While in my basement recently, I noticed a wire (12g, I think) that wasn’t stapled completely flat againist the joist. By not flat, I mean that it has some twists that occur about every six inches. Is this something that needs to be replaced or it is okay? The outlets work fin and I haven’t had any problems.
Thanks for the info!
Look closely at these common locations for hazardous materials in older homes.
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Replies
Welcome, see this is your first post. o:
Disregard this first paragraph, as it is tounge in cheeck, and a "hazing"<G> .
When a wire is twisted the electrons need to go around in tight little circles. A guy named Jimmy Maxwell wrote a lot of nice little math stuff in the 1880 on this stuff using wierd terminaology like curls and garients, and showed that for ac currents you could actually measure the effect and calculate the speed of light from what is measured. What this means is that less electrons get to the load thru a twisted wire than thru an absolutely straigt wire, kinda like a kinked an coied up hose vs a straight hose. Jimmy's math can be used to show a thing called pwer factor and harmonic distortion, which aint good.. Now, them there harmonics is just like the harmonics from a guitar or piano, they are higher frequency and dont go as fare as the lower frequencies, hence, ther is less electrons to the load again. Visualize a wire wrapped around the house a few times, those poor electrons got to go round and round afore they get to the outlet. At the power frequency of 60 Hz (50 Hz in Europe), thos little buggers dont even slow down though. Most of Jimmies equations really show electorns slowing doen at 100 Mhz and above (like in FM radio) so, but enough go thru that lotsa radios use a electorstatic link to the power cord for an antenna. Now, take the ratio of 60 to 1E8, and you get the conclusion, which is: .
Final story:
There is no problem whatsoever with what you have ttwisted at 60 Hz if nothing is cut or broken.
Cut or broken or cracked or arcing is a whole 'nuther story, like in polyimide wires in planes (want to hear some fear stories about that ?)
edit1 - added hazing story
edit 2 - garients is mispelled, as is lots of other stuff.
Edited 4/4/2005 6:17 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
Edited 4/4/2005 6:20 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
>>What this means is that less electrons get to the load thru a twisted wire than thru an absolutely straigt wire, kinda like a kinked an coied up hose vs a straight hose. But even though there are fewer electrons, they develop a wicked spin with the twisted wire, and the tangental energy component is thus vastly increased. And, if the twist is properly done to form a double helix, the information capacity is increased by an exponential factor!
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
the tangential energy component is thus vastly increased
But if the tangential energy is polarity-reversed ... the subsequent energy coefficient is lowered to minimally accepted standards. If the tangential energy component is polarity-normal, you are correct, the increase can be substantial.
twist is properly done to form a double helix, the information capacity is increased by an exponential factor
When attempting to create a double helix, if the electrician accidentally forgot to factor the secondary string created by the ground... the resulting deformity could result in defects in the informational capacity. The cure for limp informational capacity is the introduction of the "blue wire" technique... which will increase the electrical flow to the deficient area. <G>
***
Now... back to the original question: If the wires are not damaged... no sweat. As has been said... this WOULD lead me to investigate further to see what other short-cuts were taken with the things that count.
When I see something like this... more times than not... I find wires in the main panel that look like a spaghetti mess.... OR... cut too short and scabbed with jumpers. Worst case I saw was a panel that had #8 wire jumped with #14 romex (literally... it had two wires of the romex ... black and white... wire-nutted to the #8... with both ends of the wire inserted and tightened into the breaker. Couldn't believe it.)
Edited 4/5/2005 12:48 am ET by Rich from Columbus
Thanks for all the info and information about the importance of the double helix. Perhaps the gentleman who discussed the twisted coax could help me with another problem. Should I worry that all my CAT 5 wires are twisted inside the cable jacket? And, how might that affect the double helix, perhaps it might make my high-speed internet connection faster? When you're ready to buy a saw, CNC router or edgebander I'll be happy to discuss the importance of the double helix there...(g)
Seriously though, this woodworker (definitely not an electrician, although adding a new a 220 for my pipe dream sliding table saw would be nice to know how to do) doesn't like the idea of anything hackey. Therefore, I'm going to attempt to untwist/straighten the wire (with the breaker firmly in the off position). Or, would it make sense to replace the wire entirely? The circuit consists only of that wire and goes directly to panel.
Regardless though, I'm looking forward to being part of this forum. And, I certainly appreciate all the help.
Edited 4/5/2005 1:33 am ET by corrib
If you're going to straighten the wire, there's no need to replace it unless it is damaged or too short. Just remove all the staples and clinched over nails, disconnect from one end, and re-install it neatly.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
You should definitely worry about the wires in your Cat 5 cable are twisted, cause if there not, they don't work right. Probably has something to do with the spin of electrons and needing to maintain it. In fact, the difference between Cat 5 and Cat 6 is how tight they are twisted (along with a spline). The biggest problem is how much of the wire is UNTWISTED at the jack.Quiz: Separate the truth from the fiction.
If a double helix is accurately created, then the wires start generating electrical DNA. Then we end up with all kinds of mutated electrical beasties running around.Turns out the anal electricians are just in cohorts with the FWC, that's all...
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
I wanna hear some faer stories...
polyimide??? teach me.
Polyimide (Dupont trade name is Kapton) is one of the best insulating materials known, used etensively on commercial aircraft, spacecraft, etc. due to low weight, high capabilities, etc, etc.
Unfortunately, it also has a tendency to crack with age and vibration/movement.
Since most of what I know would need to be cleared by corporate intellectual property before dispensation, I'd suggest you look at AFRL or NASA websites for more info. Polyimide cracking in extreme environments is probably the ONLY (IMHO) reason to even consider AFI breakers - your house has 99.9999% probabilityof having only PVC insulation unless you are DIY and you are a Boeing, Lockheed, NG, L3 or former MacDac employee. (editorial) My own house maybe has 5% polyimide surplus wire, and I'd not even consider AFI unless FORCED by arrogant greedy mfg codes.
Note to 4Lorn et. Al. : OK I agree beforehand, those jerks who put five octupi on one outlet with frayed cords maybe do need to be protected from themselves, esp. if they cover them with the bedsheet while 'jumping' around on the bed and then falling asleep?
For you old timers, remember when everybody had TV ANTENNAS on their roof vs. cable. Now how come they twisted those wires going down the wall into the house? But when the coax came into use, nobody bothered to twist the coax - again, tongue in cheek , a little bit like Boss Hog's truss quizzes. hint-Can you spell Casper's last name?.
Just look at it this way: Your electrician was leaving a little slack in the cables to accommodate the wood shrinking or expanding. (When given lemons, make lemonade).
Does this have somthing to do with the magnets you put on the fuel lines to align the molecules so you get better gas mileage???
"Does this have somthing to do with the magnets you put on the fuel lines to align the molecules so you get better gas mileage???"
Don't knock those things - Cousin Bubba knows someone who's 2nd cousin's Brother has one. It boosted mileage on his dually pickup with big mud tires truck from 5 MPG to almost 6.
Put me in your big old pickup truck; Take me to the rodeo. [Martaca Berg]
Corrib,
Twisted AC wires = no problem.
Now why don't you go to the tavern and kick dem udder guys buts for giving buthed answers?
SamT
The person that wired it probably pulled their wire from the center of the roll of Romex and did not take out the curls. I can imagine a hardazz inspector not finding it "in a workman like manner" which is a catchall vague line in most codes. I do think it would make him look closer at the rest of the work. I would think that twists really break up any field that is generated.
Some folks pride themselves in super straight, tight runs. Personally I think that might be just a bit too anal. :-)
Bump
FWIW when I talked about being anal by getting all wires straight, etc. I should have added that to most competent electricians things like this are very much like tight mitres and even reveals to a finish carpenter. It is something to separate them from the part of the pack that is toward the rear, not leading.
Edited 4/17/2005 11:15 pm ET by RASCONC
Unless the cable is very tightly twisted, enough to damage it, it is seldom a major issue. On the other hand twisted cables are usually a sign of the person doing the wiring being either an amateur or a hack. The first case being a case of ignorance, and thus somewhat forgivable, versus the later a case of sloppy work, not so forgivable. The later just screams 'hack'.
Possibly, if not just a limited and localized oversight with a gentle twist or two in a few cables, it could be considered a violation of code under the provisions of 110.12 of the 2002 NEC, the latest version I have at hand.: "Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner." Some local authorities will let it slide even if the entire job is done in such a manner. Others won't.
In and of itself it is not an issue, as long as it is within reason and code, but most inspectors, and not a few electricians, would be implicitly asking the bigger question: What else, possibly more critical, did they fail to do in a 'workmanlike manner'. Many will see it as a clue that whoever did the job was either unqualified or uncaring.
Not a problem.
Corrib welcome to BT.
I am not going to try to answer your question as I think it has already been done. But I am going to say this " If you don't get at least a chuckle from these guys and gals once a day then something has gone wrong with your life."
You will also learn a lot from them too. I love watching many of these masters, young and old, learning from each other.
Take some pictures of what your doing and attach them to your posts, keep them small as the dial uppers have a tendance to complain about taking so long to download. Chances are great that we will learn something from you.
The threads that I enjoy the most are in the Photo Gallery.
Let us know where your at. This can be done by filling out your profile faster then reading about helix coils in here, although not as funny.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Just don't get your computer cords twisted like that. It causes big problems if kinked tightly because, while the little "zeros" can slide right through, the little "ones" can get jammed up and then you have to call Roto-'puter.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
I try to be helpful without being encouraging.