I received and interesting email from from recent my former employer. But first, some background. Pull up a chair!
Soon after I was laid off in the beg. of Jan, he asked me to quote him labor on a few tile installs.
So I figured what the heck, it takes all of ten minutes or so per bath. Sent him the quotes never heard back.
Now, he’s had this “tile guy” doing installs for the company since early last summer I’d say. The guy is a hack, and a pig to boot. If anyone did tile work for me like that I’d kick his
right out the door. I could fill a page with the atrocities this man has&
#160;commited in peoples homes.
Now, in the last year or so leading up to my being laid off, that co. had several “special” tile jobs that needed doing, and the boss made it clear to me that there was no way he was going to let XXXXXX do those jobs, he was going to have me do them.
I’m slow when it comes to tile work especially when it involves knee walls, return walls, let in seats and soap niches in the shower and lots of complicated layout and cutting. I’ll post some pics here for all to judge. The ex boss and I had been down this road several times about my speed/quality and he knew very well as I did that unless he figured in higher numbers on the tile work, he’d be cutting himself close or short on the tile work I did.
Main benefit to me doing it was that we never had warrantee issues and always had smiling clients. I spent many hours attempting to “fix up” this othere guys work.
The email this a.m. refferenced a project I had quoted a price on:
GOOD MORNING
“When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking.” — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Edited 4/10/2009 2:30 pm ET by EricPaulson
Replies
I'd just save yourself some time and refuse to submit bids to him. It's kinda obvious to you that he is what he is.
You know.............I left out one of the best parts. A month or so after getting layed off, the tile guys calls me (my title was PM) looking for tile for the such and such project. I'm like, I don't work there anymore!! OH? No-one told me!
Good communicative organization.
And I did tell the ex that all he wanted me to do was bid against the hack then don't even bother asking. No way I can compete against a guy whose is basically working PT while his wife brings home the dough.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Now go tell the hack that he offered you the job at $X.XX. Driving wedges between people can be fun sometimes!
Good thought!
I do have ethics and I like to stand above folks like him.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Good on you. I was saying that in jest of course. Seems like any time spent bidding on this donkeys jobs is time wasted.
Judging from what youve wrote so far ,...
It looks like the divorce is final anyway.
I never had much pleasure sleeping with EXs.
Tim
I never had much pleasure sleeping with EXs.
Tim
I'm thinking rez that this has award written all over it.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Tim has an award named after him so don't know if he can receive an award or not. Have to think on it.
What, you working for Taunton now?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
That line there deserves a Piffinsnork Award!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If he's presenting, probably be a cold day in hell for that happens.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
My reply to his solicitation:
Thanks for considering me xxxxxxx.
I'm too damn slow to do it for that price. We both know that well.
I appreciate your consideration. Please keep me in mind for future projects.
Eric
His response:
GOOD EVENING
I AM NOT SLOW AT ALL..........LOTS GOING ON HERE....................SO............... I TAKE IT AS A NO ..............YOU RATHER STAY HOME THEN WORK????????????....................GOOD FOR YOU......................................LATER
xxxxxxxxx
KING OF THE ROAD
REMEMBER THAT!!!!!!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I can't figure out where he ever got the idea that I suggested things were slow............duh.
One day he'll figure out where the shift key is. Then in about another 50 yrs or so he might figure out what to do with it.
King of the Road...............wtf?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
If you think you may need some work tossed your way from him at some point E-mail back clear up the slow part, that business is not slow you have enough work. By slow you meant your are more careful, strive towards a perfect job and you take longer to complete a job and sf per hour you will not make enough at his price.Other wise if you don't need any bones tossed your way forget about it and move on. Your guy reminds me of a realtor I worked for once, called me back for another job, thought it was because he new the quility of my work he wanted me to do it as long as I was in reason price wise. While I am standing there two other guys show up to bid each on the same job, I have no problem with getting more then one bid but at least get the other guy in after the first leaves. He was just looking for the lowest cheapest price, and wanted us to know it by having all three of us there at the same time so we would all low ball it, I think he even introduced me to them and said that they were there to bid on the same job, I don't play that game, never even gave him a bid.Wallyo
Edited 4/10/2009 10:31 pm by wallyo
Oh, he understood perfectly what I meant about slow. We've had the conversation more than once and in his letter to me laying me off he made sure I was to understand that it wasn't for lack of work but because I was to slow and picky for him to make money on.
This after two other guys were layed off and the designer and admin hours were cut back.
No, we aren't slowing down!
I try not to burn bridges. But I am watching him do it.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
does he ride ? is the king of the road bit a reference to kickin your #### ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No, he doesn't ride.
Every single firggin thing in life with him boils down to a pissing contest and who walks away with the cash.
Sorta a Dale Carnegie thing ;^)
He's exhausting to watch.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
King of the Road = "Man of means by no means"
Roger Miller Song
Eric, you did the right thing. While this guy may be making business he clearly can't sustain in this market. Paybacks are hell.
He'll call you in a few months to clean up his messes ... and you'll politely take the job, at YOUR rate, on YOUR schedule.
(BTW, I have the same sig tagline on another board, but the author is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle...http://thinkexist.com/quotation/when-the-spirits-are-low-when-the-day-appears/365706.html )
and you worked for him for four years....
as my brother always quotes to me...
I'm surprised you're.... surprised...
I know I'm tight... but i never argue prices... i take it or leave it... or ask if it can be done for my budget...
My sparky is slow... real slow... wants to be paid by the hour.... i quit doing that... we discuss the scope of work to be done... and agree on a price for that work... period... that way no one is mad... i have another sparky that does 2x the work for half the price... but he's not a master elect. so i have to toss the master a bit of work.. but.. i hate it... his work is not as good for more than 2x the price...
part of life
i just suck it up:)
P
kingoftheroad LOL
Thanks for the response pony.
I'm not really surprised. Amazed, possibly frustrated.
I'm blogging I suppose.
I really can't believe what idiots some people can be, it truly amazes me.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I'm reminded of stupidity everytime I'm driving.
Sounds like we know the same guy! :) Someday I will punch him out !
Someday I will punch him out !
I have my fantasy. Fortunately for me my violent days are long gone. I can't belive he's gotten this far with out someone kicking his as.
Karma gets him though, I've seen it.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Tell him "You pay peanuts you will get monkeys"
my violent days are long gone
I'm always willing to help a brother out. :)
u take credit cards?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
It means more to do it for free . :)
you're hired.
Meet me in the alley.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
What a Jerk...
What a coniving liar - or - greedy bastid.
If things are so busy, Why's he squeezin' so hard. I don't have all the info, but I'm guessin' that he aint long for this world buisness wise. He's gonna be on the news cryin' for assistance soon...
I love this; -YOU RATHER STAY HOME THEN WORK??????????
Answer - Yes, I would rather stay here and get My own stuff done, and break even, than come and do your stuff and break even - or spend my time at a possible loss...( at least after I do my stuff and break even I am in a better position to advance to the next level)
Pound the pavement, and keep the faith Eric, Work hard at intelligent projects and you'l be OK.
Don't let it get so far that you'll work for wages that undercut the wage, once you start doing that, you'll be screwing us all as well as yourself.
As far as your reply to him - I found it professional, courteous, and appropriate, good for you.
You've obviously outgrown this dude's situation. Leave him behind and get started tomorrow on your next chapter....Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
If things are so busy, Why's he squeezin' so hard.
And why has he cut his filed staff in half? He refuses to admit that the slowdown has affected his company.
He's pretty much run himself out of business a few times just by using up all the available leads in a geogrphic location. This time he is much more spread out and advertizes a lot.
He's hangin on by a thread just like many other people.
Thanks for the encouragement and good words. I appreciate that.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Here's what I glean out of all that.First - you should have said, "I'm too good to work for half price. I'm not a retailer trying to dump overstock."
By saying you are too slow you focus on a negative.His schedule may not be slow at all, but that usually comes from bidding cheap instead of selling well on good reputation for god work. Good rep brings in customers less interested in price and more concerned for quality. It might be possible to remind him of that and ask which he is really interested in - or to point out that he is showing what his interest is, tho that would certainly drive the last nail in the coffin on this relationship.King of the road? I think he is saying
"Hit the road, Jack!
And dontcha come back no more no more no more no more...."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We've had the conversation about my speed more than once. He made sure I knew how slow he thought I was in a note he wrote me. Good, excellent craftsman, but too sloww.
He's happy when he has a check in his hand. Period. He really does not give a hoot how the work got done or the end result as long as the customer writes the check.
I'm getting the feeling that this aprticular client is expecting me to do the tile work. I've done work at her home before. That's why he was trying to get me there........but he used vinegar instaed of honey.
What he could have wrote:
Eric,
You recently quoted me a price on the xxxproject. It is a bit higher than I would like to pay, but as you know I appreciate the quality of your work as well as my clients.
I'd really like to have you do this job for me. Is there any room for negotion on the price?
XXXXX
That is a professional way to deal with a sub. Like I said, would he try that with any of the other subs?
Thanks for your input Paul.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Edited 4/11/2009 8:37 am ET by EricPaulson
Eric,
I'd tell him yes there is room for negotiations - you really should get a bit more after you refigured !
Walter
You could stoop to his level and give YOUR price to the client directly. Then they will see how much he is marking you up.
I'd never go there.
It's a whole bath remodel. Tile is just a prt of the project.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
After reading his letter all I could think was...this is a sign from above. Someone's warning me to stay away. It's happened to me before in different situations and I was always glad I stayed away. Just remember...it can always be a whole lot worse and when you feel clouded by your inner frustrations sometimes you lose track.
Sounds to me like he's the kind of guy that can have everyone working..then declare bankruptcy and no one gets paid. Seems like the kind of guy you read about thats a big talker but who knows what goes on behind his closed doors and big mouth.
BTW...my letter back to him wouldn't have been inthe form of any explanation...or at least not much of one. It'd be the same kind of comments I make when I try and get a job with customers. I'd just let them know the high quality of my work. that I take the time to be sure everything comes out as perfect as perfect can be and that I care about my work...my signature will last on it for generations....and thats that.
If he has a way to speed up your work by doing X Y or Z let him tell you how b/c there are ways and it's his job.
Be well
andy
edit: as an example I'm finishing up another bathroom...a powder room in that same house. The floor was was goin over was brick in cement. I was going to lay some thinset down as a slim coat.....then thinset down Ditra. even bought the bag of Ditra. Then I thought..why not try to put down leveling compound (not SLC) b/c its way stickier and dries way harder then thinset. So I did that. Took less then a bag $23. the floor looked pretty good when it was dry...I then returned the $100 bag of Ditra. Same time to lay down the thinset before the Ditra to put down the LC but I got to skip the Ditra step and saved almost $100. Little things..ya know?
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 4/11/2009 9:39 am ET by andybuildz
Thanks Andy!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Are you able to work in NYC or closer to it, or is that just too far away? I would advise you to try and market yourself away from this crummy level....I mean with this type of person.The best thing to do is to shake the dust off your feet with people like this. They've got the rope in their hands and maybe the noose is even tied. It's only a matter of time. It's hard not to be pizzed off at something like this, but you know what they say about the sun and anger. Seems what you're doing in here is the right thing, venting. Also seems to me that you have the right mind set.Karma really is the thing. The more you work for or are in the company of this type, the more they rub off on you and /or get to you. God knows I speak from experience.
I see people so wrapped up in their little lives and anger which is all they appear to have room for. There are only so many hours in the day.The best kind of retribution is for you to release a person like him, because then they have nothing to grab you with, nothing to hang over you, no power over you. When they know this is when they suffer the most.
After that, you can choose (or not) to take the next step and try to imagine what it must be like to be them and what a miserable existence they must have within. You might be surprised at what may happen after that.
The best kind of retribution is for you to release a person like him, because then they have nothing to grab you with, nothing to hang over you, no power over you. When they know this is when they suffer the most.
Good words. I've come to that realization. I'd equate our relationship it to a bad marriage. Time to end it.
We've been through many of years off and on. I started in the bus. when I was 20 with his dad. Was good friends and sorta partners with his younger brother for a number of years.
We simple don't have a lot in common and when we are in a relationship it is a constant struggle to maintain it.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
That much history explains a lot. I was wondering why you seemed to have so much emotion invested in what is simply a short business relationship with an ego.I read him much like Andy.His headstone should read, "The world revolved around me. How will it ever stay in orbit now?"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
His headstone should read, "The world revolved around me. How will it ever stay in orbit now?"
That pretty much says it. This is the end of the road for us. My relationship with his younger brother pretty much ended years ago under similiar (work related) but different circumstances. We were pretty tight way back in our younger years.
Framed a lot of houses together during the 80's. We were quite a team and we worked together like a well directed orchestra. Ran together in the bars and girls thing for a while too.
####, that was forever ago.
My wife often reminds me that people come and people go in our lives. Silly, but she's right.
Close the door. Open another.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Eric, I just went through a very similar situation myself... Kvetch about it for a couple a days and move on. Otherwise, you are still letting the bastid control your life.Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
From the story you told me worse.
I'm done for the most part.
I went to see him yesterday and made it clear to him that we are simple different people, we don't see eye to eye on a lot of issues concerning business and that it's time for us to move on our seperate ways.
I really don't care how he felt about what I said and wether or not he was agreeable or just feigning it.
He is an evil despicable piece of ####. The sooner all my ties to him are severed the better for me.
What's up with the saw?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Well, I ordered a factory reconditioned DeWalt saw from a tool king. There was an additional discount available so the total price was $760 incl. shipping. The only (small) catch was, the saw(last one they had) is their showroom piece- no problemo, just throw in a T-shirt and be certain it's packed well.The saw arrived in 4 days and upon opening the box I observed that the saw was fully assembled and I should have asked for an XL t-shirt. Feeling a little uneasy about the lack of packing materials and my winter weight gain, I set the saw on some saw horses to check it out.I immediately noted that the saw head pivoted up but, the bar that locks the depth was broken, also the table was badly misaligned. I called the closest DeWalt service center and found that the part was on 6 week back order! I re-packed the saw better than when it was sent to me and called the seller.I explained to the nice customer service lady that the saw was broken, the part was unavailable, and if someone took the time to pack it properly, none of this would have happened. She began to tell me about their "weekly meetings with UPS...blah, blah" when she came up for air, I demanded a call tag and a refund. She relented and both were received in due time.Still needing a saw, I weighed my options and my checking account and ordered a new saw from Amazon ($300 cheaper than I could find locally). They had a shipping deal that promised 2 day shipping... I ordered the saw on a Friday, delivery promised Tuesday. I checked the tracking Friday night, the saw had left Amazon... No saw on Tues, I email Amazon their reply states I should wait 2 more days and if it doesn't show, contact them again!I called Amazon, " that item is too big for 2 day shipping" followed by, "I can't find any location scans since it left the fulfillment center". I explained I'm trying to run a small business , 2 day shipping was verified, etc. To make a really long story short I received the saw Friday and Amazon refunded me $20 for my "troubles".The saw is fine, it took me about 30 minutes to set it up and make a few adjustments. It's a little louder than I expected but the cuts are true. Runs through porcelain like butta... I can cut 1/8" full length rips. Though it kind of clashes with my new official trowel...
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out how this pertains to the OP. I generally think I'm pretty smart, but this has me totally flummoxed
Well, I ordered a factory reconditioned DeWalt saw from a tool king. There was an additional discount available so the total price was $760 incl. shipping. The only (small) catch was, the saw(last one they had) is their showroom piece- no problemo, just throw in a T-shirt and be certain it's packed well.
The saw arrived in 4 days and upon opening the box I observed that the saw was fully assembled and I should have asked for an XL t-shirt. Feeling a little uneasy about the lack of packing materials and my winter weight gain, I set the saw on some saw horses to check it out.
I immediately noted that the saw head pivoted up but, the bar that locks the depth was broken, also the table was badly misaligned. I called the closest DeWalt service center and found that the part was on 6 week back order! I re-packed the saw better than when it was sent to me and called the seller.
I explained to the nice customer service lady that the saw was broken, the part was unavailable, and if someone took the time to pack it properly, none of this would have happened. She began to tell me about their "weekly meetings with UPS...blah, blah" when she came up for air, I demanded a call tag and a refund. She relented and both were received in due time.
Still needing a saw, I weighed my options and my checking account and ordered a new saw from Amazon ($300 cheaper than I could find locally). They had a shipping deal that promised 2 day shipping... I ordered the saw on a Friday, delivery promised Tuesday. I checked the tracking Friday night, the saw had left Amazon... No saw on Tues, I email Amazon their reply states I should wait 2 more days and if it doesn't show, contact them again!
I called Amazon, " that item is too big for 2 day shipping" followed by, "I can't find any location scans since it left the fulfillment center". I explained I'm trying to run a small business , 2 day shipping was verified, etc. To make a really long story short I received the saw Friday and Amazon refunded me $20 for my "troubles".
The saw is fine, it took me about 30 minutes to set it up and make a few adjustments. It's a little louder than I expected but the cuts are true. Runs through porcelain like butta... I can cut 1/8" full length rips. Though it kind of clashes with my new official trowel...
Edited 4/12/2009 10:54 pm ET by McMark
He asked at the end of the previous post 118818.54...'What's up with the saw?' so I figgered he was just answering him.
Apparently it was a tie in from a differnt thread where the subject was broached.
Edited 4/12/2009 11:02 pm ET by rez
BTW, when you hear (second hand) that he practically saved your life and how he taught you all that you know, etc... resist the urge kill him. I was halfway my ex-boss' house, visualizing his severed head in my hands(I'm a big believer in visualization) when I turned around. I laughed the whole way home. I control my destiny, not that putz. He has to live up to the lies he told and pay for the laws he broke. His life is`a train wreck, not mine. To the folks that matter, that's obvious. I'm sure you'll find many people who are happy to hear you are not associated with the SOB any longer. Make sure they have your number, the phone will ring. Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
These two have got to be related.
He actually proclaimed out loud to one of his clients, in front of me mind you, that "I taught him everything he knows". This was milliseconds after the client had lavished my work with praise.
Who the hell does something like that even it it was true? Is that professionalism in action? Thanks for the fine compliment Mr. Smith. Our company strives to hire and retain talented craftsmen such as Eric. I'm sure I speak for Eric as well when I say we both appreciate that you are happy with the work.
Can't figure out how blue don't quite get it. Me thinks some here need to do a better job at reading.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Eric,
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking it personally--- in fact I think it's a good thing-especially for a craftsman---to take it personally.I take it personally everybody wants to "dicker" or beat me down in price-- i take it very personall and I find it insulting.hopefully i have learned to hide that better--- because I think how I react to it reflects more on me-than on the guy wanting to bargain. In your case------FNbentthayer is right-- kvetch for a day or so--and then move on from this mentally because to do otherwise can only reflect poorly on YOUremember---you worked for this guy for 4 years---and it sounds like you have known the guy even longer than that----so NOTHING the guy does should suprise you. you gotta downplay the " he is an evil despicable sob "rhetoric because if he is evil NOW- he was evil THEN remember-as recently as last fall--you were mentioning here how he was marketing,advertising and seemed to be doing all the right things---- but once he started laying people off you described him differently. Definitely take it personally- (I certainley would !)-- but as poorly as you were speaking of him here in January/Feruary---- I am suprised you would even quote work for him now or even return his calls/Emails.
I am sure something good will land in your lap soon-- best wishes,
stephen
Thanks Stephen,
You have a great memory. My posts about advertising and marketing were in the vain of what is good or done right................guy still doesn't know how to treat people as human beings and not commodities to be bargained and traded for.
Thanks again for the words of widom.
Eric
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
"I don't think there is anything wrong with taking it personally--- in fact I think it's a good thing-especially for a craftsman---to take it personally.
I take it personally everybody wants to "dicker" or beat me down in price-- i take it very personall and I find it insulting."
I certainly could agree that a craftsman should take it personally but my response to Eric was aimed directly at the person wearing a sales hat, not the craftman. Those are two different beasts. Guys like yourself who wears more than one hat need to find a way to separate the two personalities and know which role they are playing when they are out there doing their jobs.
Blue,
seperating those multiple hat wearing personas-- that's the key isn't it? when i worked primarily by myself-- very easy to take things personally--and still get away with it.- In fact-in hindsight-- it looks like I designed a business model purposely to allow myself to do EXACTLY that( note how many small tradesman are essentially un-employable in a conventional employment situation----un-believably poor personal skills etc.) for a few years now I have been trying to employ others AND vew things a bit differently in the process.2 examples from last week
1) guy is referred to me-needs a small flat roof re-done, a chimney re-flashed, and some apron flashing on the front porch. Prospect calls me up a week after I give him the proposal-primarily questioning the flat roof price which is much more than he paid to have it done poorly just a few years ago." do you have any room to move on this price--it's much more than I expected?" now in the past- I would have got insulted- I would have remained civil-- but almost certainley a snotty attitude would have crept into my tone--and that would have been that. This time-- I didn't allow myself to get insulted, simply stood firm on the price with out getting defensive---and the guy ended up saying"well-it's GOT to be done- how soon can you do it?"2)city service director from a nearby village calls. They are planning to re-roof the towns' Historical Society building. my track record is- that this is a low percentage closing situation for me---- the guy hasn't been referred by anyone- he is calling blind out of the phone book, it's a competitive bidding situation and I am not even licensed in his little village-- so in the past i might have simply refused to quoteBUT--- I am interested in old houses---and this is a greek revival building in the western reserve--which makes it about as old a house as you can get around here-- so I got together an info packet with my clippings/articles, a nice short cover letter, explained why my proposals' spec.s exceeded what he asked for---and wrote up a fair price.--- It's STILL a low percentage likilihood of closing--- but I am not gonna get insulted. If we get the project-it's not a big earner- but we are perfect for it---and if we don't get the project- i only have 1-1/2 hours invested in it.Stephen
The things discussed in this thread have been good for me to help keep an even keel.Had a call last night from a guy I've been dealing with. The foundation is failing. He was getting water in on the dirt cellar floor and thought the fix would be to pour a rat slab. One look and I could see he needed a whole wall replaced and redig perimeter drains and regrade. Lat night I gave him the price - between 18K and 22K depending what we find as we dig and how far the wall breaks away.He immediately started in telling how his FIL would recommend doing it,to save money. All those ideas were patches that would fail, IMO, AND this FIL is the guy who built it in the first place, partly responsible for the problems that exist today.So it ran thru my mind to just tell him to have Pappy do the work then and hang up.But, with this thread in mind, I said politely, here are some things to consider....and gave a brief analysis, then when he wanted to argue it further, I said, listen, I have something to get doing right now, so why not think about all this and we can talk again in a couple days.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
1) guy is referred to me-needs a small flat roof re-done, a chimney re-flashed, and some apron flashing on the front porch. Prospect calls me up a week after I give him the proposal-primarily questioning the flat roof price which is much more than he paid to have it done poorly just a few years ago." do you have any room to move on this price--it's much more than I expected?"
now in the past- I would have got insulted- I would have remained civil-- but almost certainley a snotty attitude would have crept into my tone--and that would have been that. This time-- I didn't allow myself to get insulted, simply stood firm on the price with out getting defensive---and the guy ended up saying"well-it's GOT to be done- how soon can you do it?"
See....even tradesmen can put on a sales hat if they make a conscience effort about it!
Asking for a lower price is a BUYING SIGNAL! Think about it...would a client ask for a discounted price from a roofer who he doesn't trust and has no intention of using? Of course not....he's asking you for a discount because he intends to use you! At that point, instead of being insulted, you should be proud and happy that you have effectively presented your company in such a manner that he is willing to choose you. Getting defensive at this point is exactly the wrong thing to do. So, when you stayed calm and just explained that there isn't any room to move on the price, he has to make a decision....and he already knows he wants to use you. HE HAS TO SELL HIMSELF.
At that point...the difference between what he wants to pay, and what you want to do the job is probably very little. Someone with sales experience like Frenchy, would pull a line out of his sales bag of tricks to get the lead to understand how much he is risking by using someone of a lessor quality to save such a little bit of money.
For instance, if the guy is seeking a concession of $1000, and the life of the roof is ten years, you might point out that for thirty cents a day, you are protecting the one of the most valuable investments and it will be easier to sleep knowing that the roof is done perfectly, exactly to the manufacturer's specifications which protects the warranty.
The guy now starts realizing that he is making a 30 cent decision on a 400k house!
Now please, understand that there are fifty responses to the price negotiation objection and the one you use should fit you own personality perfectly and be spoken in exactly the right tone. You need to know the response you will use before you present the proposal and you probably can use the same one every time. I'll reiterate: a request for a lower price is a buying signal!
Of course, not everyone CAN pay for the level of service that you offer, so some people will have to say no to you because they don't have the money. It's simple economics. In that case, you can't really blame them for wanting your service at the price THEY can afford, can you?
your last paragraph describes what I suspect will happen with the historical society roof
competitive bid----city official---- he opens the bids and probably by law has to take the lowest one-----which almost certainley won't be MINE- because I intentionally outlined work over and above HIS listed items so-he probably CAN'T accept my price----- but I want him to WANT to accept it. If he can't- he cant't---no need for me to get insulted.
stephen
"he opens the bids and probably by law has to take the lowest one"A lot of places have wised up enough to have established a policy of automatically throwing out the lowest bid when there are three or more bids
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I'll reiterate: a request for a lower price is a buying signal! "
How much money did I lose over the years by not realizing this? I, though lack of confidences, always waffled on this.
Thanks
How much money did I lose over the years by not realizing this? I, though lack of confidences, always waffled on this.
never give a concession without asking for and getting a concession.
and have your counter point ... and counter, counter point ... already figured out.
guy I learned to sell from always said ... never give nothing without getting something.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I agree Jeff. I think it's a great strategy to have the point and counterpoint planned. I also agree that you shouldn't give up anything without getting something.
I like to slip in a few easy options in the proposal too. Often, I might pick up a tidbit in the interview about something they might like, but then they say "no...don't bother pricing that". Since they mentioned it, I still put a price on it as an option. Then, when I get to the bottom line, I include the option. This gives me an easy "takeaway" with the corresponding price reduction. Sometimes, they buy the entire package. Sometimes, they add the option when the project gets going and they can see that it makes sense.
Man, that is one excellent piece of advice.
Sonny would be proud!
Blue,
" asking for a lower price is a buying signal"This ,I think, is something often repeated by sales gurus--which may or may not be actually true------and if it IS true---it still may not be helpfull.Let's say your prospective customer has 4 or 5 proposals----and they call YOU up and ask" do you have any room to move on this price?" Is that really a buying signal?--- the prospect may in fact be calling ALL 4 or 5 contractors and asking the same thing AND- I believe if you budge on price at THIS stage------ and you get the job---the customer will try more and more of the same" can you throw THIS in, Can you help me with THAT"etc. In my case- there is another issue.
I operate as a seasonal business. For 2009 I will work 33 weeks and average 4 days per week. PeriodI know my overhead, my planned investments, my living expenses etc.
I know what my employees will cost etc. On march 19, I wrote a proposal for a prospective customer. Prospect came as a STRONG referall from one of last years customers and I have already closed a deal with ANOTHER referall from that same previous customer---so this is a promising lead------prospective customer sold a business several years ago and retiredhis home is in the historic area of a very wealthy area his home is adjacent to a private school where the yearly tuition exceeds the value of my first home customer also owns another home out of state clearly the customer is well off.
we discussed his project in considerable detail-including how the landscaping and siding would be amply protected-- unlike his out of state experince when guatemalans roofed his vacation home---------- very long in depth conversationwe sit down in his house----customer asks me if there is any room to move on my price--- I politely decline. customer informs me-that if he had to decide that day-- his decision would have to be to go with someone else--because conserving his resources was an important factorLast evening he called-- his message is still on my answering machine. He was VERY grascious-very complementary, described how thorough and professional our experience was together and his every confidence in my ability to do a tremendous jobBUT
he was making arrangements to have another contractor to do the project. now--- if his question on 3-19-09" is there any room to move on this price" was a buying signal- I don't see how that helps me.
I know my numbers-and lowering the price---- doesn't do anything for me
Lowering my price-means the money has to come from somewhere
do I fire my employees-and hire the unsatisfactory guatemalans?
do I not pay my sons tuition? do I not make my planned investments, Not pay taxes?-WHERE is the money to come from/ Since NONE of those things are an option--what is left?work an additional week to subsidize this guy's roof?- not going to happen!He has his needs- i have mine- if the coincide- great--if they don't--well that happens also. I actually enjoyed the entire experience and learned a lot that will help me in the future but-- I don't see how I was ever going to close this deal--despite the "buying signal" some other time--- I will talk about what exactly i learned from this guy--- because at that time-with-in a week of each other-- 2 very similar men taught me much the same things. time to walk the Labradors--- in suitably labrador weather
stephen
Well set up a new post about what your learned, I am dying to hear.
With regard to your post, I am very much like you when it comes to my prices-my price is my price-I do not enjoy negotiating and get put off when some one suggest that perhaps I could lower my price. I have learned to restrain my disdain for remarks, but I am just not wired to haggle.
Guys like Jim are designed and wired to negotiate and God Bless them-I just can't do it.
Bruce
Actually Bruce, I'm not really wired for negotiating but I don't run from it either. I can't say that it bothers me when someone asks for a lower price. To me, its just human nature. Some people always ask...other pay full price and miss out on discounts all the time.
I think most times in this remodeling biz, I'm proposing firm prices so negotiations aren't really possible...to some extent. The biggest impediment is that I'm laying down a 10 page contract and the numbers are all in it including a four tier payment schedule.
I took a few jobs last year and agreed to a discount with mixed results. The first lady ended up being one of those people I should have walked on. The second lady was nice and the job was profitable and I'd do it again. After getting to know her, I realized that she was just following a business plan on a flip and she had to hit that number to make sense of it all. I cut her the discount then went to work scaling down the project everywhere I could. I guess in that sense then, I really didn't discount...instead I changed the scope. And, all along the way, we stuck to the lower budget items and she basically got what she paid for.
Inthe end, I still let her know that the orignal bid was the right number and she would have had a much nicer house if she had allowed that budget. She was happy neverthe less and will use me on her next flip. She's a little more educated now about the lower priced components though LOL.
I agree that helping folks modify the scope to meet their budget is an important skill and I don't have issues with that. The challenge I have is when you get the I can get it done for XX% less with the other guy.
I used to start asking if the other was doing this or that and the answer was usually "I don't know but I am sure he will do a good job". I try to educate the consumer and in most cases I am not competing against the other guy, but when I do I lose so I don't invest alot of time in it.
I recently lost a whole house remodel about $350k was my price, the other guy is doing it for $250K. Best of luck.
We really need to do lunch soon.
Bruce
I used to start asking if the other was doing this or that
I've made that same mistake. Its not really a great question because you don't know what the answer is going to be.
If you have set the table properly and presented yourself well and demonstrated value, you've probably done all that you can do and the reality is....you ain't going to win them all. There are a lot of people that would take a chance at 250k instead of hiring you at $350k.
I think a better question might be "where do we have to be to get your business?" At that point, the client would have to put a number out there and if you've prepared properly you might have a few items that you could pull out of the scope to get to the budget.
If someone told me they were getting the remodel at 250k when I knew I needed 350k, I'd probably just hit em with the "Good things aren't cheap and cheap things aren't good." Then, I'd wish them good luck and pack up and head out.
I won't have a break for another week or so. I've been getting home after dark...except on American Idol days when I get home by 7. After next week, I might be able to eat a lunch sometime.
hiker,
I will try to set up another post on this over the weekend- probably sunday rained out mon.,tues., weds. this week---- got to work thursday,fri., sat.-to get some semblance of back on trackstephen
yea, what hiker said. I'm dyin to learn as well.
it's all part of the sales technique.
He's already got you wanting something he has.................
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Zig does teach that technique...holding something back till after the money is discussed.
Even though the results weren't positive...for you...it still was a buying signal. He wanted to buy from you but couldn't/wouldn't because your price was too high. Those things happen.
You probably weren't going to close that deal because your numbers didn't jive with his budget. He was gracious enough to give you a chance at hitting his numbers but you declined. That is your prerogative and that is what you did. No one can fault you. Fortnately for you, you know you will fill your schedule without his work. Kudos to you.
I am curious though about why you didn't decline to lower the price but ask him what number he was seeking....just FYI. If the guy only needed $100 concession, would your have moved that much?
blue,
the project as I proposed--was a $26K roof replacementmoving $100,or $200, or $300--would mean nothing---- I am certain if that was the price difference that particular prospect wouldn't have even brought it up I have to assume-----he needed something more like a $7K "move" in price----and there is no way that i COULD do that----nor WOULD i if it was possible the person who referred me to this prospect---- bought at a similar number-AND also referred me to a 3rd prospect--who also bought at a similar number---- these projects are at the upper range of what I do. the gentleman who politely turned me down----has a somewhat technically more difficult project( for example he has an attached green house that needs to be protected during tear-off)-- so I am not terribly sad to miss this project. I think-- he sold his business and retired in 2005 or 2006. doing the math---- he probably invested the money feeling confident he was set for life----and then a market crash in 2008 changes things for him. the message( which is STILL on my answering machine) again mentions"these perilous times"
gotta run
stephen
It's obvious that this particular client was going to buy on price. You never had a shot at it unless you were going to subsidize him. Congrats on being in position to say no.
"Soon after I was laid off in the beg. of Jan, he asked me to quote him labor on a few tile installs.
So I figured what the heck, it takes all of ten minutes or so per bath. Sent him the quotes never heard back"
"Can't figure out how blue don't quite get it. Me thinks some here need to do a better job at reading."
I think I did a pretty good job at reading. I've reposted the first two sentences of this thread and nothing after that really matters. Those two sentences lay the foundation of my replys to you.
Now...I've got to say...just like your former boss..."Don't take it personal!". You seem to have a tendency to do that. Maybe there's a pattern here?
So, I have to question myself..."...would I offer to quote some work for a guy that I've worked for and hate?..." For me, now, the answer is simple. NO. I wouldn't waste my ten minutes. Would I have quoted that work 15 years ago? Yes. The difference is that I've learned to say no...one of the most important lessons that I had to learn.
That said, we come to the next issue....sales. As a sales professional, I'm not going to treat it casually and I'm not going to take it personal if I don't close the deal. I'm more of a realist nowadays and I realize that I'm not going to be a good fit for every lead. Sometimes it will be price. Sometimes it will be personalities. Sometimes their needs don't jive with my skills and services. There are literally dozens of impediments to the sale.
So, how do I react when someone wants to cut my price because I'm too expensive? I just laugh and toss them one of Zig's lines "Good things aren't cheap and cheap things aren't good." So, if I ever happen to quote a job for your ex boss, I'm sure he'll ask me to cut my price in half too....and I'll just hit him up with that line as I'm heading out the door. I won't take it personal because it doesn't matter to me. I don't mind negotiating and doing the back and forth thing but I also know that when a guy wants to offer me half of what I've quoted, we are much too far apart in our needs to bother wasting any time or energy or emotions on the deal. It ain't gonna happen and I'm happy that I have that figured out so quickly in the negotiating process.
So, my replies to you were intended to help you see the situation for what it really was/is. You knew what the guy was like and the results were predictable...yet you let him suck you in on a bid. Your mistake was, if you decided to bid the work, was that you didn't discuss the labor budget with him before you decided to bid. You could have nipped the entire episode in the bud by warning him that your labor was probably going to be twice as much as his current tile guy so there would be no point in wasting the time "bidding".
No matter what, its not personal. Its business.
Your mistake was, if you decided to bid the work, was that you didn't discuss the labor budget with him before you decided to bid. You could have nipped the entire episode in the bud by warning him that your labor was probably going to be twice as much as his current tile guy so there would be no point in wasting the time "bidding".
Blue, This statement by itself tells me you either did not read ALL of the posts or you missed something.
I'm supposed to discuss a "labor budget" with him? Isn't that why you collect bids to get an accurate labor budget? If not, then (he) an contractor may just as well pull numbers out of a hat.
And (this is the big part of the thread that you totally missed) he was/is well aware of my pace and quality. I complete work of a relatively high caliber. It takes a bit more time than a hack job. I usually don't have call backs or warantee work. When I'm done, I'm done. Doorknob gets polished on the way out. He knows this Blue.
Yet you keep trying to tell me that I need to be a salesman towards this guy? There was something I needed to "warn" him about??? huh?
If you read through the thread you would have gotten the part about a long standing personal relationship. Sorry you missed it.
I may be a bit sensitive and I need to work on that. But I rather be accused any day of being sensitive than be accused of being a callous jerk. I strive to be a kind and caring person. Most folks tend to appreciate a person with such traits. I know my family does, and most of the people I've worked for have commented as much.
I just need to learn better to stear away from those that don't appreciate my positive traits.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Blue, This statement by itself tells me you either did not read ALL of the posts or you missed something.
I'm supposed to discuss a "labor budget" with him? Isn't that why you collect bids to get an accurate labor budget? If not, then (he) an contractor may just as well pull numbers out of a hat.
And (this is the big part of the thread that you totally missed) he was/is well aware of my pace and quality. I complete work of a relatively high caliber. It takes a bit more time than a hack job. I usually don't have call backs or warantee work. When I'm done, I'm done. Doorknob gets polished on the way out. He knows this Blue.
Yes...now you are getting the point exactly.
If you are going to do business you have to learn how to quickly move past those clients that aren't a good fit for your business model. You knew before you bid the job that your ex prefers to work with subs that price their services at the low end of the scale. You also knew that your level of service doesn't fit into his realm of reality. So, in order to maximize your effort, you needed to point these things out again before you bothered to work up a bid. Essentially, you are "prequalifying" your old boss. You are saying to him "...you and I both know that your current tile guy will give you a great price; much better than I will so I need to know that there is some reason why you would choose me to do the work even though my price will be twice as high as the other guy."
By discussing the budget early in the game, you get to eliminate the tire kickers. In your case, you know exactly what the situation is but you need to set it straight with HIM. If he can't get on board with upping his mental budget to accomodate the extra time that you know it takes to do a good job, then there is no point in "bidding" the work...therefore, there is no reason to personally get up upset.
You don't have to participate in this guys game of "collecting bids" but if you do decide to attempt to get the work, you need to play the game from the beginning to the end if you really want a shot at getting the work. That means you need to prequalify and in that process, sell your services. Prove to him that ultimately, your higher level of services is a greater value, in the long run, than the lower priced guy.
Not everyone will buy into that idea. Thats why I keep telling you that it's not personal ....it's business!
I just need to learn better to stear away from those that don't appreciate my positive traits.
EXACTLY! Now you are understanding it from my perspective. Concentrate your efforts on those leads that you actually have a chance at getting, or throw in the towel and lower your wage demands and ....
Not long after pricing those jobs I told him that he was still getting bids from the pig he was using previously, to not waste my time because I know I am not going to be competitive on $.
He hasn't since asked for prices on anything.
In this episode he was eithe trying to zing me or he had a need to have me do the job and thought he could hook me. Judging from the emails he sent me back I think it was the latter cause he didn't seem to happy.
I will NEVER, EVER run a remodeling business and hire subs based on price alone. Never!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Dude......What an ash whole ! If you never have another job again (and you will) you're still better off not working for such a dickweed. I thought I'd seen it all but that one takes the prize....I've never met the guy and I want to kick his sorry tail.....Naive but refreshing !
'slow' is the wrong term. You need to say 'meticulous with a strong need to pay attention to detail'
haha. I think I used to work for that guy too.
I know the type.
Stay away, you're better off.
If I was working for Taunton I'd rip that silly huge blue masthead off the top of the page fast as the pace Eric's exboss wants him to work at.
Good reason to start getting into the habit of using the 'open in new window' option.
Reread Tim's line and have to admit it was pretty good.
Congratulations! TimMooney receives the "That Ain't Bad' Award.
Saaalute! View Image View Image
Eric- 'I could fill a page with the atrocities this man has commited in peoples homes.' Sounds like that'd be an interesting new thread. hint hint
he has more rules than rewards...so I'd say: yup he's on the lowes dole...;).
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
You just want to be RIGHT!
I AM right.I want OTHER people to:A) Recognize this2) Try and be right more often (by asking me what is right)III) Leave me alone if you can't do A + 2I don't ask for a lot........
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Remind him that you can go broke staying home too - but you'll be a lot more comfortable.
You offered him a fair price .... you want good, you pay for it ... you want cheap, you get it.
Remind him that you can go broke staying home too - but you'll be a lot more comfortable.
vs enduring the agravation of working for him and putting money in his pocket at the same time! Why should I bother?
He's pissed cause I know that.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
the simple answer is he wants your quality for the price of the hacks
you cannot lower yourself to the point where the hack is quoting your jobs.
I had a doctor call me for an estimate on a bath remodel on a referal from his realtor. he asked that I be there at a certain time. then 3 other guys walked in and the doc said "OK, which one of you is going to give me the best price?"
the other 3 had the same mortified look on their face. I said "which ever of you is stupid enough to work for this guy is welcomed to the work", and I walked out. one of the other guys followed me out the door
MaverickDon't know if you read every post but that is almost what happened to me see(118818.14).
Sounds like your doc was a bit more bold about it. I might find it a bit uncomfortable but if I was told in advance that was the case ( other guys showing up at the same time, HO wants to explain scope only once) I don't have a problem. But to be set up and not told in advance as a courtesy that is where I have a problem with that tactic. If told in advance I have the option of not showing and wasting time my time. When put on the spot one could walk out too but I have already spent time driving there.Wallyo
Edited 4/11/2009 1:30 pm by wallyo
I like that story .... but for one detail ....
Customers shop around all the time, and I must confess that I see nothing wrong with the practice. Where I think the error is made is when anyone thinks work has become a commodity.
In other words, there's a reason your work sells at a different price than the other guys'. The challenge for you is that the customer understand the differences, and choose the one that is more appropriate.
The difference might be something as simple as your paying extra attention to details that let the floor drain better.
I tell people 'my stuff works.' Nothing flashy. For a recent job, they could have had a flashy contractor appear, and do the job in a few days. Or, they could have me do it on a 'fill in' basis, and make an extra effort to minimize their expenses. The customer chose me, and the project was completed over a six week period.
Perhaps my bill was 1/3 that of the flashy guys .... but there was a trade-off. As for the use of 'cheap' materials, that was justified by the fact that the customer has some major construction plans, and the items repaired won't be in service for long.
Edited 4/11/2009 6:57 pm ET by renosteinke
I've had people tell me "...but so and so only wants this much to do the work...".
I honestly dont care. my knee jerk response is "then hire so and so".
I want people to call me for a particular reason and that reason is not the cheapest guy in town. I dont market that way and frankly I dont want those jobs
my point is I do not let other contractors bid my work for me. I bring more to the table than most guys, I have more invested and you are never going to get shoddy work.
if you want to work for free join the peace corp
"REMEMBER IT IS ONLY BUSINESS NOTHING PERSONAL...................."
That line made me start wondering....why would he feel the need to insert that in an offer to you?
Then, after reading the above posts and some of you replies it becomes evident that you DID take it personal. That may explain why the former employer felt he had to insert that comment...
Business is business. It's obvious that he is going to do his business in his own way and he's decided on a budget that you are not compatible with. That happens every day in every area of life. Why would that cause a moment's of grief?
You knew how the guy was and you chose to bid a job. You knew your bid was going to be too high and you wouldn't get the job based on those numbers. Now, they guy offers you the job at a lower price and you are mad at him? That doesn't make sense to me. Just say no and move on and be thankful that you have options.
Remember, when you offered that bid, you are contracting now. At the moment you offered the bid, you were selling. You were wearing a sales hat and that hat demands skill and professionalism if you want to close the deal. Your responsibilities as a professional salesperson were numerous and if you really want to be successful you have to .....drum rolls please....SELL YOUR SELF! You have to establish value before you show the price.
Anyways....it looks like Tim is right. You guys are divorced and you probably should never have been married but remember, if you are going to offer bids, don't take it peronally. You don't have to offer bids to people you don't like and if you choose to offer a bid anyways to someone that you dislike, don't be surprised or annoyed if you don't get the job....count your blessings!
I recently went on a bid and found the guy to be quite demeaning. I wavered a bit deciding if I'd bother to offer a bid. I finally decided that I'd spend the half hour figuring the bid and make the offer. I added about 10k for aggravation on top of a 16k bid. I figured that I could make this guy happy by spending a considerable time consulting with him about the level of details that he wanted and get it done and be alright. I didn't want the job though so I decided to make the offer over the phone without taking the time to do a formal bid. That worked for me....he quickly told me that I was much too high and that I need not spend the time drafting a formal contract. I was happy, he was happy...nothing personal!
I've also recently refused to bid on a guys work. I simply told him that we were not capable of delivering that particular project in a professional manner but we'd appreciate the chance to do other projects for him.
Remember....you didn't have to accept his invitation to bid. You didn't have to submit an offer. You didn't have to accept his counter-offer. All of this is voluntary on your part. You have no reason for angst.
It's not personal...it's business.
Blue; you are 100% correct. I did take it personally. That's the risk one carrys when long term and other than business relationships develop.
Not sure you caught that in the thread. Or that fact that I bid the job before he developed his contract for the clients remodel.
Then he offers me less than 1/2 the bid price after the fact? What the hell kind of a way is that to do business? You collect sub bids and either negotiate them at that moment or use them to develop your price on the project contract. Then the subs are paid or contracted at the price they bid.
Why not wait till the sub is done with the job and then try to renogotiate? Cause that not what an ethical businessman does.
Did he do the same with the plumber and electrician? I highly, highly doubt it.
I gave him a quote, he knows the quality of my work like he knows the back of his hand. Don't give me some lame #### about selling Blue.
That wasn't an offer he made me....it was an invitation to drop my drawers.
And yes again; personal. It's all personal Blue. I don't buy into that #### bus/personal. As entrepenuers it's a very fine line at best. And anytime some one prefaces something with "don't take it personally" all the are saying is get ready cause I'm gonna try to shove it up your arse a hard as I can.
I have a lot of respect for you Jim. You offer lots of valuable knowledge and experience to everyone here.
You're off base on this one though and all the preceeding posts support that fact.
But thanks for chiming in. It's always important to hear other views even if they are not what you want to hear.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
"And yes again; personal. It's all personal Blue. I don't buy into that #### bus/personal. As entrepenuers it's a very fine line at best"
If you intend to do business out there in the real world, you probably should grow some thicker skin. I'm closing about 10% of the leads I visit right now and I guess I'd have to jump off a bridge if I was going to get upset everytime someone wanted my services for half price.
Business is business. You made an offer that was rejected. He made a counter offer that was rejected. There is nothing to get upset about. Your business models don't jive. Its just that simple.
Its obvious that the guy has someone else at the lower budget number and wants you to meet that number. A lot of GCs and builders operate that way. That is the way wholesale (you) and retail (works). He's got his selling price and wants his markup. He probably couldn't sell the job at your full price.
Don't get defensive about this. It's not personal. I set budgets all the time and make offers to subs. Some take them, some don't. Sometimes I have to bust my budget, sometimes I get another sub. There's nothing personal about it....it's business!
If you intend to be out there selling though instead of finding another job, I'd encourage you to grab a few books on selling. One of the basic tenets is that you shouldn't take a rejection personally. If you do, you'll end up beating yourself up needlessly. I'm re-reading Zig Ziglar's "Secrets of Closing" and I highly recommend it. In the book, you'll find that you need to practice your sales efforts and guys like your ex boss are great guys to practice on. You really didn't want the job unless you got your price and you've got nothing to lose if you can't move him off his unrealistic budget number. But, you have a lot to gain by using him as a practice session.
Blue,
remember the guy who wrote "rich Dad,poor Dad" ? while looking for something else- I stumbled across another book he wrote with his sister who is a buddhist nunin it he mentioned learning at a seminar or some such thing that there are basically 4 types of people
people who want to WIN
people who want to be RIGHT
People who want to be SAFE
people who want to be LIKED
at first I thought that was bunk---and none of the things seem to be related AND we all want ALL of those things in some form or another but I have come to see-- the guy is right--one of those characteristics eventually comes to dominate or large decision making people who want to win---are attracted to sports, to politics ,to business
people who want to be right---- become teachers,professors, buracrats etc.---and so forth and so on those 4 things-- the more I observe the people around me--- the more clear it becomes--- and I think it often explains why one sitution will be no big deal to one person--and a huge deal to someone else my wife is a person whose motivation is that she wants to be liked---and things will bother her-- that won't cause me a moments distress because I want primarily to win---and I can often win--by letting someone else--be RIGHT--or by showing the customer--that they will be SAFE etc. It took me a couple weeks of observation----- but it becomes so transparent---------
stephen
Interesting theory Stephen.
How (in busuness) would you say two people differ, one that wants to win and one that wants to be right.
I'm not sure I can see a difference.
If I'm right, likely I win. If I won, I must have done something right to win?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
the difference between wanting to WIN-and wanting to be RIGHT is a fun one---once you start looking for it you will see it all around you many different levels to it
an easy one?--- I am a roofing contractor--- does Icegaurd go on OVER the drip edge-or under the drip edge? I have seen it spec.d either way-depending on the brand----so---too me although I prefer OVER the drip edge-- it doesn't matter much.-- some roofers will argue either position relentlessly. If a $16/hour roofer wants to install it under the drip edge- I let him. HE is convinced he is right- but I WIN- by avoiding a time consuming "discussion" and the job progresses according to schedule. I have an older brother--and an older sister-- BOTH ALWAYS have to be RIGHT-- this has penalized them in their careers for 30 plus years. It's very easy to be RIGHT-and lose.salesmen grasp this instinctively---winning means making the sale. I can't WIN( make the sale) if my need to be RIGHT means I have to show the customer they are WRONG. although we all have varying amounts of all 4 characteristics-- in my case being safe isn't a big motivator and being liked isn't much of a motivator either. I have a strong drive to be RIGHT---and a stronger one to WIN--but as a small businessman I get to determine what is winning.
Rationally-we would like to think that being right about something means we are going to WIN--- but it's very easy to be right--and lose. It took me about 3 weeks of pondering this to catch on.
got a brother-in-law?-a guy who "knows everything"?-whatever the topic-- he's an expert?Always has to be right- and show you that you are wrong?--------and yet--why is he living in a trailer on concrete blocks?,LOL
different people have different motivations and drives--and so they will view the exact same situations quite diffentlystephen
Interesting way of looking at folks and I can see a few of those types in my mind.Years ago my Mom bought me a book "Winning thru Intimidation" can't remember the author. The title is misleading, it is how not to get intimidated my people and getting reamed after getting bored! The author gives basic advise on how to get paid for work done, a lot of common sense about documentation and avoiding laywers. I have given it to many friends and they all can put names to the personalities described.His first premise is" ask your self if this job is worth it"? then decide. I have avoided many potential situations by a simple "no thank's". smile and walk.I to when I was younger and more of a bullet head had to be right. soon learned that it cost me big time. I never sell my job to customers, I educate them why something should be done a certian way. Then they can decide. Most people tell me that they didn't understand somethings and they appreciate the information. I may not get That job but I do get calls later. "what do you think of this" and I usually get a job.On present condo gut and redo job had to explain to the banker, I can't mud and paint till the drywall is hung. He was just looking at the #'s with no building experiance and watched a lot of home improvment shows. Can't understand on how they can gut a house and have it ready in an hour but believes it can be done!
I will look for that book---- but I imagine a lot of these books--say much the same thing-just in different words-------and the lesson doesn't sink in untill you hear it in the way that's right for YOU--or at the time that is right for YOUActually-stumbled across much the same lesson---in the NY Times over the weekend
and-- it's amazing I can still walk-let alone climb ladders ---after all the times i have shot myself in the foot over just these same things!
stephen
Can you send me a link to the NY times article?Great minds think alike, fools seldom......
shoemaker1,
I get the times delivered to my doorstep out here in the boonies of Ohio.
the article,I believe, was over the weekend-----probably Saturday---as I just flipped through sundays paper and couldn't find it-- saturdays has already gone out with the recycles. business page I think-- I think what was mentioned was a survey of the top 100 richest americans-or self made americans-something like that
#1 overwelmingly- you had to work for yourself---and #2--- all the top guys said they considered themselves primarily sales people regaurdless of their actual position or industry--success was about selling their ideas, their position, promoting their agenda etc. I imagine it's the same in politics-- you "win" by advancing your point--not by being "right" or showing the other guy is "wrong"--but by effectively advancing your position----so maybe you compromise on something not critical to you--in order to "win" the point that IS critical. lokking at some of my relatives- co workers, etc.-- they will get bogged down arguing about a comparitively minor sub-point-------and then engage in a fight to the finish over something trivial----meanwhile somebody else has walked around the entire conflict-avoided the whole mess---accomplished THEIR goal--and moved on.stephen
got a brother-in-law?-a guy who "knows everything"?-whatever the topic-- he's an expert?Always has to be right- and show you that you are wrong?--------and yet--why is he living in a trailer on concrete blocks?,LOL
Congratulations!
Hazlett receives the 'Good Humor Truth in Print' Award.
Saaalute!View ImageView Image
Oh---My---Gawd!
I never---
this is so un-expected----- you never really think it can happen to you----------
I have labored in obscurity for so many years----but to recieve(sniff sniff)- the recognition of my peers and fellow artists------------------
my mother will be so proud- she never thought I would amount to anything-------
I don't know what to say- I am simply stunned Stephen
it happens
Stephen,
1. Congratulations on your award! We knew you'd earn one someday!
2. What's the name of the book you're talking about? Sounds like one I'd like to read.
Thanks!
mike,
the co-authors name is Robert Kiyosaki. He is fairly well known for a series of books"Rich Dad,Poor Dad"-----which I find almost insultingly simplistic-- and yet still have some important pointsthe book i was refering to-was a book he wrote with his sister who is a buddhist nun, ordained by the Dalai Lama--called rich brother,rich sisterI actually found it by accident at the library while looking for books on buddhism--and recognized Kiyosakis name.
I find his writing style a little hard to take---but I was interested in the premise of the book---which compared the different paths the brother and sister took in life-and their reactions to similar life events.
stephen
Thanks Stephen--
I've read several of Kiyosaki's books, but hadn't heard of this one. The theory makes sense to me.
I never heard that but agreed immediately.
in my personal life ... like here ... I wanna be right.
in business ... I wanna win.
and I do see myself struggle between the two.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Blue's right.
"Then he offers me less than 1/2 the bid price after the fact? What the hell kind of a way is that to do business? You collect sub bids and either negotiate them at that moment or use them to develop your price on the project contract. Then the subs are paid or contracted at the price they bid."
You've played this game long enough to know just because that makes sense doesn't mean that's how most do it.
Most pick a number outta thin air, one they think they can sell the job for ... then try to get the work done for their imaginary numbers. As a sub ... it's the revolving door.
I give my real world number, get told I'm "way too high" ... then I maintain contact.
usually about 18 months later ... after they've been "screwed" by all the guys that agreed to met their impossible number ... I get called in to satisfy their customers.
"even though you're still too high" ...
then after a while the love affair is over ... grass is greener ... other subs are cheaper ... and the revolving door keeps spinning. Depending on their attitude ... I either stay in contact or lose their number.
few and far between are those that get their numbers up front, then have the balls to add it all together and sell their customer on a relatively problem free job.
most just talk the talk.
my favorite was a guy having a panic attack because he couldn't afford to call in a plumber to repair a drain line ... in a full bath gut! Even after I explained while the plumber was twice as expensive as I was ... in all likelyhood he'd be twice as fast ... and ... we'd actually be following local code.
I was all set to bend the rules and do some basic plumbing ... till I opened the subfloor and saw what was there was more than wrong ... and it all needed straightened out. I sweat to god I thot he was going to throw up after making the call.
It was all abs ... took his plumber 3 hrs ... maybe $30 materials.
and he was talking about his whole empire falling ...
amazing. When he asked me to cut my rates on the next job ... he wasn't blowing smoke ... he really did bid stuff like we did when we were 15 yrs old!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa