree growing all across mid-upper MN. When I was on a tour there once, I saw what looked like 150 acres of log decks, which is what mills call the huge outdoor log piles that await processing inside.
Beside the decks, and on rail cars, the log supply at the mill looked like about 15 or 20 TRAINLOADS of material, but I was told that there was a completely sustainable supply of wood growing within a 75 mile radius of the mill.
Logs are debarked, then run through a shredding process, resulting in long strands of wood fiber. These are brought to the press operation in a process which coats them first with the urea-based binders and coatings, then orients them as they go down into the platen area from above. Large continuous billets of hot pressed material come out of the line and the billet is surfaced, sized, and cut as the process goes downstream.
Rimboard stock and structural stock are made from the huge blanks, which come in thicknesses of 1" up to maybe 3".
Edited 12/19/2006 4:09 pm ET by Gene_Davis
LSL is laminated strand lumber; think OSB as dimensional lumber.I framed a house with nothing but LSL's for smaller headers and roof rafters, including the doubles and valley rafters. They were heavy and impossible to nail into, like concrete. They weigh all most as much as a wet 2x12, much more than a dry one. We had to predrill into each rafter, and use a pneumatiic palm nailer for each nail, and it still wasn't quite enough.Never again, I will use I-joists.
Got any pics? I'd love to see the roof. LSL and LVL are a bear to pull nails out of, which is good if its right :-) Recip time if it's not.
Unfortunately, I don't have any specific photos of the LSL's. It would have been a great thought though.
"They were heavy and impossible to nail into, like concrete. They weigh all most as much as a wet 2x12, much more than a dry one. We had to predrill into each rafter, a"That sounds more like LVLs than LSL.The LSL I have used is barely heavier than SPF and fairly easy to nail into. In appearance, it is more stringy looking than osb, lineally
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