Hello All,
We’re working on a basement remodel and came across a wire that is being fed from two breakers. They both must be off to turn off the power. Unfortunately the wire goes up into finished house. We plan on doing some searching to find where the wire is being fed but considering the number of hidden splices we’ve found inside the basement walls I don’t have a lot of confidence in easily finding the source.
My question is “How dangerous is this?” The breakers are on the same phase, otherwise they would trip. If someone is working on the wire and tests for power in the future, they “should” discover the problem. If the problem cannot be easily discovered and corrected would a large note on the back of the cover plate and on the panel box be sufficient? The homeowners are understanding and will pay for my time but this could get very costly very quick. Much of the upstairs is tongue and groove pine – not exactly an easy repair when chasing down down hidden electrical problem!
Thanks!
Eric
Replies
If I was facing what you're describing, I'd back away and tell the HO to call an electrician.
As a carpenter/contractor, my policy about anything electrical that I find on a job which is more complex than changing a light bulb is HANDS OFF!
It's not that I can't do small stuff safely, it's about the license and the liability.
Edited 12/4/2008 9:03 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I've got a call into my electrician. We will still do any demo and repair so I'm trying to get a better feel for what to expect. I'd like to tell the homeowner something besides "that ain't right" and I'm going to charge you lots of money to fix it!! I'm also just personally curious as to what the ramification are.
Eric
Edited 12/4/2008 8:33 pm ET by EricP
For the time being one of the breakers should be left turned off (with tape on it), or, better still, removed entirely and the wire capped off. If both breakers are on there is a serious danger that a short somewhere could start a fire.
Likely the errant connection is in a multi-switch box somewhere. Find all the switches on the circuit and if there are any multi-switch boxes, inspect those.
There of course "shouldn't" be any connections behind the paneling or otherwise concealed, but as you suggest "shouldn't" doesn't apply in this house.
I feed my pumphouse from 2 breakers located in 2 different panels with the feeders in different trenches.
Fire protection and security systems often are fed from 2 (or even more) different breakers routed on 2 different paths.
Of course, all the loads and breakers have a big Yellow caution labels identifing that the circuit is a dual feed and the breakers identified.
The BIG YELLOW CAUTION labels are 4x6" and in an OBVIOUS place on the outside of all boxes with those feeders.
Edited 12/4/2008 9:41 pm ET by junkhound
What are the breakers feeding?
and can u tell what gauge wire it is ?
Just curious as to how the two breakers fed the wire: is there a single wire from each breaker that gets connected to a third, single wire that goes off into a wall somewhere, or does a wire go from one breaker to the next breaker then to a single wir? Reason I ask is I don't think I've ever seen that before. Thanks
You say "wire." Is it a cable? How many conductors? If you have only a hot and a neutral and you need to shut off two breakers there's really only one way that could happen, if the hot is connected to both breakers. That's crazy, but not particularly dangerous since both breakers should trip in an overcurrent condition. It sure is dangerous to work on though.
The much more likely case that comes to mind is you have a shared neutral, and the original cable leaving the panel has three conductors, black on one phase, red on the other. You may be seeing only one leg, which is why it's confusing. In this scenario after shutting off one breaker you'd still find current flowing in the neutral. This is done all the time, or was in the old days. It's still allowed. The breakers are typically adjacent. Nowadays I believe they are supposed to be ganged so they both trip.
It is dangerous, because if there are, say, two 20 amp breakers on the circuit, the circuit is being supplied with 40 amps. A severe overload won't necessarily trip either breaker.One breaker should be kept off, or removed entirely.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Oops, you're right of course.
Oops, you're right of course.
Please edit out the "of course". Dan's head is already too big for some doorways. ;-)
Edited 12/5/2008 12:48 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It's not my head that has trouble fitting through.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Sounds like someone back doored the 110 into 220.
Not legal but it's done.
The wire is 14-2 w/ a ground. Both the breakers are 15 amp and located in the 1st and 5th position thus on the same phase. A seperate piece of 14-2 w/ ground is attached to each breaker and then leaves the box. I don't know what else they are feeding yet. The feed I'm dealing with is the power coming into a switch and feeding a single light on the basement stairs.
Could I simply take out one breaker and see what happens? That seems like the simplest solution. If something doesn't work or the single breaker trips then we can begin invasive surgery!
Thanks All!
Eric
Someone has accidentally wired two circuits together. Like I said, the first place to look is any multi-switch box on the circuit.Until you figure it out leave one breaker turned off.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Someone has accidentally wired two circuits together. Like I said, the first place to look is any multi-switch box on the circuit.
Until you figure it out leave one breaker turned off
Agreed. There is zero reason for 14-2 on the same rail in the same box being connected to 2 breakers - some half-@ssed stuff going on there. Take a pic, disconnect and cap them both, label both as "don't touch", take another pic, and call the electrician. I really like the idea of pulling the breakers as well ... keeps the HO from reconnecting it (or someone half-@ssing it again). Remember: 2 x half @ssed = 1 whole @ss! (made myself laugh at that one).
I've done my fair share of electrical in the past and whenever I'm faced with these situations I indemnify myself from other's stupidity by removing all of it and start from zero. No electricutions or fires to date - doing OK!
"considering the number of hidden splices we've found inside the basement walls...."
there is your answer.
your gut is telling you something and you need to listen.
take clear photos of the service panel as it exists now, print them and have the HO sign them.
disconnect the wires from the breakers and repeat the photo process.
close up the panel and call a licensed, insured, sparky.
doing anything beyond a straight disconnect opens you up to a world of hurt, regardless of the HOs assurances.
breakers are for the protection of the wire, not the appliance plugged into it. an overloaded wire is a potential fire hazard.
keep us posted.
toolman65
hey, that's what I said!